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flyingfish98
The Shire
Mar 7 2015, 8:47am
Post #51 of 58
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Clearly, like all riders, Glorfindel knows it's a Very Bad Thing to allow your horse to gallop home; you teach them that the last part of the journey home is made at a sedate pace.
The other thing that springs to mind (and correct me if I'm wrong, I'm going on my memory of the Hobbit) is that the descent to Rivendell is fairly rocky terrain, with a difficult to find path. Even a horse that knew the way well would possibly have to walk, may be even be led, into the valley. Note Gandalf refers to the group 'carrying' Frodo and being met by Elrond's folk. Maybe they couldn't put him on the horse as the terrain was too difficult for a large horse - or maybe they just didn't trust Asfaloth after the stunt he pulled at the ford: no carrots for him tonight.
If he were a spectacularly intelligent equine, he might have been reluctant to lead enemies via the subtly marked track into the hidden valley of Rivendell (and slowly enough for them to have learnt the way). Rivendell was meant to be hard to find, for all it was homely. Stallions do have a territorial instinct and will protect their patch. And every horse (and pony) I've ever worked with will fight for their feed bin....... Maybe he didn't want nine large horse anywhere near his food + mares
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flyingfish98
The Shire
Mar 7 2015, 9:22am
Post #52 of 58
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Thank you to all for their welcoming words! More random thoughts...
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19. Why would these two Nazgűl doff their black cloaks? Does it seem strange that they would be robed in white and grey beneath? Is there any significance to Tolkien’s use of “white” and “grey” here? It appears that Frodo saw “pale hands” and “cold eyes”. Does this hearken back to Frodo’s comment about a “pale king”?
(Hmm.... the Witch-king appears to have gotten another black cloak as he lost his at the dell below Weathertop.)
As others have said, cloaks look great, but they get in the way when you're actually trying to do stuff (kind of like long, loose locks). I always liked the grey and white robes - it fitted with them being wraiths, not just generic black-clad bad guys. No idea on where they kept their cache of spare black cloaks: maybe four of them took a metre or so off each of theirs and they had a sewing bee.
As Frodo crossed the water all Nine Riders were at the western edge of the Ford. The foremost Rider spurred his horse forward but it reared at the water.
20. As the foremost Rider’s horse reared at the water could this mean that their steeds were afraid of water and not the Nazgűl themselves? Is the Nazgűl’s fear of water a difficult concept to sustain?
Any horse not used to water crossing (or encountering a new water crossing) might balk at the idea and be a bit reluctant.
21. In his fragile state were you surprised at Frodo’s indomitable spirit at this cross-river exchange?
Here is a singular example of the Witch-king (leader) having a physical at-a-distance affect on, not only a person, but an object. Are there any others?
I always viewed Frodo's action as the natural extension of the fear and hatred that had gripped him earlier, when he slowed Asfaloth to a walk and felt the command of the Riders. Less indomitable defiance and more slightly irrational - an indomitable will should have come up with a slightly more useful action, like say, getting Asfaloth moving away from the edge of the river.
22. Well, I can’t get into the cause of this great flood, (It was Elrond. . .shhh – next chapter), whether any Black Riders or their horses survived, nor even whether Frodo survived. Did anyone have any doubts of Frodo’s survival at a first reading?
Distance and timing: When this flight to the Ford began the company was halfway across the “long flat mile”. Yet it seemed that Glorfindel and Aragorn arrived at the Ford close to the time that Frodo made the crossing, with the three Hobbits some distance behind. As we picture in our mind’s-eye the chase of this last half mile - the three Hobbits are quickly passed by the Five Riders, then Aragorn and Glorfindel. All Nine Riders must have reached the Ford well before Aragorn or Glorfindel, and long before the short-legged Hobbits. How far behind were Merry, Pippin, and Sam? Where, when, how did they get the firebrands? How long would it take the Hobbits to run that last half mile? Glorfindel, Strider? Discussion is all I can ask for.
He heard and saw no more. Can you think of other instances where Tolkien uses very similar chapter-ending cliff-hangers?
I keep thinking of the joke about finding yourself in the company of a dragon and a halfling - you only have to run faster than the halfling. In this case, running towards nine Ringwraiths, the hobbits only had to run slower than a Man and an Elf...... They probably did it in around 5-10 minutes. whereas Aragorn and Glorfindel would have taken 2-3 minutes, and had time to make a fire before they showed up. Maybe whatever liquor Glorfindel carried in his silver-studded leather flask was flammable...... wind a few strips of cloth around branches, douse in liquor and whoosh!
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It’s now dusk, Thursday, October 20, 3018. Frodo lies dead or alive(?) on the east bank of the Bruinen. The Nine Riders are washed away, and we’re not certain of the condition of Aragorn, Glorfindel or the three Hobbits. But we must wait, we must wait, we must wait – No! I can’t, I’m turning the page to Book II!
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As this is the final chapter of Book I, and I still have the soapbox and the cheek to stand upon it, I would like to end with a personal comment:
As it is seemly to scrutinize each book, chapter and verse; each page, each paragraph, each sentence, and quite often many solitary words, and as we delve into the esoteric origins of words, of persons, places, or things; as we dissect first, second, and third drafts; as we endeavor to comprehend the thoughts and reasonings of our Middle-earth characters; as we calculate distances, timelines and family trees; as we as we attempt to analyze difficult to decipher marginalia scrawls; and as we rip into the many post-JRR Tolkien publications, should we on occasion cease our intellectual excursions and suppositions and simply recall the joy, the fear, and the tears of our first readings of The Lord of the Rings lest we forget our beginnings into this wondrous epical creation? Should we on occasion sit back in a quiet corner of our study in our Bag End, with an apple-tart and coffee, and recall the following well known wishes of this extraordinary and inspired man?
”The prime motive was the desire of a tale-teller to try his hand at a really long story that would hold the attention of readers, amuse them, delight them, and at times maybe excite them or deeply move them.” (FOTR, Prologue)
Has he succeded?
”Brother, you better believe it!”
I'd second this: I don't demand that every story I read has multiple character arcs or that every character is relatable - sometimes I just want a good yarn, with characters that serve the narrative and situations that are reasonably believable in the contest of the setting and characters. I really like this story and have for many years.
Thank you for leading the discussion - it has been most entertaining and interesting.
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sador
Half-elven
Mar 11 2015, 8:37am
Post #53 of 58
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But they did put on a terrible visage. //
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sador
Half-elven
Mar 11 2015, 9:01am
Post #54 of 58
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What literally everyone else I’ve ever encountered in Reading Room discussions over these many years sees as an act of indomitable spirit, inestimable courage, and supreme will seems to me an act of total and complete idiocy.
I've even remembered your post well enough to make a mental note of quoting it: here it is.
But I was only a newbie back then.
I’m thinking it must have been like the Tortoise and the Hare. Glorfindel thought he had plenty of time so stopped to take a nap, then when he woke up and realized slow and steady Strider had passed him up, he put on the gas and it was a photo finish between them at the ford.
Have I said before that the Moody Blues were the best thing to come out of Birmigham since a certain professor?
Your friend is heavy
But he was ready
And never stopped for a while
While you were sleeping
He went on keeping
The final line in his mind
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sador
Half-elven
Mar 11 2015, 9:13am
Post #55 of 58
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(This post was edited by sador on Mar 11 2015, 9:27am)
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sador
Half-elven
Mar 11 2015, 1:20pm
Post #56 of 58
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Who was that man? I would like to shake his hand!
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19. Why would these two Nazgűl doff their black cloaks?
The time for secrecy and hiding is over.
It helps them pick speed, too; but that is a minor concern.
Does it seem strange that they would be robed in white and grey beneath?
As others have pointed out, these are burial shrouds, so it is only to be expected.
But do you think Strider and the hobbits saw these robes indeed? What about Glorfindel?
Is there any significance to Tolkien’s use of “white” and “grey” here?
See above.
It appears that Frodo saw “pale hands” and “cold eyes”. Does this hearken back to Frodo’s comment about a “pale king”?
Surely.
(Hmm.... the Witch-king appears to have gotten another black cloak as he lost his at the dell below Weathertop.)
He used to have three - a spare one in each saddlebag. Now he didn't have the balancing weight on his right side, which is why his horse tripped when the River came rushing own.
Then the old, slashed and tattered one fell out of his left saddlebag - and was eventually found by Elrond's scouts in The Ring Goes South. Note the "slashed" part! How do you think Aragorn knew that "all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King"? You don't know? Apparently, you haven't been reading enough slash-fic... 
20. As the foremost Rider’s horse reared at the water could this mean that their steeds were afraid of water and not the Nazgűl themselves?
That's a nice idea! But alas, it never occured to Tolkien himself...
Is the Nazgűl’s fear of water a difficult concept to sustain?
My father nowhere explained the Ringwraithes fear of water. In the account just cited it is made a chie motive in sauron's assault on Osgiliath, and it reappears in detailed notes on the movements of the Black Riders in the Shire... But it is not made clear how they crossed other rivers that lay in their path, such as the Greyflood, where there was only 'a dangerous ford formed by the ruins of the bridge'. My father did indeed note that the idea was difficult to sustain.
- Christopher Tolkien, in a note to The Hunt for the Ring, Unfinished Tales p. 344.
21. In his fragile state were you surprised at Frodo’s indomitable spirit at this cross-river exchange?
"Foolhardy, you mean. He's a Took!"
(Everybody here is talking about the movie, so I'm joining in. And I do like Darkstone's reading of this episode very much.)
Actually, this action goes back to the very first phase of writing - in which the rather silly Bingo does it in a conscious attempt to imitate Tom Bombadil (The Return of the Shadow p. 126).
Here is a singular example of the Witch-king (leader) having a physical at-a-distance affect on, not only a person, but an object. Are there any others?
I would say something about the windows of The Prancing Pony, but we've went through that one before.
And there is the Gate of Minas Tirith, of course.
22. Well, I can’t get into the cause of this great flood, (It was Elrond. . .shhh – next chapter), whether any Black Riders or their horses survived, nor even whether Frodo survived.
Of course you can. I surely would had I been you - but you knw already how I encroach on other people's chapters. 
Did anyone have any doubts of Frodo’s survival at a first reading?
I'm a Bakshi-firster, so no.
And I think my first reading included the Prologue - so no again.
How far behind were Merry, Pippin, and Sam?
Near enough for Frodo to see their flames from the other side of the River.
Where, when, how did they get the firebrands?
Strider still kept the shards of the stick he broke on the troll (he has a thing for carrying around broken things).
How long would it take the Hobbits to run that last half mile?
More than it would take them to run in the opposite direction, I'm sure.
Glorfindel, Strider?
Long enough for the Witch-king to change cloaks.
Discussion is all I can ask for.
But you won't get it. You've raised an excellent question - to which the only answer is that the dell had flint and tinder in it and the Black Horses stopped for too long a while before entering the River.
Idiots! If they had any chance, it was to cross the Ford before Elrond notices.
He heard and saw no more. Can you think of other instances where Tolkien uses very similar chapter-ending cliff-hangers?
In The Hobbit it appears pretty often. But Books IV and V end with similar cliff-hangers, and arguably Book III as well.
A personal comment:
Should we on occasion cease our intellectual excursions and suppositions and simply recall the joy, the fear, and the tears of our first readings of The Lord of the Rings lest we forget our beginnings into this wondrous epical creation?
It's a good idea. But I doubt I would go back to LotR as often as I do if I haven't found a group of people, at once brilliant, entertaining, sympathetic and pleasant to discuss it with.
Should we on occasion sit back in a quiet corner of our study in our Bag End, with an apple-tart and coffee, and recall the following well known wishes of this extraordinary and inspired man?
Unfortunately, I don't have any apple-tart. But the coffee is a great idea! I'll finish off this post, and go make me some.
Has he succeded?
As far as I'm concerned - he surely did. The same goes for my son, and to a far lesser degree for my wife; my daughters still consider themselves too young to tackle the book.
”Well done!”
I wholeheartedly agree. And the same to you, Bracegirdle!
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Mar 11 2015, 2:02pm
Post #57 of 58
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Just when I thought we were done. . .
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they drag me back in !!
Thanks Sador
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Brethil
Half-elven
Mar 12 2015, 1:00am
Post #58 of 58
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*haha* That's consistent, anyway! //
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But they did put on a terrible visage.
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