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Why they didnt have maps?

Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea


Mar 11 2015, 1:20pm

Post #1 of 24 (1920 views)
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Why they didnt have maps? Can't Post

Ok I“m sure this has been discussed but why the fellowship didnt have maps?

It would had saves Frodo and Sam the fact to travel with Gollum

I guess is some sort of thig to avoid if they got captured that anyone find hey goal written in some piece of paper

The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true

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noWizardme
Half-elven


Mar 11 2015, 3:10pm

Post #2 of 24 (1883 views)
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Not packing a map [In reply to] Can't Post

yes, this has been discussed before e.g. http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=611297#611297

...but that doesn't mean we can't discuss it again and learn more.Wink

The reasons I've seen advanced for not packing a map are the following - see if any seem right:

No map to be found on your person and undermining your alibi if you are caught

Maps in this era are bulky, artistic rather than scientifically accurate, and not much good for practical travel

Suggestions that travelling with a map might be most unusual in Middle-earth:

People mostly know their way around, or travel with those who do.

Lore, songs etc. partly replace maps (consider Gimli's speech as they come up on the mountains of Moria, whose likeness he knows well from various artworks and songs).

People learn a skill of reading the land without a map (I have no idea how someone would do this, but then I have an infamously bad sense of direction).

Frodo and Sam expected to be escorted by someone who knew the way (Gandalf, presumably) and they naively didn't pack their own map.

I think there's also the issue that Tolkien wants and needs Frodo and Sam to have to rely upon Gollum for a lot of his writing effects (Ursula K LeGuin has gone so far as to say that Gollum can be seen a sort of shadow-Frodo).

~~~~~~

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea


Mar 11 2015, 4:54pm

Post #3 of 24 (1867 views)
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wow thanks for a very elaborated response [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile I salute you

The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true

Survivor to the battle for the fifth trailer

Hobbit Cinema Marathon Hero



noWizardme
Half-elven


Mar 11 2015, 4:55pm

Post #4 of 24 (1858 views)
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You are MOST welcome! :) // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

~~~~~~

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


sador
Half-elven


Mar 11 2015, 6:28pm

Post #5 of 24 (1855 views)
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Well, the simplest answer is [In reply to] Can't Post

that even had they packed maps, nobody would stow them in the pack of one of the hobbits; and the others never got lost.

I also doubt that any map of any reasonable scale was made of either the Emyn Muil or Fangorn - which is were the hobbits do get lost. For such a map to be useful it would need to be extremely detailed, and you can't just provide every member of the Fellowship with enough maps! Even Thorin and co., probably had nothing more useful than the Map of Wilderland which is in the book.

But Boromir should have taken a map when he set out for Imladris. I'll give him the benefit of doubt that he lost it when losing his horse at Tharbad (the alternative is having Wormtongue swindle him out of that at a game of dice - but that doesn't work, considering what Gandalf said, that Saruman overlooked him on his way North; Grima must have missed him).


Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Mar 11 2015, 7:05pm

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We take maps for granted [In reply to] Can't Post

but somebody has to make them before they can exist. I remember being startled when I read Isabella Bird's book "A Lady's Life in the Rocky Mountains", written in 1879. She took a train to Denver, if I recall correctly, and wanted to go to Estes Park, an established town in the mountains (and one Uncle Baggins and I visit almost every weekend.) But she had to wait around Denver for several weeks while she tried to hire a guide to take her there. She couldn't just look at a map and get on the road. There wasn't a map and there wasn't a road, or even a well-marked trail. People who lived in the town mostly just stayed there, with only a few traders going in and out.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



(This post was edited by Aunt Dora Baggins on Mar 11 2015, 7:09pm)


Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea


Mar 11 2015, 8:25pm

Post #7 of 24 (1834 views)
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woah thats amazing [In reply to] Can't Post

I gueess it takes a little work to set our youngster minds into those life conditions, but trully it happened, and Tolkien knew it for sure, thanks for sharing!

The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true

Survivor to the battle for the fifth trailer

Hobbit Cinema Marathon Hero



Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Mar 11 2015, 9:04pm

Post #8 of 24 (1819 views)
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It is hard to wrap our minds around. [In reply to] Can't Post

Of course when we read LotR, we have the map to look at (it shows up in my dreams sometimes, and it certainly is part of my mental illustrations of the story). It's hard to remember that the characters didn't have access to that same information. Aragorn was probably familiar with most of it, because he'd walked most of it. And Gandalf too, and even Boromir had walked from Minas Tirith to Rivendell. But there wasn't a map the others could refer to. I think there was a map of sorts in Rivendell, but it may not have been that complete.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



BlackFox
Half-elven


Mar 11 2015, 9:19pm

Post #9 of 24 (1819 views)
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Yes, there were maps in Rivendell [In reply to] Can't Post

Aragorn and Gandalf walked together or sat speaking of their road and the perils they would meet; and they pondered the storied and figured maps and books of lore that were in the house of Elrond. Sometimes Frodo was with them; but he was content to lean on their guidance, and he spent as much time as he could with Bilbo.
- The Ring Goes South, FOTR

'No,' said Gandalf. 'But you see further ahead in the clear light. Beyond those peaks the range bends round south-west. There are many maps in Elrond's house, but I suppose you never thought to look at them?'
'Yes I did, sometimes,' said Pippin, 'but I don't remember them. Frodo has a better head for that sort of thing.'

- The Ring Goes South, FOTR

[Pippin] wondered very much what kind of folk [the Rohirrim] were. He wished now that he had learned more in Rivendell, and looked more at maps and things; but in those days the plans for the journey seemed to be in more competent hands, and he had never reckoned with being cut off from Gandalf, or from Strider, and even from Frodo.
- The Uruk-Hai, TTT

'No, not any clear notion, Sam,' Frodo answered. 'In Rivendell before I set out I was shown a map of Mordor that was made before the Enemy came back here; but I only remember it vaguely.'
- The Land of Shadow, ROTK



CuriousG
Half-elven


Mar 11 2015, 9:24pm

Post #10 of 24 (1813 views)
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As a Coloradan, that's fascinating [In reply to] Can't Post

And Colorado is full of mountain mining towns. Just think how hard it was to reach them in the 1800s if you needed a guide! When I think of touristy places like Estes Park today, it's hard to imagine NOT finding or hearing about it. We do take a lot for granted.

If you go farther back in history, when barbarian armies invaded Europe, they didn't always know where major cities were (to pillage and plunder them) and needed guides to reach them (guides were either paid or forced into service). You'd think that since they were invading, they should have a map first, but people didn't think that way.

And it wasn't so ancient. I recall Napoleon needing guides for some of his army movements, and that was in the 1800s. But even now (2015), there are young people who see no need for maps and feel like GPS has always been here, always will be, so just use it instead of folding and unfolding those big pieces of paper.


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Mar 11 2015, 11:59pm

Post #11 of 24 (1804 views)
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Yes, maps were precious and rare. [In reply to] Can't Post

Even after printing technology came along, printing drawings was complicated. Imagine doing the equivalent of an engraving such as Albrecht Durer's drawings; a map of Middle Earth of any degree of accuracy would be large, and probably require many pages. The maps in Rivendell were almost certainly hand-drawn, and possibly the only ones in existence for some of the territory.








Elizabeth
Half-elven


Mar 12 2015, 12:02am

Post #12 of 24 (1804 views)
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There was, of course, Thrain's map. [In reply to] Can't Post

It was not very large, and easy to carry. On the other hand, if it had been your only navigational aid, it would probably not have been sufficient for one who wasn't already fairly familiar with the territory.








Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Mar 12 2015, 12:18am

Post #13 of 24 (1800 views)
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Maps to look at but not to take with you. [In reply to] Can't Post

I grew up with the free maps at gas stations; when we went on family trips, my dad would pick up one for each of us kids and we'd follow our route from the back seat. So it's hard to remember how rare maps used to be.

The hobbits would have had to either memorize the maps or make hand-drawn copies, and it sounds like they didn't do either.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



squire
Half-elven


Mar 12 2015, 12:41am

Post #14 of 24 (1798 views)
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"How rare maps used to be" [In reply to] Can't Post

Maps are disappearing again. I've been trying, since I moved to a new town, to get maps of the local roads. Gas stations, stationery stores, and bookstores don't carry maps any more. Because no one buys them.

Now, it's not the same as the situation in Middle-earth, or the middle ages that we've been learning about here. Maps in our world are more ubiquitous than ever. They've simply left the realm of paper for the realm of electrons and liquid crystals.

I've always loved this passage in Book IV, in The Two Towers:
They were not going quick enough for Gollum. By his reckoning it was nearly thirty leagues from the Morannon to the cross-roads above Osgiliath, and he hoped to cover that distance in four journeys.
Um... OK. Gollum knows the distance is about ninety miles, and can do the math for the minimum time it takes to cover the distance. He's got quite a map in his head! You can imagine how Aragorn or the other nobles manage - or Ghan buri ghan.



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Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Mar 12 2015, 12:55am

Post #15 of 24 (1789 views)
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True. I use Mapquest now. [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't know how I ever managed without it.

Yes, I should add Gollum to my list of people who know the terrain well from having covered it on foot.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Mar 12 2015, 12:19pm

Post #16 of 24 (1758 views)
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Boromir rode much of the way. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Of course when we read LotR, we have the map to look at (it shows up in my dreams sometimes, and it certainly is part of my mental illustrations of the story). It's hard to remember that the characters didn't have access to that same information. Aragorn was probably familiar with most of it, because he'd walked most of it. And Gandalf too, and even Boromir had walked from Minas Tirith to Rivendell.



Boromir set out to ride to Rivendell. If I remember right, he lost his horse in Tharbad, crossing the Greyflood.

Good maps would have been rare and often out of date. An obsolete map of Wilderland might have indicated that the best way through Mirkwood was to take the Old Forest Road with no indication that the eastern end of the road had become impassable in recent years.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


noWizardme
Half-elven


Mar 12 2015, 2:25pm

Post #17 of 24 (1741 views)
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Thrain's map is a great example. [In reply to] Can't Post

Thrain's map is very much a sketch map: it sites Erebor East of Mirkwood (East being up in Dwarven maps as it was in medieval Christian maps). It cautions that Mirkwood has spiders and an Elven King, and notes that the Great Wyrms came from the North and "here was Girion, Lord in Dale" (more history points than practical geography).

It's interesting to contrast that with the much more modern-looking maps the Tolkiens made to assist with writing (and to assist readers)

So, as Elizabeth says, Thrain's map is not much use as your only navigational aid. But perhaps that was not really its true purpose - it contains information, partly a concealed message in "Moon Runes", revealing the location of an important secret door.

~~~~~~

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


noWizardme
Half-elven


Mar 12 2015, 3:58pm

Post #18 of 24 (1703 views)
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I think another historical problem was - who is going to pay for (expensive) accurate maps [In reply to] Can't Post

Systematic mapping of Britain - a compact and wealthy nation - really only began in the 18th Century, with mapping of militarily significant areas of Scotland (where there was a rebellion) and the South Coast (in case of invasion by Napoleon).

before then...


Quote
The existing ways of providing maps - by a haphazard blend of private surveys, military mapping when invasion scares arose, and scientific observations (occasionally helped along by a little official patronage) - must have been perceived as adequate in method and end-product.

A History of the Ordnance Survey, WA Seymour (Ed) Ch 1
http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/...-ordnance-survey.pdf


Apart from the cost there are all kinds of practical issues - surveyors needing access to everyone's land, for example.

So maybe mapping ventures are a bit like making the Internet - originally for specialized purposes, including military ones. Of course, once maps exist & are easily available, they have all kinds of other uses (like the Internet does...).

I suppose also that military people have needs that other map users don't. A general traveller might only need to know that the road passes to the east of a hill (don't try passing on the west because of a bog). But a General wants to know how much of the road can be controlled from the hill; whether this hill overlooks that one, and whether the bog is passable: the detail of where troops might be concealed or moved to control an area. A general traveller might be inconvenienced by an unexpected extra camp because the road was longer than expected; a General might lose the battle because he (not she in those days!) had not allowed enough time to bring up re-inforcements.

Back in Middle-earth in Frodo's time there is an invasion scare, but something of a lack of an authority able to send out cartographers!

~~~~~~

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


balbo biggins
Rohan


Mar 12 2015, 4:49pm

Post #19 of 24 (1695 views)
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why didnt they do lots if things, feeding 9 people would be a nightmare! [In reply to] Can't Post

its just one of those things that breaks the whole illusion if you try to get into details when reading a fantasy book! there of course a few explanations like they hadnt made many, inaccurate, too precious, youd need more than one, more reliable to use knowledge, etc etc

if you worry about this then youve got to worry how hobbits dispose of fecal matter in buckland, or the infant mortality rate of dwarves, or how the economys looking, or if gondor was better off as a republic.


(This post was edited by balbo biggins on Mar 12 2015, 4:59pm)


Darkstone
Immortal


Mar 12 2015, 4:52pm

Post #20 of 24 (1695 views)
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Also the problem of deliberately inaccurate maps. [In reply to] Can't Post

That road that supposedly leads straight to a nation's capital might actually dead-end in a swamp.

Commonly available maps of the Soviet Union were notoriously inaccurate in order to hinder foreign invasion as well as the free internal movement of citizens. Even today Russian maps tend to be unreliable, but mainly to ensure foreigners hire a state-sponsored guide. (Greed has replaced paranoia. Yay, capitalism!)

I'd wager any maps of Mordor and its environs would be equally as suspect. ("Secret unguarded entrance here!")

Of course even good guy maps can be deliberately inaccurate. For example, The Great East Road does *not* go through Rivendell even though it's clearly marked as doing so on the map Tolkien so thoughtfully provides us. (You didn't think finding the hidden Elven refuge of Rivendell would be *that* easy, did you?)

******************************************
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a wonderful town!!!
Mount Doom blew up,
And the Black Tower's down!!
The orcs all fell in a hole in the ground!
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a heckuva town!!!

-Lord of the Rings: The Musical, music by Leonard Bernstein, lyrics by Betty Comden and Adolph Green


Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea

Mar 13 2015, 10:19pm

Post #21 of 24 (1627 views)
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There were maps in Rivendell [In reply to] Can't Post

But were they up to date maps? Elves at that time been people that were mostly lost in the past and given their experience, would the maps have been of places of 3 thousand years ago?


BlackFox
Half-elven


Mar 13 2015, 10:37pm

Post #22 of 24 (1625 views)
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We know the map of Mordor wasn't [In reply to] Can't Post

'No, not any clear notion, Sam,' Frodo answered. 'In Rivendell before I set out I was shown a map of Mordor that was made before the Enemy came back here; but I only remember it vaguely.'
- The Land of Shadow, ROTK




Ethel Duath
Half-elven


Mar 14 2015, 5:41pm

Post #23 of 24 (1578 views)
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I so value maps, that [In reply to] Can't Post

I simply go online and print out 2 versions of a Google map for where I want to go (zoomed out and zoomed in). I use screenshots to pinpoint the areas I want.

I haven't check lately, but I wonder if AAA still stocks real maps.

The GPS dependency creates some funny moments sometimes. A young adult family member was GPS guiding our driving route on a trip up the East Coast. It worked fine until we hit a construction detour. Family member says in an exasperated tone, "What do we do now?" since the area was entirely unfamiliar.

My reply of "follow the signs" was met with a (possibly embarrassed/skeptical) dead silence.

I still don't know if the lesson was learned, but the signs were well placed and we got back to GPS land in about 4 miles and a few turns.



dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Mar 19 2015, 2:24am

Post #24 of 24 (1403 views)
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They still do! [In reply to] Can't Post

I like to get a fresh set of state and local cities maps from AAA annually.

I take MapQuest maps with a grain of salt, ever since a sister-in-law followed one and ended up on a dead-end street which her map insisted connected into our street. Tongue

"Sign? What's a "sign", and how do we follow it?" I can just imagine! Laugh


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"




 
 

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