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lionoferebor
Rohan
Mar 10 2015, 4:32pm
Post #1 of 10
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King vs Lord; Prince vs Lord
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This question is more for those of you in the U.K. and other countries more familiar with a monarchy than those of us here in the States.
I'm currently in the development stages of a piece of Hobbit fan-fiction and I need to know if there is a difference between a king and a lord. I've often heard these titles used interchangeably, but are they really equal in status? And if a king does outrank a lord, where would a prince (the king's heir) fall in line? Would the prince outrank the lord as well, or would he be of equal or lesser status?
Thanks to anyone who can offer insight on this.
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Elarie
Grey Havens
Mar 10 2015, 10:39pm
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OK, I'm not British, but just from things that I've read
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"Lord" isn't really a rank, like King or Prince - it's more a form of respectful address to a male member of the nobility. I'm not even sure if Kings and Princes actually get addressed as "My Lord" in real life. I think kings are addressed as "Your Majesty" and princes are addressed as "Your Highness". There are charts online that list all the British ranks and titles and so on, like this one, that can explain it in more detail:
http://en.wikipedia.org/...n_the_United_Kingdom
__________________
Gold is the strife of kinsmen,
and fire of the flood-tide,
and the path of the serpent.
(Old Icelandic Fe rune poem)
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Gianna
Rohan
Mar 11 2015, 12:41am
Post #3 of 10
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But I enjoy medieval fiction based in England (that is actually based in accurate history  ). I think that whilst a king was the ruler of a kingdom, a lord was a ruler of an estate of a certain size or importance, and was subject to the king. As Elarie said, 'lord' may've been more just how people addressed a baron or earl or whatever, rather than an actual rank - but the king still outranks him. So yes, the prince would outrank the lord as well, because the prince is of course in line for the throne whereas the lord is not.
As a fellow writer, I hope your fanfiction goes well! 
~There's some good left in this world. And it's worth fighting for.~
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lionoferebor
Rohan
Mar 11 2015, 12:52am
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As I said I'm only in the development/research stage. I needed to know this because I'm trying to figure out where Fili and Kili stand in comparison to Dain.
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Gianna
Rohan
Mar 11 2015, 1:02am
Post #5 of 10
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I think Fili and Kili were higher in rank
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...because as Thorin's nephews they were in a more direct line of succession to the throne (if Fili hadn't died, he would've been King under the Mountain, then Kili, finally Dain).
~There's some good left in this world. And it's worth fighting for.~
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Mar 11 2015, 1:53am
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There are several kinds of Princes.
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Some are children of Kings or Queens, but others are actually sitting rulers in smaller realms. The ruler of Monaco, for example, is a Prince, as is the ruler of Liechtenstein. Prince Imrahil, in RotK, was the ruler of a land with ties to Gondor.
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dreamflower
Lorien
Mar 11 2015, 2:59am
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Tolkien didn't really use "proper" titles
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Or at least not modern ones.
As pointed out Lord and Lady are forms of address. They don't have to do with rank. A King or prince would outrank a duke, earl, or baron. But those ranks don't seem to exist in M-e.
He does not have the King addressed as "Your Majesty", nor are the Princes or Princesses addressed as "Your Highness". No one is called "Your Lordship".
They are often called "Lord" or "Lady" if they are nobility or royalty. However, Tolkien never has a formal occasion in TH or LotR in which they'd be announced. In my own earliest fic, I did use "majesty" and so on, until I realized it didn't fit. Now if I need my royalty announced, I use "Your Grace". Nowadays that's used for a prince or a bishop, but at one time it was also used for the monarchs as well.
My usage is probably not quite correct either, but it feels less intrusive to me.
The one thing I always try to remember, is that in Rohan, the Rohirrim always say Theoden King, and not King Theoden.
So far as I know, in TH, we don't ever see Thorin called King Thorin, but sometimes Thorin, King Under the Mountain, which is a little wordy.
Some people call it fanfiction. I call it story-internal literary criticism.
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MarionH
Registered User
Mar 11 2015, 9:32am
Post #9 of 10
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I'm British, and no spring chicken (i.e. reasonably au fait with the disappearing formality of previous times). So much for my credentials!
A lord is a male member of the nobility. The aristocracy has several ranks, as others have pointed out: 'lord' is the generic term that refers to them all, including family members of title-holders (Dukes, Earls etc.) who have no title of their own.
Lord (with a capital L) is a term of respect used when addressing or referring to a man of high birth, specifically an earl, marquess, baron or viscount. It's also a courtesy title given to the younger sons of a duke or marquess. And it's the ceremonial title given to certain high officials - Lord Mayor, the Law Lords - and to bishops and archbishops.
And by the way, if a member of the professional classes was speaking to, for example, Lord David Carlyle, Earl of Prestwick, the proper mode of address is Lord David, not Lord Carlyle. 'My Lord' implies a greater degree of respect, and would normally have been used by a member of the lower classes - a servant, what I think Americans would call a 'blue collar' worker, or a member of their family.
But, as others have said, JRRT seems to have used the term more flexibly, as a term of respect when addressing or referring to anybody with authority. He also uses it as a title: e.g. Gimli was known as the Lord of the Glittering Caves after moving to Aglarond. When used this way it's not clear, as far as I'm aware, whether the title is bestowed by a central authority figure or whether it's just that people started calling him that and it stuck. (Contrast with Elessar making Faramir Prince of Ithilien.)
Hope you find that helpful, rather than confusing!
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