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balbo biggins
Rohan
Mar 9 2015, 4:23am
Post #1 of 30
(3001 views)
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Fan Edits of the hobbit
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quick poll just to gage opinions, self explanatory multiple answers allowed.
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BlackFox
Half-elven
Mar 9 2015, 9:54am
Post #2 of 30
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But I have nothing against them either, as long as no laws are broken, of course. At the same time, I can see where those who dislike such projects are coming from -- it's a morally questionable practice, imo.
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Mar 12 2015, 2:28am
Post #3 of 30
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I don't get it.
OK, whatever. You're playing with something you find amusing. Kind of like, let's see if I can improve this Picasso here (I actually don't like Picasso at all).
I prefer fanfiction, which is at least, original stories based on the world we've all come to know and love.
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Elarie
Grey Havens
Mar 18 2015, 11:06pm
Post #4 of 30
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Don't see what all the fuss is about
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The only issue here is the legal one of copyrights.
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Konrad S
Lorien
Mar 20 2015, 6:02am
Post #5 of 30
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Fan edits its that like Born of hopes and The hunt for gollum then i like them.
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BlackFox
Half-elven
Mar 20 2015, 10:21am
Post #6 of 30
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Born of Hope and The Hunt for Gollum are fan films, original works of art. Fan edits are re-edits of preexisting material (say, Peter Jackson's The Hobbit films).
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Goldeneye
Lorien
Mar 20 2015, 6:50pm
Post #8 of 30
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Good poll, and a timely one considering the multitude of fanedits being worked on for the Hobbit. I wish I could have checked more than one box however, because I would have selected I SUPPORT FANEDITS along with I WOULD LIKE TO DISCUSS FANEDITS HERE.
I'm mostly fine with TORN keeping its distance from sharing links and such...I've realized after my initial posts that they don't want any legal trouble and that's understandable. However there should be a place on here where they can be discussed (minus the sharing bits), such as the Fan Art/Fan Fiction section. To me that's the most relevant category to place these discussions.
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Brethil
Half-elven
Mar 20 2015, 7:15pm
Post #9 of 30
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To be honest - and I am actually truly trying to be helpful here, not snarky
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- if the climate in this site is not what you or other Fan Editors care for, why not start your own site? TORns ideas about navigating copyright and regarding the original films are part of this site's well-established culture. If you make your own web-niche you can discuss and navigate copyright issues as you choose. And of course TORN will always be here for other discussion topics for you to join in on.
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Magpie
Immortal
Mar 20 2015, 7:27pm
Post #10 of 30
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"However there should be a place on here where they can be discussed"
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I bet if you started a discussion on the Fan Art board, you wouldn't be kicked off by an admin. But you could always check by asking on the feedback board (as lots of people have about other similar matters).
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Goldeneye
Lorien
Mar 20 2015, 7:53pm
Post #11 of 30
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Well, there are communities geared towards fanedit discussions already...Fanedit.org, Original Trilogy and so forth. I'm a member on those sites and have my own website as well (which existed long before I started working on JRR Tolkien's The Hobbit). I came to TORn with my fanedit because I thought this was where the strongest base of Tolkien fans would be. I thought it would be fun to share my ideas and get some feedback from people. The discussions on here are lively to say the least, and I like that even though many people here don't like the idea of fanedits in general.
Just because I don't agree with many people on here, does not mean I want to leave and start my own site. I'm not interested in only talking with those who think like me...I enjoy a healthy debate. This works both ways too...I feel like some TORn users would prefer to have all fanedit discussions banned with impunity, and remain in their bubble of like-mindedness. To me that is not a healthy attitude.
I would still like to share my fanedit ideas while remaining in the site's guidelines. I hope that other faneditors can share their own ideas too, and we can have discussions (and disagreements) about them!
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Mar 20 2015, 8:27pm
Post #12 of 30
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Oddly, I suggested the same thing earlier today.
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To me, hobbies based on the works, such as fan edits, seem to be at the heart of the Fan Art board.
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Brethil
Half-elven
Mar 20 2015, 8:55pm
Post #13 of 30
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Good luck with your projects, going forward. //
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(This post was edited by Brethil on Mar 20 2015, 8:56pm)
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Magpie
Immortal
Mar 20 2015, 8:56pm
Post #14 of 30
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particularly since FanArt is meant...
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to discuss the creative aspects of an individual's work.
Well, one could just display one's creative work but I think most people would like feedback and/or discussion on their approach, skill, etc.
It also seems to me that there isn't a lot of inclination to discuss the appropriateness of the creative work on Fan Art (except if it seems out of bounds for TOS or something).
So there might be less contentious discussion about whether one should attempt a fan edit and more discussion on the actual merits (or lack thereof) of a particular approach.
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Goldeneye
Lorien
Mar 20 2015, 10:29pm
Post #15 of 30
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I've noticed that most fanedit-related discussions here, regardless of how they begin, quickly devolve into arguments over the legal/moral/ethical aspects of such work. Which is fine if you start a thread intending to discuss that directly...
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Magpie
Immortal
Mar 20 2015, 10:52pm
Post #16 of 30
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I think one way to break effective communication is to ignore the intent of the discussion as its been started.
Now, I'm not talking about side conversations - even ones that stray off topic. That's people just using the initial conversation to inspire them in a new direction.
And I'm not talking about suddenly erupting in a giggle fit, otherwise known as a pun or pants subthread.
And I'm not talking about occasionally asking someone what motivates them in a particular direction.
I'm talking about being able to let a conversation get started and proceed even when someone disagrees with the premise or subject without refocusing the topic completely.
For example, some people are sticklers about attribution and demand book and page citations for every quote. I think citations are good and absolutely needed in some situations. But if the intent of the thread is somewhat lighter than an academic thesis, then lighten up with the demand for citations and just discuss the premise of the thread.
And if someone wants to celebrate a particular aspect of a book or movie, let them celebrate, even if you don't like it.
Or if someone wants to critique the stuff that was wrong, let them without having to say 'It was perfect' for the 15th time.
I'm not advocating against debate and disagreement. I'm just saying, respect the intention of the discussion and you want to discuss a different aspect, maybe start a new thread so both discussions can take place without one getting buried under another.
If the intent is to discuss how one might re-edit the film, let the thread discuss that. If you don't agree with fan edits, start a thread that talks about the merits of fan threads. But to jump in about the merits such that the initial conversation gets subverted feels wrong to me even when I think that discussing the merits of fan edits is totally appropriate and actually quite interesting.
(This post was edited by Magpie on Mar 20 2015, 10:56pm)
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Mar 31 2015, 8:33pm
Post #17 of 30
(2333 views)
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- if the climate in this site is not what you or other Fan Editors care for, why not start your own site? TORns ideas about navigating copyright and regarding the original films are part of this site's well-established culture. If you make your own web-niche you can discuss and navigate copyright issues as you choose. And of course TORN will always be here for other discussion topics for you to join in on.
that I think TORn really goes overboard with their "copyright' issues, to the point of removing links to things that are likely safe parodies. There was recently a parody of the #awkwardslide from BoFA posted on YouTube, and I saw no reason to remove the link. If YouTube isn't worried about it then why should TORn be worried, especially since TORn isn't hosting the video. Hard to discuss something in Fan Art if you won't even allow people to see it, and telling people to go somewhere else, I mean, WOW!
I promise you that fanfiction (which I have written) is every bit as much a copyright violation as any fanedited film, just FYI.
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Mar 31 2015, 8:50pm
Post #18 of 30
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Interesting that you should ask
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I guess the next question is "what is a fan-edit?" I was originally opposed/not interested in fan edits, but decided that they were no worse than fanfiction, which is palegerism and also a copyright violation, if you want to get right down to it. But now I'm attempting to make my first fan video, which is a fan edit of sorts, even if it's just a short 4-minutes set to music. Now I understand that TORn is very nervous about such things, and will probably delete the link as soon as I post it, which I think is going overboard. Why then did they post the link to a fan film about Aragorn's parents on the FRONT PAGE of this site? Sorry, I'm going off on a rant here, but I guess I just don't understand their policy. And how are people who NORMALLY meet up on TORn to discuss their shared love of all things Thorin supposed to share/discuss things like a fanvid if the link is deleted as soon as it's posted??? Is that REALLY a good service to your members? I don't even know if GIFs are allowed, JEEZ! Again, how can the members of this site discuss something if the site doesn't allow us to see it?
(This post was edited by Kilidoescartwheels on Mar 31 2015, 8:51pm)
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Brethil
Half-elven
Mar 31 2015, 11:59pm
Post #19 of 30
(2305 views)
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I don't think they are the same. And I do not personally make the rules.
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- if the climate in this site is not what you or other Fan Editors care for, why not start your own site? TORns ideas about navigating copyright and regarding the original films are part of this site's well-established culture. If you make your own web-niche you can discuss and navigate copyright issues as you choose. And of course TORN will always be here for other discussion topics for you to join in on. that I think TORn really goes overboard with their "copyright' issues, to the point of removing links to things that are likely safe parodies. There was recently a parody of the #awkwardslide from BoFA posted on YouTube, and I saw no reason to remove the link. If YouTube isn't worried about it then why should TORn be worried, especially since TORn isn't hosting the video. Hard to discuss something in Fan Art if you won't even allow people to see it, and telling people to go somewhere else, I mean, WOW! I promise you that fanfiction (which I have written) is every bit as much a copyright violation as any fanedited film, just FYI.
Well, I am not sure I agree with your last point. Fan-fiction draws on intellectual ideas with no investment or infrastructure involved. Using scenes filmed by someone else to me implies also bootlegging their resources, time and technical knowledge. Fan-fiction is not the same then to me as using an actual physical, created piece of work and re-patchworking it.
As for what the Modar decide for this site, I take no issue with their choices. As a private site, the culture here is quite entitled to its own parameters. As I stated in my post, I was not being snarky. But if a particular place is not appropriate for what one wants to discuss, I do not see that suggesting initiating or relocating that discussion to a forum appropriate and welcoming as unreasonable.
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Apr 1 2015, 12:33am
Post #20 of 30
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Okay, you don't make the rules
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*Well, I am not sure I agree with your last point. Fan-fiction draws on intellectual ideas with no investment or infrastructure involved. Using scenes filmed by someone else to me implies also bootlegging their resources, time and technical knowledge. Fan-fiction is not the same then to me as using an actual physical, created piece of work and re-patchworking it.*
But the intellectual ideas are what is copyrighted, and using those ideas without permission of the holder of the rights is still a technical violation - granted, it is highly unlikely that anyone will sue over a fanfic that isn't being used to make money; most likely the site would simply have to take it down, which is what YouTube does. And if I'm extracting clips from a DVD that I paid for, for my own use it's no different from copying a CD that I purchased so that I can have a copy in my car. That, IMO is not "bootlegging" as no profit for the time and knowledge is being lost.
But this is splitting hairs. I am working on a fanvid that I plan to upload to YouTube, using both a recording of a rock musician AND clips from the Hobbit movies - just like about 50 million other videos. And I would like to share said fanvid with some other TORners, so telling me I'm welcome to start and/or join another site and come back later is really not helpful.
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Brethil
Half-elven
Apr 1 2015, 12:36am
Post #21 of 30
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I'm sorry you take exception to my opinion. Good luck on your projects. //
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Apr 3 2015, 9:12am
Post #22 of 30
(2255 views)
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As one of the people who do make the rules...
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I think some clarification is needed here. There are several separate issues being confused in many of these discussions.
First, TORN does not allow pirated material to be posted. In recent months, many links were removed because they led to videos containing material from BOTFA before it had been released for purchase. So those videos were pirated material. We also remove similar links to scans of books, etc. prior to their release dates.
Second, copyright and fair use are hotly contested legal issues. Most people defending fan edits usually use a fair use argument. According to the US Copyright Office, there are four main factors considered in determining if a work can be covered under fair use:
- The purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes
- The nature of the copyrighted work
- The amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole
- The effect of the use upon the potential market for, or value of, the copyrighted work
With fan edits, all of these come into question, with #3 as a major sticking point, since a fan edit is all copyrighted material and, even after editing, still comprises a majority of the original work. Taking someone else's work and making it shorter or rearranging it to one's own tastes is not really the same thing as using a character name or situation and writing a new story about it. So no, as far as we can tell, fan edits are not legally the same thing as fan fiction.
Third, when you buy a DVD, there is that screen which says "this is for home use only, and not for broadcast or distribution". This is the home use license which, whether you know it or not, you agree to when you buy the DVD. Making a second copy for your own use in home or car, etc is home use, and permitted under that license. Posting that copy publicly on the web is distribution, especially since it is put there expressly for the use of others. As another example, though libraries may lend DVDs to be used in homes the same way they do books, unless they obtain a public use license they cannot show any of them at the library. The purchaser buys the physical copy and the right to use it for themselves, but not the copyright or the license to distribute to others.
So, as we understand the situation, people can legally make fan edits for their own use but when they start sharing them widely via the internet, that's when the licensing and copyright issues come into play. TORN's policy is not to facilitate unlicensed distribution of copyrighted material via our message boards.
Fanvids such as the one you're working on, which are usually short (small portion of the original work) and combined with another work (not just a scene straight from the film itself) to result in something original, usually do fall into the fair use/ artistic appropriation realm and we do not have an automatic deletion policy for those.
(This post was edited by Silverlode on Apr 3 2015, 9:14am)
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Goldeneye
Lorien
Apr 3 2015, 4:41pm
Post #23 of 30
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As a newer poster who made the mistake of sharing links originally on here, I can now say that I understand TORn's position on that side of the fanedit discussion.
What I am wondering however, and what I gather several other users here are wondering, is if discussions on fanedits are permitted. And if so, what Topic they should be organized under. There are certainly a lot of opinions on the subject especially now that The Hobbit trilogy is on video, and SO many people are working on fanedits of the films. It would be nice to discuss ideas with other uses here, along with the (hopefully healthy) debate over the merits of fanediting in itself.
That being said, I feel Fan Art would be the most relevant topic for these discussions.
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Apr 3 2015, 10:02pm
Post #24 of 30
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There is no restriction on discussing the fan edits,
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although the opinions on them are very divided, so anyone posting those discussions should be prepared for some blowback. I would say to continue to post them on the Movie:Hobbit board - we are still discussing where they will be hosted. If we decide to post them on Fan Art, we can move the discussions.
Note however, that hints of where to find fan edits, links to sites that contain links to pirated material, or other attempts to circumvent our rules will be deleted, and the poster may be subject to official warnings.
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balbo biggins
Rohan
Apr 6 2015, 2:59am
Post #25 of 30
(2147 views)
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although the opinions on them are very divided, so anyone posting those discussions should be prepared for some blowback. I would say to continue to post them on the Movie:Hobbit board - we are still discussing where they will be hosted. If we decide to post them on Fan Art, we can move the discussions.
Note however, that hints of where to find fan edits, links to sites that contain links to pirated material, or other attempts to circumvent our rules will be deleted, and the poster may be subject to official warnings.
surely a fanedit could be classed as an artwork and under the laws permitting use of material in works of art/comedy/parodies would be a legitimate and legal thing to link to. if fanedit links are banned so should parodies and all artwork that uses WB's middle earth likeness and imagery
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