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Darkstone
Immortal
Mar 5 2015, 7:48pm
Post #26 of 58
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"Noro lim, Asfaloth! Noro li...WHY ARE YOU STOPPING????"
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It’s dusk, Thursday, October 20th as our company is now half way across the flat mile before the Ford. The Five Nazgűl leapt down the slope after Frodo, while two Riders came at him from his left, and two more made for the Ford to cut him off. The Five had no chance of matching the speed of Asfaloth, but the Two bore close to Frodo. As they cast aside their black cloaks and hoods they were robed in white and grey, with swords naked in their pale hands and their cold eyes glittered.
19. Why would these two Nazgűl doff their black cloaks?
To lessen wind resistance?
Of course flapping robes aren’t too helpful either.
If they had only stripped down to their speedos they doubtless would have caught Frodo.
On such matters do the freedom of the West depend.
Does it seem strange that they would be robed in white and grey beneath?
Sounds like funereal garb, as would befit the undead.
Is there any significance to Tolkien’s use of “white” and “grey” here?
These are colors of a bloodless corpse, reminding us of Strider’s previous description of the Black Riders:
”And at all times they smell the blood of living things, desiring and hating it.”
It appears that Frodo saw “pale hands” and “cold eyes”. Does this hearken back to Frodo’s comment about a “pale king”?
Curiously, during the centuries long, often violent Christianization of Scandinavia, pagans would refer to “Hvítakristr” (“White Christ”) as the “Pale King” or the “Bloodless God”. This was considered a not-so-veiled insult in comparison to the red-bearded, red blooded, manly-man god of Thor. (I won’t mention the additionally implied homosexual aspect.) This concept of whiteness as weak or cowardly survives today in expressions such as “lily-livered”.
(Hmm.... the Witch-king appears to have gotten another black cloak as he lost his at the dell below Weathertop.)
Somewhere in the Trollshaws there’s a farmer’s wife wondering who raided her clothesline, as well as a blacksmith wondering who’s been rolling around in his coal forge.
As Frodo crossed the water all Nine Riders were at the western edge of the Ford. The foremost Rider spurred his horse forward but it reared at the water.
20. As the foremost Rider’s horse reared at the water could this mean that their steeds were afraid of water and not the Nazgűl themselves?
It kind of brings up the question of how much of this hesitation upon sight of the water is the horses and how much is the Black Riders:
“For the black horses can see, and the Riders can use men and other creatures as spies, as we found at Bree. They themselves do not see the world of light as we do…”
Is the Nazgűl’s fear of water a difficult concept to sustain?
If we’re just talking about regular water-type water, then yes. But the Loudwater seems more alive, more conscious, more fey, than any of the other water that the Black Riders surely crossed: the Anduin, the Isen, the Brandywine. Like the difference between actively malicious Caradhras and other more sedate mountain peaks.
There’s also the fact that the Loudwater is a boundary into a powerful magical being’s territory. Perhaps that more than the water is what gave the Black Riders pause, which neatly explains why they never followed the hobbits into Bombadil’s realm.
Frodo now gave us some real Tookishness as he sat tall, brandished his sword and cried out, if only weakly, ”Go back to the Land of Mordor, and follow me no more!” Then the leader, now halfway across, raised his hand and Frodo’s sword was broken and he was stricken dumb.
For me “dumb” is the operative word here: “Nyah, nyah, nyah! You can’t touch m…"*ZZAAAAPPPP!!!*
21. In his fragile state were you surprised at Frodo’s indomitable spirit at this cross-river exchange?
This is the point in any LOTR discussion where I’m always sharply brought up by the stark realization that I have an utterly alien worldview as far as Frodo in particular, LOTR in general, and the entire world as a whole compared to every other human being in the universe.
What literally everyone else I’ve ever encountered in Reading Room discussions over these many years sees as an act of indomitable spirit, inestimable courage, and supreme will seems to me an act of total and complete idiocy.
Glorfindel, Strider, and the three hobbits are ready to fight and delay the most terrifying of Sauron’s creatures by any means possible even if it means sacrificing their own lives in order for Frodo to escape to the safety of Rivendell.
And then Frodo comes to a dead stop, turns, and taunts his pursuers!!
(Frodo’s only defense is that actually it was Asfaloth who really did the stopping and tuning around, in which case, oh noble and swift Sunlit Foam, exactly which part of “noro lim” did you not understand?!?!)
Here is a singular example of the Witch-king (leader) having a physical at-a-distance affect on, not only a person, but an object. Are there any others?
Not unless you’re reading Peter Jackson’s copy.
Then came the roaring flood (with an interesting contribution from Gandalf upon its crest). The three Black Riders already in the water were quickly overcome. Aragorn and Glorfindel with some help from the Hobbits and some flaming brands drove the remaining Six horses and their Riders into the Flood. Our chapter ends as Frodo fell from Asfaloth…
Asfaloth *lets* Frodo fall off??? There’s something going on here! No wonder the Fellowship don’t use horses to travel to Mordor! The horses are all in on it with Sauron! Note that explains exactly why they deserted the Army of the West at the Morannon!
…and - He heard and saw no more.
22. Well, I can’t get into the cause of this great flood, (It was Elrond. . .shhh – next chapter), whether any Black Riders or their horses survived, nor even whether Frodo survived. Did anyone have any doubts of Frodo’s survival at a first reading?
I was still waiting for a hobbit to die to show how serious the situation was but I must admit that the thought that Frodo might actually be hobbit #4 never really crossed my mind.
Distance and timing: When this flight to the Ford began the company was halfway across the “long flat mile”. Yet it seemed that Glorfindel and Aragorn arrived at the Ford close to the time that Frodo made the crossing,….
Obviously Asfaloth was deliberately running around in circles to allow the Nazgul to catch up. Treacherous equine!!
… with the three Hobbits some distance behind. As we picture in our mind’s-eye the chase of this last half mile - the three Hobbits are quickly passed by the Five Riders, …
Like how M&P are passed by the Army of the West in Jackson’s depiction of their charge at the Morranon.
…then Aragorn and Glorfindel.
You mean there’s something Strider is equal to Glorfindel in?
All Nine Riders must have reached the Ford well before Aragorn or Glorfindel,…
Probably stopped for teatime. Remember, these are British Nazgul.
…and long before the short-legged Hobbits. How far behind were Merry, Pippin, and Sam?
Quite close after they were told of the free 24/7 Hall of Fire buffet in Rivendell.
Where, when, how did they get the firebrands?
From, er, ah, a travelling door-to-door firebrand salesman who just happened to be passing by.
How long would it take the Hobbits to run that last half mile?
If there’s the prospect of food at the end, not very long.
Glorfindel, Strider?
I’m thinking it must have been like the Tortoise and the Hare. Glorfindel thought he had plenty of time so stopped to take a nap, then when he woke up and realized slow and steady Strider had passed him up, he put on the gas and it was a photo finish between them at the ford.
Discussion is all I can ask for.
No problem, but rational discussion, at least from me, is something else entirely.
He heard and saw no more. Can you think of other instances where Tolkien uses very similar chapter-ending cliff-hangers?
The last line of The Two Towers:
Frodo was alive but taken by the Enemy.
Thanks for leading!
******************************************
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a wonderful town!!!
Mount Doom blew up,
And the Black Tower's down!!
The orcs all fell in a hole in the ground!
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a heckuva town!!!
-Lord of the Rings: The Musical, music by Leonard Bernstein, lyrics by Betty Comden and Adolph Green
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Mar 5 2015, 7:56pm)
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Mar 5 2015, 8:17pm
Post #27 of 58
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Brethil, you just contradicted yourself again.
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I thought you admitted a couple posts ago that you never read LOTR or even saw the movies, and you thought this was the Harry Potter forum? Oh, it's so hard to keep everyone straight, maybe that was me. 
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Brethil
Half-elven
Mar 5 2015, 8:39pm
Post #28 of 58
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Oh, wait ...*looks around* ... I thought this was the Lego forum. ;-o
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I thought you guys seemed awfully nerdy and serious at times.
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Mar 5 2015, 8:44pm
Post #29 of 58
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As my synapses are working to slow to keep up with who said what to whom
Yes, we all get dizzy as chapter hosts remembering who said what, and who replied to whom, and what we said and when (or if we said it at all, but thought we did). But you've been great at it, Brace, and you've made it an enjoyable discussion, and I hope it's been fun for you!
________________________________________
As for synapses, I know I've lost the plot when I start arguing with myself. Gotta mind whose avatar is whose.
Who are you – REALLY!
Did I say that? Well I thank you but “great at it”… Hmm. Perhaps a nod will do. 
Did I say that? I can only hit the “in reply to” so many times until I’m toast, totally toast!
Now Avatars, yes, a great way to find what I’ve written.
Did I say that?? 
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Brethil
Half-elven
Mar 5 2015, 8:48pm
Post #30 of 58
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Sometimes you may even hallucinate strange avatars.
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Happens to me all the time.
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Mar 5 2015, 9:17pm
Post #31 of 58
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Ya got yer water and ya got yer LOUD water...
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Is the Nazgűl’s fear of water a difficult concept to sustain?
If we’re just talking about regular water-type water, then yes. But the Loudwater seems more alive, more conscious, more fey, than any of the other water that the Black Riders surely crossed: the Anduin, the Isen, the Brandywine. Like the difference between actively malicious Caradhras and other more sedate mountain peaks.
There’s also the fact that the Loudwater is a boundary into a powerful magical being’s territory. Perhaps that more than the water is what gave the Black Riders pause, which neatly explains why they never followed the hobbits into Bombadil’s realm. Aha, this brings to mind ANOTHER (Oh, no) thought. (Oh, no – he’s trying to think again!)
I believe it is the absolute and indisputable fact that the Nine horses AND their Riders were NOT afraid of water at all. They had the sensitive ears of all wild creatures and were afraid of the rushing tumbling loud noise of the Loud water.
OMG… I feel a strong kinship with your #21 answer. Lor’ bless me!
He heard and saw no more. Can you think of other instances where Tolkien uses very similar chapter-ending cliff-hangers?
The last line of The Two Towers:
Frodo was alive but taken by the Enemy.
Thanks for leading! The last line of TT doesn’t quite meet the mark.
…was alive but taken by the Enemy. See my post #6 above.
Naw! I’ll cut & paste…
Hobbit: In the Goblin’s tunnels (end Ch. 4), “…bumped his head on hard rock, and remembered nothing more.”
At Erebor (end Ch. 17) “…and he fell with a crash and knew no more.”
LOTR: Already mentioned: "He heard and saw no more"
And as you mention Pippin before the Morannon – End of Book V - And his thought fled far away and his eyes saw no more.
Thanks for the input Darkstone. Your wit and knowledge are always most enjoyable and bound to become a thing of legend. Really!
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Mar 5 2015, 10:15pm
Post #32 of 58
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Does it seem strange that they would be robed in white and grey beneath? Is there any significance to Tolkien’s use of “white” and “grey” here? It appears that Frodo saw “pale hands” and “cold eyes”. Does this hearken back to Frodo’s comment about a “pale king”?
Ghosts!!! White spirits! Yes, it is a very ethereal and ghastly!
(Hmm.... the Witch-king appears to have gotten another black cloak as he lost his at the dell below Weathertop.)
I wonder where he got it.... I never noticed it before!!
As the foremost Rider’s horse reared at the water could this mean that their steeds were afraid of water and not the Nazgűl themselves? Is the Nazgűl’s fear of water a difficult concept to sustain?
It might be both, but as a first-time reader, I thought it was a skittish horse... or the Nazgul striking a dramatic pose.
In his fragile state were you surprised at Frodo’s indomitable spirit at this cross-river exchange?
This is a further hint at the unexpected in-born strength of Hobbits.
Here is a singular example of the Witch-king (leader) having a physical at-a-distance affect on, not only a person, but an object. Are there any others?
Well, we have the films, but I won't start that debate... Nope! Not saying a word about the breaking of Gandalf's staff... Whoops! 
What I wonder about is how he can't just use magic like his to recall the Ring of Frodo to him, He seems to underestimate people all the time, until it leads to his death.
Well, I can’t get into the cause of this great flood, (It was Elrond. . .shhh – next chapter), whether any Black Riders or their horses survived, nor even whether Frodo survived. Did anyone have any doubts of Frodo’s survival at a first reading?
Not really... I turned the page.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Mar 5 2015, 10:23pm
Post #33 of 58
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A pity I didn't stab the vile creature! --The Memoirs of an Evil Witch-King: Echoes from the Void
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Mar 5 2015, 10:26pm
Post #34 of 58
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The water-horses don't come until Frodo has shown his mettle.
Maybe we'd see this point more readily if they had been eagles in the flood?
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Mar 5 2015, 10:27pm
Post #35 of 58
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We do what we can, like Fatty Bolger, and earn the right to enjoy the appropriate accolades.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Mar 6 2015, 1:42am
Post #36 of 58
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Confuse people with avatar games?
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Oh, we in the High and Mighty Reading Room would never stoop so low!
(Don't make me dig out my cockroach avatar.)
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Pandallo
Rivendell
Mar 6 2015, 4:46am
Post #38 of 58
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"Where, when, how did they get the firebrands? How long would it take the Hobbits to run that last half mile? Glorfindel, Strider? Discussion is all I can ask for. "
I had always thought that this was being viewed from Frodo's perspective. Recall that when he is on Weathertop his Barrow Sword glows red when he is in the Ring-world. (Not sure of the proper term for that). As he fades into the Ring-world because of his wound it would stand to reason that his sight would begin to match what he saw when he put on the ring, hence his companions (I can't recall if it is just the three Hobbits) would be seen to be wielding the same red swords, the "firebrands" as the text calls them, since that is what these enchanted blades appear to those in the Ring-world.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Mar 6 2015, 11:51am
Post #39 of 58
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Somebody who truly did what they could deserves accolades [he says sternly] //
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~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Mar 6 2015, 12:21pm
Post #41 of 58
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"...we'll help you by not trying to escape?"
After all, one of the main Elvish strongholds west of the misty mountains is only just along the bank now. Nowhere to run to at all. Back against the wall, better turn and fight.
...I hadn't thought of that.
But if Frodo was taken the final distance to Rivendell at a gallop, we'd either miss the best point of view for the rout of the Riders that I can think of. Or he'd see it as he was escaping, miss being manipulated into thinking for a moment that Frodo was cornered now, and Nothing Can Save Him.
Eucatastrophe, I expect.
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Mar 6 2015, 12:46pm
Post #42 of 58
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Good point about how it would appear from Frodo's viewpoint, which was greatly altered by that point.
However, Gandalf will say specifically in the next chapter that they kindled a fire and charged the Nazgul with flaming brands, and that caught between "fire and water," the Nazgul were dismayed. So they were literal firebrands.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Mar 6 2015, 4:45pm
Post #44 of 58
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At the top of the bank the horse halted and turned about neighing fiercely...
...[Frodo] felt that it was useless to try to escape over the long uncertain path from the Ford to the edge of Rivendell
...In any case he felt that he was commanded urgently to halt.
So what comes first - does the horse stop by itself for some reason and the other event happen literally in the order in which they are presented? Or does Frodo, increasingly under the command of the Nazgul, halt the horse at their command, unaware that he has done so? In that case , we then see him rationalize his way past [the suggestion that?] escape is useless and into finally realising in his concious mind that he has been commanded to halt. The next step - but one that he doesn't take for us - might be to realise that he has already obeyed the command he's only just noticed.
That seems to go with Frodo's reluctance to flee on the horse when the riders are first sighted - he reins in and draws his sword instead of fleeing, and Glorfindel has to command the horse directly.
That woudl accord with what I've read of people under hypnotism, for example; they are trying to decide whether it is really sensible to jump around the stage like a frog (or whatever the stage hypnotist has commanded) and then discover they are already doing it.
If Frodo has commanded the horse to stop, there would not, this time, be anybody to shout "noro lim" and override the foolish instructions from the bridle. Perhaps Asfaloth doesn't like it (hence the neighing), but what else is a well-trained horse to do (don't ask me BTW, I know very little about horses...)
That's working for me...
Fun thing to think about: thanks Darkstone.
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Mar 6 2015, 4:52pm)
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Mar 6 2015, 5:29pm
Post #46 of 58
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A horse is a horse, of course, of course..
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So what comes first - does the horse stop by itself for some reason and the other event happen literally in the order in which they are presented? Or does Frodo, increasingly under the command of the Nazgul, halt the horse at their command, unaware that he has done so?
Frodo has no control over Asfaloth who had definite instructions from his owner/master Glorfindel.
These instructions, noro lim Asfaloth vaguely translate into Middle-earth Horse-speech as -- “Run fast Asfaloth! Cross the Ford quickly, do not drop your passenger, and keep moving at the swiftest quarter-horse gallop that you can achieve towards the safety of Rivendell.”
(This is but a rough echo of the true translation.)
Herein is the singular instance of the stallion Asfaloth disregarding the explicate orders of his master, as he was “neighed & whinnied” by some beautiful black mares on the west side of the Ford. The two most powerful instincts in animal (and man) are survival and sexual. 
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Darkstone
Immortal
Mar 6 2015, 5:44pm
Post #47 of 58
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“Gondor mares are hip
I really dig those styles they wear.
And the Southron mares with the way they talk
They knock me out when I’m down there.
“Those cute Eastlerling fillies
Really make you feel alright.
And the Mirkwood mares with the way they kiss
They keep their stallions warm at night.
“But I wish they all could be Calenardhon...
I wish they all could be Calenardhon...
I wish they all could be Calenardhon mares.”
******************************************
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a wonderful town!!!
Mount Doom blew up,
And the Black Tower's down!!
The orcs all fell in a hole in the ground!
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a heckuva town!!!
-Lord of the Rings: The Musical, music by Leonard Bernstein, lyrics by Betty Comden and Adolph Green
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Mar 6 2015, 10:00pm
Post #49 of 58
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What Curious said...LOL... Lovin' Or Leavin' ...
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er.....
Plus some Shadow-facts...
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Brethil
Half-elven
Mar 6 2015, 10:01pm
Post #50 of 58
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