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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Mar 5 2015, 3:25am
Post #1 of 58
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**‘The Fellowship of the Ring’ Discussion, Ch. 12: Flight to the Ford; Pt. 4, CHASE to THE FORD & A PERSONAL COMMENT
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It’s dusk, Thursday, October 20th as our company is now half way across the flat mile before the Ford. The Five Nazgûl leapt down the slope after Frodo, while two Riders came at him from his left, and two more made for the Ford to cut him off. The Five had no chance of matching the speed of Asfaloth, but the Two bore close to Frodo. As they cast aside their black cloaks and hoods they were robed in white and grey, with swords naked in their pale hands and their cold eyes glittered.
19. Why would these two Nazgûl doff their black cloaks? Does it seem strange that they would be robed in white and grey beneath? Is there any significance to Tolkien’s use of “white” and “grey” here? It appears that Frodo saw “pale hands” and “cold eyes”. Does this hearken back to Frodo’s comment about a “pale king”?
(Hmm.... the Witch-king appears to have gotten another black cloak as he lost his at the dell below Weathertop.)
As Frodo crossed the water all Nine Riders were at the western edge of the Ford. The foremost Rider spurred his horse forward but it reared at the water.
20. As the foremost Rider’s horse reared at the water could this mean that their steeds were afraid of water and not the Nazgûl themselves? Is the Nazgûl’s fear of water a difficult concept to sustain?
Frodo now gave us some real Tookishness as he sat tall, brandished his sword and cried out, if only weakly, ”Go back to the Land of Mordor, and follow me no more!” Then the leader, now halfway across, raised his hand and Frodo’s sword was broken and he was stricken dumb.
21. In his fragile state were you surprised at Frodo’s indomitable spirit at this cross-river exchange?
Here is a singular example of the Witch-king (leader) having a physical at-a-distance affect on, not only a person, but an object. Are there any others?
Then came the roaring flood (with an interesting contribution from Gandalf upon its crest). The three Black Riders already in the water were quickly overcome. Aragorn and Glorfindel with some help from the Hobbits and some flaming brands drove the remaining Six horses and their Riders into the Flood. Our chapter ends as Frodo fell from Asfaloth and - He heard and saw no more.
22. Well, I can’t get into the cause of this great flood, (It was Elrond. . .shhh – next chapter), whether any Black Riders or their horses survived, nor even whether Frodo survived. Did anyone have any doubts of Frodo’s survival at a first reading?
Distance and timing: When this flight to the Ford began the company was halfway across the “long flat mile”. Yet it seemed that Glorfindel and Aragorn arrived at the Ford close to the time that Frodo made the crossing, with the three Hobbits some distance behind. As we picture in our mind’s-eye the chase of this last half mile - the three Hobbits are quickly passed by the Five Riders, then Aragorn and Glorfindel. All Nine Riders must have reached the Ford well before Aragorn or Glorfindel, and long before the short-legged Hobbits. How far behind were Merry, Pippin, and Sam? Where, when, how did they get the firebrands? How long would it take the Hobbits to run that last half mile? Glorfindel, Strider? Discussion is all I can ask for.
He heard and saw no more. Can you think of other instances where Tolkien uses very similar chapter-ending cliff-hangers?
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It’s now dusk, Thursday, October 20, 3018. Frodo lies dead or alive(?) on the east bank of the Bruinen. The Nine Riders are washed away, and we’re not certain of the condition of Aragorn, Glorfindel or the three Hobbits. But we must wait, we must wait, we must wait – No! I can’t, I’m turning the page to Book II!
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As this is the final chapter of Book I, and I still have the soapbox and the cheek to stand upon it, I would like to end with a personal comment:
As it is seemly to scrutinize each book, chapter and verse; each page, each paragraph, each sentence, and quite often many solitary words, and as we delve into the esoteric origins of words, of persons, places, or things; as we dissect first, second, and third drafts; as we endeavor to comprehend the thoughts and reasonings of our Middle-earth characters; as we calculate distances, timelines and family trees; as we as we attempt to analyze difficult to decipher marginalia scrawls; and as we rip into the many post-JRR Tolkien publications, should we on occasion cease our intellectual excursions and suppositions and simply recall the joy, the fear, and the tears of our first readings of The Lord of the Rings lest we forget our beginnings into this wondrous epical creation? Should we on occasion sit back in a quiet corner of our study in our Bag End, with an apple-tart and coffee, and recall the following well known wishes of this extraordinary and inspired man?
”The prime motive was the desire of a tale-teller to try his hand at a really long story that would hold the attention of readers, amuse them, delight them, and at times maybe excite them or deeply move them.” (FOTR, Prologue)
Has he succeded?
”Brother, you better believe it!”
I recall some while back someone (I don’t recall whom, sorry) posed the query: If you could ask a single question of JRR Tolkien what would it be. I would (as would most all of us) have dozens of questions, but after some thought I would ask none.
I believe I would simply give the single greatest compliment one man can give to another:”Well done!”
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arithmancer
Grey Havens
Mar 5 2015, 12:00pm
Post #2 of 58
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As they cast aside their black cloaks and hoods they were robed in white and grey, with swords naked in their pale hands and their cold eyes glittered.
19. Why would these two Nazgûl doff their black cloaks? Does it seem strange that they would be robed in white and grey beneath? Is there any significance to Tolkien’s use of “white” and “grey” here? It appears that Frodo saw “pale hands” and “cold eyes”. Does this hearken back to Frodo’s comment about a “pale king”?
(Hmm.... the Witch-king appears to have gotten another black cloak as he lost his at the dell below Weathertop.)
The ones casting aside their cloaks were the ones closest to Frodo. I think perhaps they thought their cloaks would impede them it they had to draw their weapons and fnish Frodo off.
I suppose I would probably have guessed the Riders prefer a goth, all-black scheme in their costuming but white and grey work for me too. There is no color here - very suggestive of lifelessness. I think this is also why we are reminded they are "pale" both here and at Weathertop - corpses are pale also.
As for the King's cloak, I am sure he carried changes of clothing in his saddlebags as any well-prepared traveller in the Wild might.
20. As the foremost Rider’s horse reared at the water could this mean that their steeds were afraid of water and not the Nazgûl themselves? Is the Nazgûl’s fear of water a difficult concept to sustain?
I think this comes from European mythology about other evil beings. I seem to recall (would need to Google) that witches, and perhaps vampires, are believed not to be able to cross running water. Given that the running water in question winds up swamping them all shortly after this scene, it was not something I as a reader questioned. Perhaps they could sense there was danger.
21. In his fragile state were you surprised at Frodo’s indomitable spirit at this cross-river exchange?
Here is a singular example of the Witch-king (leader) having a physical at-a-distance affect on, not only a person, but an object. Are there any others?
It impressed me, anyway. And the WK broke Gandalf's staff, in another instance. Oh, wait... I can't recall another book example.
22. Well, I can’t get into the cause of this great flood, (It was Elrond. . .shhh – next chapter), whether any Black Riders or their horses survived, nor even whether Frodo survived. Did anyone have any doubts of Frodo’s survival at a first reading?
Nope. none. I was also only 7 though, so my understanding of the possibilities in literature was rather circumscribed. Though, I suppose having already read "The Hobbit" I should have been open to the possibility of at least non-Hobbit major characters dying - but surely not this early, anyway?
Distance and timing: When this flight to the Ford began the company was halfway across the “long flat mile”. Yet it seemed that Glorfindel and Aragorn arrived at the Ford close to the time that Frodo made the crossing, with the three Hobbits some distance behind. As we picture in our mind’s-eye the chase of this last half mile - the three Hobbits are quickly passed by the Five Riders, then Aragorn and Glorfindel. All Nine Riders must have reached the Ford well before Aragorn or Glorfindel, and long before the short-legged Hobbits. How far behind were Merry, Pippin, and Sam? Where, when, how did they get the firebrands? How long would it take the Hobbits to run that last half mile? Glorfindel, Strider? Discussion is all I can ask for.
Glorfindel could cover that ground in under two minutes. As an athletic Elf I think he can match or beat a strong university level track runner in this area. Hobbits, on the other hand, would presumably take considerably longer. I am less sure how fast a horse with a rider can cover a half-mile. The reluctance of ether the horses or the Riders to enter the water must have caused a ling-ish delay...
He heard and saw no more. Can you think of other instances where Tolkien uses very similar chapter-ending cliff-hangers?
Lessee, end of The Two Towers?
Re: personal comments - yes. From the time I finished it at age 8, reading this book 2-3 times a year was part of growing up, college, and grad school for me, a familiar and always enjoyable ritual. A non-Tolkien life partner, career, and kids all took away from the free time I once spent this way, but I still love them, and still try to make time for them at least occasionally, and they still never disappoint. 
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Mar 5 2015, 1:53pm
Post #3 of 58
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I'm with Arith; I would expect the Nazgul to wear black on back and even have black underwear and socks. Black tongues and black teeth! But I think Tolkien was going for a ghostly or ghoulish appearance for them beneath their outer trappings.
Frodo dead? Naw. On first read, I thought he died at Cirith Ungol, but I was sure he'd survive this. "He heard and saw no more": isn't that the line used for Bilbo at Battle of Five Armies and Pippin at the Morannon?
Who's actually afraid of the water: the Nazgul, or did the horse rear up on its own? Or did the horse sense the fear in its rider and reflect that? At any rate, horses can sense danger, but I more strongly suspect that the Nazgul knew that Elrond's power ran in that river--they knew where they were and saw Glorfindel, so Elrond could have been there in person behind a tree--so I imagine they were scared for that reason. But at least now for us logical readers they're behaving logically and pursuing the Ring instead of running the other way.
How did the other hobbits get to the Ford on foot so fast? You raise a great point, or expose a glaring plot error. I'd never thought about it before, because this is such an exciting part of the book, but the horses ran quickly to the Ford, and it wasn't like Frodo stalled the Nazgul with a 15-minute speech so his friends could catch up, light a fire, and attack.
I do love Frodo's indomitable spirit! I actually thought it might work on first read, similar to the way he rallied in the Barrow and cut off that vile, crawling hand, so I was crushed that he was no Bombadil and had zero effect on the schoolyard bullies.
The Chief Nazgul should have broken Eowyn's sword with a magic trick, and then he'd be around to tell the story. But he used magic to help Grond break the Gate of Minas Tirith when it wouldn't yield otherwise.
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Mar 5 2015, 2:59pm
Post #4 of 58
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White, Grey, and the 880 yard dash...
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19. I like your idea that “white” and “grey” is suggestive of lifelessness and even corpses. But the Witch King lugging around an extra black cloak… Hmm…possible.
22. Yes, agreed, I think even upon a first reading no one would think that Frodo was dead. Just one of my many elementary questions.
I too figured that Glorfindel (and Aragorn) could cover that last half-mile in less than two minutes, but the Hobbits much longer.
Maybe someone with horse-racing knowledge could tell us how quickly a horse and rider could cover one mile….. (that would be the Five on the ridge); or a half-mile (that would be the Two ambushers).
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Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
Mar 5 2015, 3:43pm
Post #5 of 58
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19. Why would these two Nazgûl doff their black cloaks? Does it seem strange that they would be robed in white and grey beneath? Is there any significance to Tolkien’s use of “white” and “grey” here? It appears that Frodo saw “pale hands” and “cold eyes”. Does this hearken back to Frodo’s comment about a “pale king”?
(Hmm.... the Witch-king appears to have gotten another black cloak as he lost his at the dell below Weathertop.)
Well, here's my thinking: One of the perks of being king is you can order your subjects to do whatever you want. Lose your cloak? Order your minions to give you theirs. Presto--new black cloak or two. Unfortunately the other two are left in their white-and-grey skivvies. How embarrassing for them! (What's black and white and red all over? Black Riders in their undies!)
(Yes, yes I do have a serious case of cabin fever.  )
20. As the foremost Rider’s horse reared at the water could this mean that their steeds were afraid of water and not the Nazgûl themselves? Is the Nazgûl’s fear of water a difficult concept to sustain?
I wouldn't think a fear of water would be more difficult to sustain than a fear of fire. However, I always thought that once they crossed the river they were in Elrond's domain, which is somehow held with his Elven power (and his ring). So naturally they would be reluctant to cross the boundary. How much the fell horses understand/sense this boundary vs. their Riders I can't say.
21. In his fragile state were you surprised at Frodo’s indomitable spirit at this cross-river exchange?
Here is a singular example of the Witch-king (leader) having a physical at-a-distance affect on, not only a person, but an object. Are there any others?
Yes, I was surprised, because of Frodo's initial reluctance/obedience to the Black Riders' order not to resist. Good on you, Frodo! Of course, maybe the strength needed for that resistance is what caused his collapse later too.
I can't think of another physical-at-a-distance affect in the books, other than the terrible calls that cause hearts to quail in the later books.
22. Well, I can’t get into the cause of this great flood, (It was Elrond. . .shhh – next chapter), whether any Black Riders or their horses survived, nor even whether Frodo survived. Did anyone have any doubts of Frodo’s survival at a first reading?
Distance and timing: When this flight to the Ford began the company was halfway across the “long flat mile”. Yet it seemed that Glorfindel and Aragorn arrived at the Ford close to the time that Frodo made the crossing, with the three Hobbits some distance behind. As we picture in our mind’s-eye the chase of this last half mile - the three Hobbits are quickly passed by the Five Riders, then Aragorn and Glorfindel. All Nine Riders must have reached the Ford well before Aragorn or Glorfindel, and long before the short-legged Hobbits. How far behind were Merry, Pippin, and Sam? Where, when, how did they get the firebrands? How long would it take the Hobbits to run that last half mile? Glorfindel, Strider? Discussion is all I can ask for.
No, I don't think I thought he was dead--there were two more books to go!
Good thinking, Bracegirdle, on the time-space continuum. This problem never crossed my mind because my heart was always with Frodo! Maybe Glorfindel hastily started a fire, everyone grabbed a flaming brand and then started running. Perhaps the Hobbits spread out behind the quicker Elf and Man to create a couple of sort of flaming flanks to deter any Riders from escaping? Yeah, OK, that's pushing it.
He heard and saw no more. Can you think of other instances where Tolkien uses very similar chapter-ending cliff-hangers?
The end of The Desolation of Smaug? 
Thanks for your thoughts on this chapter, Bracegirdle, and on LOTR as a whole. I'm not necessarily one to go in for the supplementary sources, because I am of the Text Alone literary school, but I do find them helpful, insightful, and often fascinating. But I've been a once-a-year-at-least LOTR reader for over thirty years (except when my kids were little), and that's what I really love. It has never failed to delight me, and even after all these years I can still be moved by it.
“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Mar 5 2015, 3:47pm
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Water, water, and the Magic Yell..
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"He heard and saw no more": isn't that the line used for Bilbo at Battle of Five Armies and Pippin at the Morannon?
Yes, (similar wording). I found two instances in The Hobbit, and two in LOTR.
Hobbit: In the Goblin’s tunnels (end Ch. 4), “…bumped his head on hard rock, and remembered nothing more.”
At Erebor (end Ch. 17) “…and he fell with a crash and knew no more.”
LOTR: Already mentioned: "He heard and saw no more"
And as you mention Pippin before the Morannon – End of Book V - And his thought fled far away and his eyes saw no more.
Who's actually afraid of the water: the Nazgul, or did the horse rear up on its own? Or did the horse sense the fear in its rider and reflect that? At any rate, horses can sense danger, Don’t most horses have a natural fear of crossing wide rivers (even fairly calm ones)? I think Tolkien mentions this (Nazgul) fear of water somewhere in U.T. as being a rather tough idea to support.(?) Quote anyone…
But he used magic to help Grond break the Gate of Minas Tirith when it wouldn't yield otherwise. Good catch. I guess we could call this action-at-a-distance, even though it took him three tries. A-one and a-two and a BOOM! 
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Mar 5 2015, 4:24pm
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When did the hobbits get so brave?
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Perhaps the Hobbits spread out behind the quicker Elf and Man to create a couple of sort of flaming flanks to deter any Riders from escaping? When we consider how the hobbits have been routinely scared of the Black Riders (though Farmer Maggot was plucky enough to set his dogs on them), doesn't it strain credibility a bit that they actually went on the attack here and went after not just one but all nine of the Nine? I can understand Glorfindel and Strider attacking, but where did the other three find the courage? Or was this their Barrow moment when their bravery finally kindled? Still, why was Merry, hardened by many adventures, still so afraid of the Chief Nazgul on the Pelennor Fields much later on, even afraid of being looked at, if he'd attacked him here? It seems to strain credibility a bit for me, though of course, I cheer them on as they go.
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Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
Mar 5 2015, 4:29pm
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if the Riders turned on them, they'd have to go through Strider and Glorfindel first.
Yes, seriously though, their bravery as well as their speed do strain credulity a bit.
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Perhaps the Hobbits spread out behind the quicker Elf and Man to create a couple of sort of flaming flanks to deter any Riders from escaping?
When we consider how the hobbits have been routinely scared of the Black Riders (though Farmer Maggot was plucky enough to set his dogs on them), doesn't it strain credibility a bit that they actually went on the attack here and went after not just one but all nine of the Nine? I can understand Glorfindel and Strider attacking, but where did the other three find the courage? Or was this their Barrow moment when their bravery finally kindled? Still, why was Merry, hardened by many adventures, still so afraid of the Chief Nazgul on the Pelennor Fields much later on, even afraid of being looked at, if he'd attacked him here? It seems to strain credibility a bit for me, though of course, I cheer them on as they go.
“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”
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Brethil
Half-elven
Mar 5 2015, 4:53pm
Post #9 of 58
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Fade to ... gray? (I refuse to make a Shades joke. Refuse.)
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I'm with Arith; I would expect the Nazgul to wear black on back and even have black underwear and socks. Black tongues and black teeth! But I think Tolkien was going for a ghostly or ghoulish appearance for them beneath their outer trappings. That or the idea of 'fading' from black to grey is an extension of the metaphor. (?) How did the other hobbits get to the Ford on foot so fast? You raise a great point, or expose a glaring plot error. I'd never thought about it before, because this is such an exciting part of the book, but the horses ran quickly to the Ford, and it wasn't like Frodo stalled the Nazgul with a 15-minute speech so his friends could catch up, light a fire, and attack. I never did either. The focus is so much on Frodo, and the tension if the mad dash to the ford, that the rest gets lost (in a number of ways). I do love Frodo's indomitable spirit! I actually thought it might work on first read, similar to the way he rallied in the Barrow and cut off that vile, crawling hand, so I was crushed that he was no Bombadil and had zero effect on the schoolyard bullies.
The Chief Nazgul should have broken Eowyn's sword with a magic trick, and then he'd be around to tell the story. But he used magic to help Grond break the Gate of Minas Tirith when it wouldn't yield otherwise.
Yes, it seems we had logically and emotionally reached a plot point of the small hero claiming some of the power: in what I consider a lesser writer, that might have happened. But the idea of the smallest men still being heroic, even if they fail at it, and the utterly needed aid of the Firstborn carries through thus not relying on a more predictable or linear course. It feels a bit of a letdown doesn't it? Good point about the idea of breaking Eowyn's sword! But in his arrogance he underestimated (him) her. I see Glorfindel helping there...that bit of prophesy of his, (" Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man shall he fall.") in the mind of one who is arrogant with power would be misinterpreted - in this case, to his doom. Nice.
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Brethil
Half-elven
Mar 5 2015, 5:04pm
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20. As the foremost Rider’s horse reared at the water could this mean that their steeds were afraid of water and not the Nazgûl themselves? Is the Nazgûl’s fear of water a difficult concept to sustain? Great question. It works nicely as a philosophical point - especially once Ulmo is understood - but from a practical point it makes traveling around a royal PIA. And I don't think JRTT wanted it enough to re-work the map and clear river-less patches for the Nine to cross to the Shire. It would make a great underlying defense for Rivendell - so part of me likes to let it sort of sit there...but not be too literal. I could definitely extend it to the point that waters touched by the Elves could be a repellent for them. In general though, I think it may be a point to involved to carry to the whole of the map. As far as the Ford: I get the feeling that these horses who accept the Nine because they are born and bred to the Dark Lord's service (as Gandalf later says) are thus a bit compromised themselves, in what I think JRRT implies is a moral sense: the natural will subverted by Sauron. So I think the Elven-imbued waters of the Ford would indeed alarm them, like waving a bright strobe flashlight in front of their eyes (maybe used to a sort of perceiving darkness - in a spiritual sense) and thus causing the natural equine startle reaction.
(This post was edited by Brethil on Mar 5 2015, 5:04pm)
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Brethil
Half-elven
Mar 5 2015, 5:12pm
Post #11 of 58
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Goodness, aren't you sassy today!!!!! //
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He heard and saw no more. Can you think of other instances where Tolkien uses very similar chapter-ending cliff-hangers?
The end of The Desolation of Smaug?
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Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
Mar 5 2015, 5:19pm
Post #12 of 58
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Ha! Just sick of being stuck at home because of snow snow snow. :P //
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“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”
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Brethil
Half-elven
Mar 5 2015, 5:25pm
Post #13 of 58
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Ditto. Me too. We have six inches so far. ;-(
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But since we mentioned the Forbidden Film, I must say there is a moment I just LOVE so much that I yell at the screen: when the Nine sort of push Merry (and Pippin) aside on Weathertop, not even bothering to kill him. I always yell like a fool at the W-K, "You'll be seeing THAT Hobbit again!!! Ha!!!! Hahhahaaaa!!!!!"
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Mar 5 2015, 5:28pm
Post #14 of 58
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Brave little hobbitses (Merry now, Merry then)
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I expect it was easy for Frodo's friends to kindle fire - probably the hairs on the hobbits' feet were smouldering after that quick dash.
(I too had never noticed that the rest of the company comes up so fast - the narrative is exciting enough to distort time here: it doesn't seem at all unreasonable until Fridge Logic comes in!)
As regards bravery, it might be significant that the hobbits are in a charging group here, whereas at Pellenor Merry is on his own. Easier to be brave (or even rash) if everyone else is doing it too, perhaps.
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Mar 5 2015, 5:37pm
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Yep - Well Done Tolkien (and well done Bracegirdle, leading this chapter!) //
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~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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arithmancer
Grey Havens
Mar 5 2015, 5:48pm
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...this makes perfect sense. It is daylight, they have the support of both Strider and Glorfindel, they have no real hope of escape and (I think this is the most important difference) the Riders are menacing Frodo.
Merry stabbed the Witch-King, in the end, when he threatened Eowyn.
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Mar 5 2015, 6:19pm
Post #19 of 58
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the three Hobbits in a kind of hang-back mode of necessity (those short-legs). Each obtaining from “wherever” a fire-brand and then watching the skirmish between the Man and the Elf, and the Nine. Kind of a back-up reserve force.
”If any head back this way we’ll set their horses on fire!” The Nine may have been washed to perdition before Merry, Sam, and Pippin ever reached the Ford?
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Mar 5 2015, 6:44pm
Post #20 of 58
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Yes, it seems we had logically and emotionally reached a plot point of the small hero claiming some of the power: in what I consider a lesser writer, that might have happened. But the idea of the smallest men still being heroic, even if they fail at it, and the utterly needed aid of the Firstborn carries through thus not relying on a more predictable or linear course. It feels a bit of a letdown doesn't it?
Yeah, it's a letdown, but an appropriate one, or even a skillful one, as you say. We may cheer for Frodo as the hero, but the author reserves the right to give us a reality check and show that Frodo's bravado was insignificant. It contributes to the larger sense in the book that Evil is big and dangerous and not something you defeat when you feel like it. If this were a Hollywood or Disney typical tale, the hero would discover that hidden inner strength and summon unknown powers that would drive off the Nazgul, thus marking him a Hero and making the audience applaud at the great turn of events. We're conditioned to expect that, to some degree, hence the letdown. But we still get Frodo's cheekiness, which is a tribute to his character, even if it fails. Really, that's Frodo in a microcosm, isn't it? Defiant and bold to the end, but ultimately failing at his quest, and not because he's a failure, but because he's up against supernatural powers too great for a mortal to defeat. I believe Tolkien acknowledged as much in one of his Letters, that Frodo only "failed" in a superficial assessment of failure, and his real success was in getting as far as he did.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Mar 5 2015, 6:45pm
Post #21 of 58
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That makes sense to me and accounts reasonably for their courage: not enough to lead the charge, but enough to provide the second wave behind the two Heroes. And you're right, maybe by the time they reached the Ford, the Nine were already washed away.
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Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
Mar 5 2015, 6:55pm
Post #22 of 58
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I like this parallel, CuriousG
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Really, that's Frodo in a microcosm, isn't it? Defiant and bold to the end, but ultimately failing at his quest, and not because he's a failure, but because he's up against supernatural powers too great for a mortal to defeat. I believe Tolkien acknowledged as much in one of his Letters, that Frodo only "failed" in a superficial assessment of failure, and his real success was in getting as far as he did.
Well observed. 
“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Mar 5 2015, 6:58pm
Post #23 of 58
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As my synapses are working to slow to keep up with who said what to whom I’ll use your response to wonder why no one called me on my many uses of the day of the week.
It’s still the night of Thursday, October the 6th, 3018
And on Thursday morning, Oct. 13th
It’s now dusk, Thursday, October 20, 3018 etc. etc.
Of course these are all Thursdays, but that’s just coincidence that I picked those particular days as there are also Mondays and Tuesdays mentioned in my comments; and of course if we follow each day in Book I, day-by-day, we have each of the days of the week.
*Spoiler* Frodo awakens at Rivendell on a Monday at ten a.m., Oct. 24th.
Yes, it IS possible to follow day-by-day, and name every day of the week, from Frodo’s leaving Bag End to and including (and beyond? I haven’t attempted to go farther) his arrival at Rivendell.
(This post was edited by Bracegirdle on Mar 5 2015, 7:04pm)
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Mar 5 2015, 7:14pm
Post #24 of 58
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As my synapses are working to slow to keep up with who said what to whom Yes, we all get dizzy as chapter hosts remembering who said what, and who replied to whom, and what we said and when (or if we said it at all, but thought we did). But you've been great at it, Brace, and you've made it an enjoyable discussion, and I hope it's been fun for you!
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Brethil
Half-elven
Mar 5 2015, 7:36pm
Post #25 of 58
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Seconding these thoughts, Brace! Lovely presentation! //
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As my synapses are working to slow to keep up with who said what to whom Yes, we all get dizzy as chapter hosts remembering who said what, and who replied to whom, and what we said and when (or if we said it at all, but thought we did). But you've been great at it, Brace, and you've made it an enjoyable discussion, and I hope it's been fun for you!
As for synapses, I know I've lost the plot when I start arguing with myself. Gotta mind whose avatar is whose.  
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