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Pandallo
Rivendell
Mar 10 2015, 11:29am
Post #1 of 36
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The Witch-King's thought in his final minutes
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There is an interesting way that the Professor chose to go about discussing what was going on in the minds of the combatants of Eowyn and the Witch-King.
When Eowyn announces that she is no man the Witch-King pauses, as if he is in doubt and suddenly afraid.
Is this in relation to the Witch-King's dawning realization that this was the Prophecy stated by Glorfindel long ago?
If the Witch-King realized this why did he strike forward if knowing his doom was at hand? To this point the Witch-King had been fairly tactical using terror to its great effect and he had just managed to slay one of the Commanders on the field which would have shaken the morale of all of his foes.
So why did he risk the Prophecy coming true by standing against this person that even gave him pause in fear that she was the destined one that would be his doom?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Mar 10 2015, 2:26pm
Post #2 of 36
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He didn't 'know' his doom was at hand.
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The Witch-king couldn't know that Eowyn would fulfill the prophesy. If he backed down then he would appear craven before his lieutenants and troops. And, if he killed her first, the prophesy would be stymied.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Mar 10 2015, 2:48pm
Post #3 of 36
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I don’t think the Witch King was necessarily aware of Glofindel’s prophecy which was uttered to King Earnur a thousand years before the Pelennor Battle. Why would he be?
The Witch King’s hesitation may have simply be that he was somewhat surprised to be confronted by a woman…
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Mar 10 2015, 7:30pm
Post #4 of 36
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I don’t think the Witch King was necessarily aware of Glofindel’s prophecy which was uttered to King Earnur a thousand years before the Pelennor Battle. Why would he be?
I have absolutely no doubt that the Witch-king had knowledge of the prophesy, although I don't know when he would have learned of it. It was specifically about the Lord of the Nazgul; I'm sure that someone would have made him aware of it at some point. His own boast is a reference to it.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Brethil
Half-elven
Mar 10 2015, 8:24pm
Post #5 of 36
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I have absolutely no doubt that the Witch-king had knowledge of the prophesy, although I don't know when he would have learned of it. It was specifically about the Lord of the Nazgul; I'm sure that someone would have made him aware of it at some point. His own boast is a reference to it. And that there is a certain amount of willful misinterpretation by the W-K in the statement. Glorfindel clearly must speak by a sense of prophetic vision, and the wording is beautifully crafted to allow for the unexpected sex substitution as the moment happens. It is also a glimmer into the inherent Firstborn wisdom of Glorfindel himself: in stating the prophecy is indeterminate (yet truthful) terms, he does not preclude that fate will have its day; instead, those very words are a weapon in the W-K's mind which turn against him. It is only the W-K's arrogance that translates Glorfindel's words ... "Do not pursue him! He will not return to these lands. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man shall he fall." ... into a wholesale devaluation of the entire race of Men, and give him that false sense of security. I think its a lovely, linguistic bit of eucatastrophe and an elegant lesson in humility.
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Mar 10 2015, 9:50pm
Post #6 of 36
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There are few absolute “absolutes”…
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My inquiry just brought up the possibility that the Witch King was unaware of any prophesy. But he could have been aware that he could not be killed “by the hand of man” without being aware of any prophesy. (Yes, I push the boundaries of logic; but if we’re talking “absolutes”??)
As he says ’Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!’ This seems to be the braggadocio that you refer to.
You say yourself that you don’t know when he would have learned of it (the prophesy). This gives us a small, albeit very small, out on whether the WK knew of any prophesy.
…but the Ringwraith made no answer, and was silent, as if in sudden doubt.
Possibly, just possibly, this doubt was that he was unaware he was exchanging boasts with a woman. If there is other textual evidence I’m not aware of it.
But, but, BUT, I agree with you and Brethil that he DID know of the Prophesy. (Uh. . . would you please reread that sentence…) But absolutely, positively, as sure as death and taxes? There IS a teeny doorway into doubt.
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Pandallo
Rivendell
Mar 10 2015, 11:40pm
Post #7 of 36
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I don't think that would have mattered in this case...
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The Witch-King had just defeated one of their chief commanders and as someone obtained the proper quote...
"…but the Ringwraith made no answer, and was silent, as if in sudden doubt."
I believe he was fully aware of the prophecy and he was beginning to piece two-and-two together when he decided to throw caution to the wind, I can't say that it would be that odd for him to see a woman combatant having fought Elves before and knowing full well that one of their chief commanders is a woman.
I can't see that a fell commander would suddenly shrink back, unable to answer his foe, just because she was a woman, at most I could have seen if the Professor had written something like "the Ringwraith made no answer, as if slightly perturbed." but I don't think the Witch-King would care about gender Except where it would come to the prophecy which I believe was the cause for his sudden doubt in facing Eowyn.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Mar 11 2015, 12:25am
Post #8 of 36
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However, we are talking about my absolute opinion, not an absolute fact.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Mar 11 2015, 12:56am
Post #9 of 36
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Although…
I believe he was fully aware of the prophecy and he was beginning to piece two-and-two together when he decided to throw caution to the wind, I can't say that it would be that odd for him to see a woman combatant having fought Elves before and knowing full well that one of their chief commanders is a woman. (my emphasis) Of course Eowyn was not an Elf, (I’m sure you didn’t mean so).
Eowyn/Dernhelm not only was not a “chief commander” she was given explicit orders by Theoden to not to ride with the Rohirrim but to remain behind and “govern the folk in my stead.”
Thus Eowyn (and Merry) were covert tag-alongs of no authority.
Also what would make the Witch King think that one of their “chief commanders” was a woman?
And the Witch King was NOT aware of her sex until she identified herself.
’But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Eowyn I am, Eomund’s daughter.’
I as have said the Witch King’s sudden doubt or hesitation could have been his surprise at facing a female Man, (could have).
Yet I continue to say that the Witch King was (only most likely) aware of the prophesy of Glorfindel. But, until someone unearths some textual reference that I am unaware of, there still are no “absolutes” in this case.
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Mar 11 2015, 1:09am
Post #10 of 36
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There can be "absolute facts".
But is "absolute opinion" an oxymoron? (close) 
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Pandallo
Rivendell
Mar 11 2015, 2:31am
Post #11 of 36
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By Elves and Their chief commander I was referring to Galadriel Not the innocuous soldier Dernhelm (her commanding officer likely knew that Merry and she were in the unit, but likely had too much respect for her to reveal this to anyone.)
I suppose I didn't make that obvious enough. Granted the Witch-King may not have actually ever fought Galadriel I would be certain that he knew of her and was fully aware that women can at times in the ranks of his foes be commanders.
Hence I can't see why his doubt would be from fighting a woman, unless his sudden doubt was related to the prophecy, but again this is just opinion. Personally to me it makes the moment incredible and is one of my favorites in the books because it shows a fully realistic human concept of a fear of a pre-ordained fate if only for a moment. Without that, to me the moment feels rather cheapened.
(This post was edited by Pandallo on Mar 11 2015, 2:32am)
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aruman
Rivendell
Mar 11 2015, 3:09am
Post #12 of 36
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That when he said, "No living man may hinder me," he was referring to the prophecy. I also assumed that this was the reason why he was in doubt after she revealed that she was, in fact, a woman.
i would have a hard time buying any other explanation for his sudden hesitation.
In the movies Elrond, Denethor, Haldir, Galadriel, and Celeborn stink.
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Mar 11 2015, 12:06pm
Post #13 of 36
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I as have said the Witch King’s sudden doubt or hesitation could have been his surprise at facing a female Man, (could have).
Yet I continue to say that the Witch King was (only most likely) aware of the prophesy of Glorfindel. But, until someone unearths some textual reference that I am unaware of, there still are no “absolutes” in this case.
Appendix A also states that the Witch-king feared Boromir (not that Boromir, the other Boromir): "Boromir was a great captain, and even the Witch-king feared him. He was noble and fair of face, a man strong in body and in will, but he recieved a Morgul-wound in that war..." Appendix A
Glorfindel's words about the Witch-king were spoken in Third Age 1975, and this Boromir defeated the Uruks who had taken Osgiliath (well not by himself, probably). He regained Ithilien although Osgiliath was finally ruined in 2475.
So this man, feared by the Witch-king, was whacking Uruks roughly 500 years after Glorfindel's prophecy. Some have said the passage means that the Witch-king feared this Boromir due to his leadership and tactical skills, that is, because he was a great captain. I disagree with that, or at least that that is the only reason, noting that (to my mind) Tolkien seems to immediately give a few other reasons why he should be feared: he was strong in body and will.
I especially note Boromir's strong will, as one arguably needs a strong will to master the unreasoning fear of a wraith, to be able to fight him in the first place.
Again, if my math holds up ("if") this man was routing the "new" uruks (newly out of Mordor) about 500 years after Glorfindel spoke.
If that means anything 
Anyway I'm with you, unless there is something I'm forgetting, in which case I suddenly, possibly disagree with you :cough:
... I'm with you in that the Witch-king's boast and reaction don't necessarily refer to the prophecy. I think Tolkien chose his words here to purposely "echo" the prophecy -- the Wraith's words touching off Eowyn's revelation that she is not a man -- but that's external to the tale of course.
According to the scops of the Mark both Eowyn and Merry fulfilled the prophecy, as she was not a man, and Master Holdwine was not a Man (Appendix A, footnote about Eowyn in the section about the Rohirrim).
Also, I think in a letter Tolkien notes that the Witch-king was given more power sometime before the battle with Gondor in The Return of of the King, giving him even more reason to say something like: "nobody can stop me now"...
... which is not quite as poetic as in the book, admittedly. Again I think Tolkien does "tickle" the prophecy here on purpose, but in a way that leaves the door open enough, as you say...
... unless someone proves that the Witch-king certainly knew; then, as I say, I disagree with you.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Mar 11 2015, 12:18pm)
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Mar 11 2015, 12:39pm
Post #14 of 36
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Stressing that line about the Boromir matter. That is, I realize the Witch-king could have known about the prophecy when this Boromir was around, but realized that predictions don't make one invulnerable in any case (and so he could still fear him even for the reasons I think he feared him)...
... even if one thinks Elves like Glorfindel are likely enough to speak truth.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Mar 11 2015, 12:44pm)
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Mar 11 2015, 1:44pm
Post #15 of 36
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“Assumed" (a non-absolute) is the operative word here….
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I always assumed...That when he said, "No living man may hinder me," he was referring to the prophecy. I also assumed that this was the reason why he was in doubt after she revealed that she was, in fact, a woman.
i would have a hard time buying any other explanation for his sudden hesitation.
I too admit to having “a hard time buying any other explanation for his sudden hesitation”.
But the possibility (as opposed to the impossibility) does exist.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Mar 11 2015, 2:43pm
Post #16 of 36
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The Witch King has just baled on a showdown with Gandalf at the Gate - and the darkness has broken too soon. Understandable if he's not feeling as confident as before, but he can't keep on running from just anyone.
I'd assumed that the Witch King has been given pause by the way he gets such a prompt and unexpected answer to his trash talk of prophecies. But I don't read it as he's terrified, or convinced his end has come. He must after all have dispatched a number of non-men foes in his time, and with a number of non-men around, death by dwarf, elf, orc, surfeit of ice-cream etc. must always have been a possibility (OK,I'm not confident about the ice-cream).
Anyway it's the hobbit (are hobbits "men"?) behind him he needs to worry about in the first instance!
It also works though, if the WK *is* thrown into doubt and despair. This episode bears strong (and I think deliberate) resemblance to Shakespeare's Macbeth. And Macbeth chooses to fight - the old northern virtue of courage: if you must die, die fighting.
Another thought that has just come to me is that Gandalf says that a mortal owner of a Great Ring "merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness" (FOTR Book I CH2). And maybe that gives the WK a reason not to flee, if he thinks the end has come?
--
If anyone's interested, the Macbeth angle is:
King Macbeth having murdered his way to the throne as a result of a first set of prophecies, is now uneasy. He goes back to the witches for reassurance and is shown apparitions that tell him:
(1) "Macbeth! Macbeth! Macbeth! beware Macduff; Beware the thane of Fife. Dismiss me. Enough" [This will turn out to be good advice, but Macbeth's efforts to act on it backfire] (2) Be bloody, bold, and resolute; laugh to scorn The power of man, for none of woman born shall harm Macbeth. [This will turn out to have a loophole] (3) Be lion-mettled, proud; and take no care Who chafes, who frets, or where conspirers are: Macbeth shall never vanquish'd be until Great Birnam wood to high Dunsinane hill Shall come against him. [This will turn out to be bad advice and has a loophole, though a rather lame one.] http://www.shakespeare-online.com/plays/macbeth_4_1.html
#2 is the obvious parallel, but the others are relevant too.
Macbeth responds by attempting to kill Macduff. His men kill Macduff's wife and child instead, making Macduff one of Macbeth's implacable enemies. So Macduff invades Scotland in Malcolm's army, which cuts boughs from Birnam Wood for camouflage for their advance on Macbeth and Dunsinane.
Tolkien, I read, thought that this mechanism of getting Great Birnam wood to high Dunsinane hill was a bit lame - I've seen it suggested that t might be the germ of his Ents, who could more literally advance on an enemy fortress....
Macbeth meanwhile is a tragic (in several senses) figure, hollowed out by the evils he's done through his ambition until only his courage is left as a virtue. But that, and the reassurance of prophecy #2, makes him set out to battle. He knows his situation is hopeless and considers falling on his sword (but reasons nicely that gashes look better on other people) There he meets Macduff, who he has been avoiding: not through cowardice, but because "my soul is too much charged with blood of tine already". He then reveals #2 - possibly to warn Macduff off. Macduff, however, represents a loophole ("Macduff was from his mother's womb untimely ripped" - that is born by caesarean section).
Bit of a weak argument, if you ask me - I think Macbeth might win on appeal Being a woman is a better loophole, I think (though it wouldn't be a loophole in Macbeth of course given the exact wording of #2 (you'd have to make it "no man of woman born shall harm Macbeth").
Anyways, Macbeth is shaken but decides to fight anyway:
I throw my warlike shield: lay on Macduff;
And damn'd be him that cries "Hold, enough!"
Macduff then kills and beheads him offstage. Saves on special effects.
I'm not saying that Tolkien is trying to set up an exact parallel with Macbeth. But I do think he's been having fun playing with some ideas from there.
Among the obvious differences are that Macbeth is a tragic character - the audience has watched his moral collapse for the whole play, whereas we don't know whether the WK was ambitious and weak like Macbeth, or a nasty piece of work from the first. I doubt the WK would avoid opponents because he felt guilty about what he'd done to them already. Nor do we know whether the WK has been led on and reassured by ambiguous promises and weasel words like Macbeth has. The prophecy concerning the WK has been made by his enemy, not by his mentor. And so on.
Whether the WK dies feeling tricked and betrayed and misled, as Macbeth probably does, we therefore can't tell.
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Mar 11 2015, 3:13pm
Post #17 of 36
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"…but the Ringwraith made no answer, and was silent, as if in sudden doubt." I note "as if". In the conceit Tolkien only translated the tale, and the "author(s)" can only guess at the wraith's mind at this point. From an external perspective Tolkien (or the "author") could have, at this point anyway, more directly told the reader (something like): "... and was silent, in sudden doubt."
But even if so, Eowyn does not simply reveal that she is not a man but a woman here, but everything that the Wraith had said up to this point wasn't scaring her off. And directly after her revelation that she is no man, she continues: "You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead I will smite you, if you touch him."
After all this, he is silent. Here is not only a woman on the field, but one which he was not scaring away! Even one who threatened to smite him! Earlier the Nazgul voices had this ultimate effect...
"More unbearable they became, not less, at each new cry. At length even the stout-hearted would fling themselves to the ground as the hidden menace passed over them, or they would stand, letting their weapons fall from nerveless hands while into their minds a blackness came, and they thought no more of war; but only of hiding and of crawling, and of death."
And as the Black Captain himself: "But it is the Black Captain that defeats us. Few will stand and abide even the rumour of his coming. His own folk quail at him, and they would slay themselves at his bidding." And for example "In rode the Lord of the Nazgul, under the archway that no enemy ever yet had passed, and all fled before his face.' (all save one: Gandalf upon Shadowfax).
So again, it is not only a woman who is revealed (unexpectedly), but a woman who does not flee, stands her ground and threatens him! Could be grounds for doubt. All we really know for sure, at this point, is that The Lord of the Nazgul was silent after Eowyns statements...
... although a bit later the "author" does state more directly: "... but the Black Captain, in doubt and malice intent upon the woman before him...'
Then the beast (the Nazgul's steed) attacked Eowyn: "Still she did not blench:..."
And then some other stuff happened
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Mar 11 2015, 3:26pm
Post #18 of 36
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Anyway it's the hobbit (are hobbits "men"?) behind him he needs to worry about in the first instance!
They are a branch of the Human race (Tolkien, letters), but in any case "in story" they themselves draw distinction, at times, between Hobbits and Men, the Big Folk.
Also the scops of the Mark (Appendix A, footnote on Eowyn's deed) consider Eowyn to have fulfilled the prophecy (not being a man), and Merry (not being a Man, but a Halfling) as well.
Merry being Master Holdwine in the footnote, of course.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Mar 11 2015, 3:28pm)
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Mar 11 2015, 3:41pm
Post #19 of 36
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By the way I don't mean to imply that a woman is more likely than a man to run away in fear from the Nazgul-lord... all I'm saying is that we have the combination of a woman (unexpected), and a person (still unexpectedly a woman from the Wraith's point of view) who does not flee...
... while other persons might, and seemingly do, flee or blench... or whatever.
Thought I would try to clarify, just in case
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Mar 11 2015, 4:37pm
Post #20 of 36
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Quite - the surprise might be: "Why U no run (did I get into a non scary light somehow)?"
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(Bigger here: http://personalitycafe.com/...s-meme-comics-2.html )
I completely read the captions in a Miranda Otto voice there. There is no hope for me at all .
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Mar 11 2015, 4:48pm
Post #21 of 36
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To add to this - Tolkien's usual trick: who is giving this account?
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Whose account are we reading here (given Tolkien's framing device that he is merely the translator of the Red Book of Westmarch)? We're not reading the work of a omniscient narrator, so it kind makes sense that we can only be told what the WK seemed to be doing or thinking etc. (rather than being told with finality what he was doing or thinking).
I guess the WK wasn't available for interview after the battle....
Writing in such doubts seems a recurrent Tolkien thing - as part of our current read-through, I've been enjoying learning about "fatastic hesitation" for example http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=833138#833138
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Mar 11 2015, 6:40pm
Post #22 of 36
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ok to have some joke suggestions?
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"What's a nazgűl like that, doing in a place like this?"
"I always said we needed morghuls in the army!"
"I was hoping to meet Earendil: all the nazgűl s like a sailor"
"Ow my leg!"
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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Brethil
Half-elven
Mar 11 2015, 7:05pm
Post #23 of 36
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"Cramp! Knew I should have waited an hour after eating to destroy Rohan!" //
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Mar 11 2015, 7:24pm
Post #24 of 36
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Lead on, Macduff.. to wrath, to ruin, and a red nightfall...
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Anyway it's the hobbit (are hobbits "men"?) behind him he needs to worry about in the first instance! I guess Hobbits are NOT men if we are to take Glorfindel’s prophesy to heart.
Another thought that has just come to me is that Gandalf says that a mortal owner of a Great Ring "merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness" (FOTR Book I CH2). And maybe that gives the WK a reason not to flee, if he thinks the end has come? I believe the “ownership” of the Nine Rings has been discussed before, but here are a couple quickies besides the invisibility problem…
”. . .-who still through their nine rings (which he held) [Sauron] had primary control of their wills.” (L. #246). (and) “… the Nine he has gathered to himself;… [Gandalf] (FOTR I, 2) So from these and other quotes it is made clear that Sauron had physical possession of the Nine during the last part of the Third Age, and the Witch King would not have a Ring on the Pelennor.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Mar 11 2015, 9:14pm
Post #25 of 36
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"I'm dying in battle, far from home. I knew I should have been a dentist like mom said, and then I'd lead a normal life."
"First this girl chops off my monster's head, now she kills me. I can't wait to see what she'll do to the Big Boss. Oh, wait, I'll be dead and won't see it!"
"When the prophecy said 'not by the hand of man' would I fall, I assumed it would be a kickboxer that killed me with his feet. Why didn't anyone mention a girl?"
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