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**‘The Fellowship of the Ring’ Discussion, Ch. 12: Flight to the Ford; Pt. 2, HERE BE TROLLS to an INTERLUDE
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Bracegirdle
Valinor


Mar 3 2015, 4:04am

Post #1 of 29 (4661 views)
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**‘The Fellowship of the Ring’ Discussion, Ch. 12: Flight to the Ford; Pt. 2, HERE BE TROLLS to an INTERLUDE Can't Post

Now a mile east of the Last Bridge our company leaves the Road and back on the north side see some ancient walls and tower ruins. Frodo guessed they may be near the “Troll’s wood” where Bilbo had his encounter with Tom, Bert & William.
8. What would cause Frodo to think they may be near Bilbo’s encounter with the three Trolls? Would Frodo in his impaired condition realistically have any idea where they were?

After some small talk Strider informs the Hobbits that he had often been to Rivendell; that he had dwelt there once; and ”There my heart is;. . .” Heart
9. Why was Strider not more forthcoming about his upbringing in Rivendell and that it was now much more than a transitory dwelling place as his statement seems to indicate? Why didn’t any of the Hobbits query him about his obtuse statement – “There my heart is..”?

In the morning of Monday, Oct. 17th Strider left the Hobbits to explore their whereabouts. He found that they had traveled too far north and if they continued they would come far north of Rivendell, and he says, ”That is troll-country, and little known to me.”
10. Do you find it unusual that Aragorn would know little of the Trollshaws or Ettenmoors north of Rivendell as he spent 67 years in exploration and travel since his “coming of age” (if I may)?

The next day as they are trudging southward back toward the East Road Pippin discovers a faint path which leads them to our old beloved three Stone-trolls. Strider to the amazement of the Hobbits said, ”Get up, old stone!” as he broke a stick over the back of one. They all had a good laugh and had their mid-day meal under the shadow of one of the trolls.
Then Merry asks for a bit of a song, and Sam said ”It ain’t what I call proper poetry. . .”, but he began to sing the Stone Troll poem.
11. After all the trials, and challenging miles the company had traveled how do you feel about this light, and somewhat comical moment? Is this Tolkien’s way of again tying The Hobbit to LOTR, or just an amusing bit of comic relief?
Upon first reading Sam’s verse he starts the second stanza, ”Up came Tom with his big boots on.” did you think this song might be about Tom Bombadil? Did Bilbo’s “learning him his letters” aid Sam with this piece of verse which he made up out of his own head (apparently on the spot)? What do you think of Sam’s mastery of verse?


Now, Tuesday afternoon Oct. 18th they continued their trek back southward towards the East Road. Following a path that Gandalf, Bilbo, and the Dwarves probably used 77 years before, they discover the very stone (secretly marked) that Bilbo used to mark the Troll’s treasure. Frodo tells us that Bilbo gave away all this treasure ”as it came from robbers.” (Well, Gandalf took a bit.)
12. Have you ever wondered who Bilbo gave this treasure to? Was it kept in the Baggins/Took family? Or if he gave it to those less financially fortunate why would Bilbo think it proper for them to have a “robber’s treasure” but not himself?
Not intended to be closely related (or preachy), but this brings to mind a statement of Jesus to a rich young man: ”If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven.” -Mathew 19:21. But taken literally the recipients would then no longer be poor, and therefore have no “treasure in heaven”. Thus this giving, in a way, becomes (unintentionally) an act of selfishness – the giver receives, the recipient suffers. (No Biblical effrontery or disrespect is in any way intended!! Just the usual atypical Bracegirdle side-thought.)

(Here I feel forced to take a short personal interlude: I understand that these discussions are meant to be textual, but I must (this one time) mention the film and Peter Jackson’s divergence from the written word.
Was it “chance” or was I “just meant have” this chapter?
It may not be the first, but up to now the foremost “WOW!” factor has become my burden: There have been many defenses as to why PJ discarded Glorfindel. I personally accept none of them. There have been many justifications as to why he portrayed Arwen as more of a warrior-princess, tracker, hunter, rather than the elegant noble Elven Princess that Tolkien wished her to be - Undómiel the Evenstar of her people. To have her be able to stealthily creep up, in the wilds of the Trollshaws, and put sword to the neck of Aragorn “the greatest traveler and huntsman in this age of the world” is an insult to this reader and an affront to the very persona of Arwen, and in no way justifies the abandonment of Glorfindel – IMHO. Much more could be said and has been, perhaps ad nauseam, so . . . back to our travels and. . . [personal interlude off].)

Next: A friend indeed




CuriousG
Half-elven


Mar 3 2015, 12:28pm

Post #2 of 29 (4579 views)
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Glorfindel [In reply to] Can't Post

Starting at the bottom of your post, I will say that I was initially, awfully offended by the movies putting in Arwen for Glorfindel, for all the reasons you give. What's more, I think it's important to a reader's understanding of M-earth and Elves that Glofrindel was able to attack the Nine Riders when unveiled in his wrath. You get a sense that there's a whole other layer to this world, and that Frodo was slipping into it due to the Morgul spell.

But I can say that having watched the movies numerous times, I've gotten used to the changes, and Arwen really grew on me. I love her flight to the ford it's exciting. There are other movie changes I'll never like, such as Faramir's portrayal. So, it's a matter of making peace with things not going your own way.

All the same, if someone did a remake of LOTR, I would make an appeal for Glorfindel's appearance. It's small, but important in understanding the power of the Elves and how they're more than just humans with pointy ears.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Mar 3 2015, 12:34pm

Post #3 of 29 (4562 views)
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Bilbo's treasure [In reply to] Can't Post

Good question about who did he give it to. Was he supporting poorer hobbits in the vicinity? Did it go to his favorite younger relatives? Did Frodo have a huge chunk of it? And if he was so generous, why weren't local hobbits more affectionate of him and not as critical in their gossip? Alfred Nobel and Andrew Carnegie--those are famous rich people who still have good names because of their philanthropy, so why wasn't Bilbo equally fondly remembered by the public? Or was he discreet in his generosity (I suspect this), so it wasn't widely known?


CuriousG
Half-elven


Mar 3 2015, 1:06pm

Post #4 of 29 (4560 views)
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Comic relief [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the dose of comic relief with the trolls comes at the right time in the story's pacing. Seeing the world through Frodo's dimming eyes has been a downer, and there was no relief in sight. Even the elf-stone on the bridge didn't seem to bring any relief--there were no friendly, singing Elves like Gildor nearby to come to the rescue, just more trudging through the wilderness.

How could Frodo recognize the troll wood? My guess is that Bilbo, who was notorious for retelling tales of his adventures long after his listeners had lost polite interest, had told Frodo the troll tale so many times and in such detail that the latter was able to recognize the place.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Mar 3 2015, 3:31pm

Post #5 of 29 (4555 views)
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Here be Trolls - And Here be Prof Tolkien singing the Troll Song :) [In reply to] Can't Post

http://youtu.be/gGMFHvxAn4g

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Mar 3 2015, 4:15pm

Post #6 of 29 (4551 views)
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Some Responses [In reply to] Can't Post

8. What would cause Frodo to think they may be near Bilbo’s encounter with the three Trolls? Would Frodo in his impaired condition realistically have any idea where they were?

Frodo would have been familiar enough with Bilbo's story to recognize the location from his description. I don't have any problem with him experiencing periods of lucidness that would allow him to know where he is.

9. Why was Strider not more forthcoming about his upbringing in Rivendell and that it was now much more than a transitory dwelling place as his statement seems to indicate? Why didn’t any of the Hobbits query him about his obtuse statement – “There my heart is..”?

Aragorn is a private person. It is remarkable enough that he has opened up this much. The hobbits likely made their own assumptions about what Strider meant.

10. Do you find it unusual that Aragorn would know little of the Trollshaws or Ettenmoors north of Rivendell as he spent 67 years in exploration and travel since his “coming of age” (if I may)?

It is not unusual when we consider that Aragorn's wanderings took him far to the south and east of Rivendell. Yes, the Ettenmoors and Trollshaws are nearby, but they are not places where one would want to travel alone for an extended period of time. Patrols by Elrond's folk were probably mostly limited to the Lone-lands and the Angle.

11. After all the trials, and challenging miles the company had traveled how do you feel about this light, and somewhat comical moment? Is this Tolkien’s way of again tying The Hobbit to LOTR, or just an amusing bit of comic relief?
Upon first reading Sam’s verse he starts the second stanza, ”Up came Tom with his big boots on.” did you think this song might be about Tom Bombadil? Did Bilbo’s “learning him his letters” aid Sam with this piece of verse which he made up out of his own head (apparently on the spot)? What do you think of Sam’s mastery of verse?


We could probably use a moment of lightness at this point since things have otherwise been so grim. It might also be an artefact from the early drafts of the story, when it was more of a direct sequel to The Hobbit. The originator of the song might have had Bombadil in mind, but I doubt that Old Tom ever had an uncle.

12. Have you ever wondered who Bilbo gave this treasure to? Was it kept in the Baggins/Took family? Or if he gave it to those less financially fortunate why would Bilbo think it proper for them to have a “robber’s treasure” but not himself?

I don't think we can narrow it down to anyone specific. He might have gifted some of it to young couples just starting out (maybe a gift was made to Frodo's parents when they married). Parts might have been donated to Hobbiton and other parts of the Shire to benefit the unfortunate. As long as it was used to do good and not to benefit himsself, I don't think that Bilbo would have qualms about the recipients.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


noWizardme
Half-elven


Mar 3 2015, 4:26pm

Post #7 of 29 (4547 views)
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What, Trolls here? [In reply to] Can't Post

Aha, CuriusG beats me to it this time. Not that it's a race, oh no. But I'm know from chapters I've led how nice it is to get some responses in! Wink


In Reply To
8. What would cause Frodo to think they may be near Bilbo’s encounter with the three Trolls? Would Frodo in his impaired condition realistically have any idea where they were?

and

11. After all the trials, and challenging miles the company had traveled how do you feel about this light, and somewhat comical moment? Is this Tolkien’s way of again tying The Hobbit to LOTR, or just an amusing bit of comic relief?
Upon first reading Sam’s verse he starts the second stanza, ”Up came Tom with his big boots on.” did you think this song might be about Tom Bombadil? Did Bilbo’s “learning him his letters” aid Sam with this piece of verse which he made up out of his own head (apparently on the spot)? What do you think of Sam’s mastery of verse?


This Troll episode generally - if memory serves, Tolkien had it in the story from his earliest outlines. It's a bit of an unusual link-up (if that's the word) with The Hobbit.

Maybe it's just a bit of messing about, to lighten the mood after Frodo's wounding. I think Tolkien likes his Troll Song (he certainly seems to enjoy singing it in the recording), and maybe he is eager to get it in. As a too-serious teenage reader, of course I hated this bit.. Mad (I've matured a bit now).

However, it is nice that we keep on seeing unexpected facets to Sam - at this rate he does indeed risk becoming a wizard...or a warrior.


In Reply To
9. Why was Strider not more forthcoming about his upbringing in Rivendell and that it was now much more than a transitory dwelling place as his statement seems to indicate? Why didn’t any of the Hobbits query him about his obtuse statement – “There my heart is..”?


I think it suits Tolkien to keep Strider mysterious for now. And the “There my heart is..” bit does certainly suggest he's referring to a romance. After which the Hobbits (basically Edwardian English Gentlemen, except Sam) would certainly press no further. BTW, I think Aragorn uses a similarly vague phrase to Eowyn, trying to hint that he has an existing attachment but without it being necessary to confront directly that he's noticed that she....etc.



In Reply To
10. Do you find it unusual that Aragorn would know little of the Trollshaws or Ettenmoors north of Rivendell as he spent 67 years in exploration and travel since his “coming of age” (if I may)?


Trollshaws and Ettenmoors seem to be places where highly experienced travellers get "lost" (Gandalf too, round about this time). What are they really up to in there, that makes them so forgetful, I wonder?



Oh, I see... It's Gandalf's Mirouvoir stash.

(from http://s25.photobucket.com/...alf-miruvor.jpg.html )



In Reply To
12. Have you ever wondered who Bilbo gave this treasure to? Was it kept in the Baggins/Took family? Or if he gave it to those less financially fortunate why would Bilbo think it proper for them to have a “robber’s treasure” but not himself?


There's a bit of the old "dragon sickness" theme here perhaps - the idea that Smaug's treasure needs to be scattered to break its curse. And similarly, Tom Bom. wants to scatter the loot from the Barrow. Maybe Bilbo was wise to disburse his troll treasure. Keep the dosage down below the point where it does anyone harm...

Interlude - "What's this, a Ranger caught off his guard?"


(from http://www.standard.co.uk/...rangers-9804585.html

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Mar 3 2015, 5:24pm

Post #8 of 29 (4532 views)
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Thanks noWiz... He had a 'decent' voice even.. :) [In reply to] Can't Post

 




Bracegirdle
Valinor


Mar 3 2015, 5:41pm

Post #9 of 29 (4532 views)
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Thanks for your reasonable and logical responses Otaku [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The originator of the song might have had Bombadil in mind, but I doubt that Old Tom ever had an uncle.

But he might have had a “nuncle”. WinkWink

Naw! As he was Eldest I guess he couldn't have had an uncle or a nuncle.




Riven Delve
Tol Eressea


Mar 3 2015, 6:21pm

Post #10 of 29 (4531 views)
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Glorfindel--the much-replac'd lord [In reply to] Can't Post

He got ousted from the Bakshi movie too in favor of Legolas. Pirate


“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”



Darkstone
Immortal


Mar 3 2015, 6:49pm

Post #11 of 29 (4540 views)
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The Worf, er, that is, Strider Effect [In reply to] Can't Post

Now a mile east of the Last Bridge our company leaves the Road and back on the north side see some ancient walls and tower ruins. Frodo guessed they may be near the “Troll’s wood” where Bilbo had his encounter with Tom, Bert & William.
8. What would cause Frodo to think they may be near Bilbo’s encounter with the three Trolls?


Remembering the description of the location from the many times Bilbo has related the tale:

As they went forward the hills about them steadily rose. Here and there upon heights and ridges they caught glimpses of ancient walls of stone, and the ruins of towers: they had an ominous look. Frodo, who was not walking, had time to gaze ahead and to think. He recalled Bilbo's account of his journey and the threatening towers on the hills north of the Road, in the country near the Troll's wood where his first serious adventure had happened. Frodo guessed that they were now in the same region, and wondered if by chance they would pass near the spot.

Not to mention the many times Frodo himself has told the tale:

'I had no idea we were anywhere near the place!' said Pippin. He knew the story well. Bilbo and Frodo had told it often...'


Would Frodo in his impaired condition realistically have any idea where they were?

Absolutely. Often in such feverish straits the mind can pick up details that would escape one in times of more clarity. The functioning of the brain under stress, fever, and/or wounds can be quite surprising.

2nd Lieutenant Tolkien would be quite aware of the mental behavior of wounded, severely wounded, and dying men from his experiences in the trenches.


After some small talk Strider informs the Hobbits that he had often been to Rivendell; that he had dwelt there once; and ”There my heart is;. . .”
9. Why was Strider not more forthcoming about his upbringing in Rivendell and that it was now much more than a transitory dwelling place as his statement seems to indicate?


Standard need-to-know security practice. It seems quite possible some or all of the hobbits will be captured. The less they know about Isildur’s Heir the less they will reveal under torture.

Again, Signals Officer Tolkien would be quite aware of such need.

Of course if capture seems inevitable Strider may well take matters into his own hands, silence the hobbits, and afterwards slip away by himself with the ring.

Then it’s Isildur and the Gladden Fields all over again.


Why didn’t any of the Hobbits query him about his obtuse statement – “There my heart is..”?

No doubt far more concerned with Frodo’s own critical condition as well as their own perilous situation than to really be interested in Strider’s coy asides.


In the morning of Monday, Oct. 17th Strider left the Hobbits to explore their whereabouts. He found that they had traveled too far north and if they continued they would come far north of Rivendell, and he says, ”That is troll-country, and little known to me.”
10. Do you find it unusual that Aragorn would know little of the Trollshaws or Ettenmoors north of Rivendell as he spent 67 years in exploration and travel since his “coming of age” (if I may)?


On the contrary, he’s no doubt garnered enough experience over the past 67 years to have learned to avoid trolls entirely.


The next day as they are trudging southward back toward the East Road Pippin discovers a faint path which leads them to our old beloved three Stone-trolls. Strider to the amazement of the Hobbits said, ”Get up, old stone!” as he broke a stick over the back of one. They all had a good laugh and had their mid-day meal under the shadow of one of the trolls.
Then Merry asks for a bit of a song, and Sam said ”It ain’t what I call proper poetry. . .”, but he began to sing the Stone Troll poem.
11. After all the trials, and challenging miles the company had traveled how do you feel about this light, and somewhat comical moment?


Seems an extremely realistic touch to me, though to be truly authentic Strider might have done something a bit more crude with the stick.


Is this Tolkien’s way of again tying The Hobbit to LOTR, or just an amusing bit of comic relief?

A group constantly under stress will take any opportunity to relieve that stress, and that release often takes the form of macabre, crude, or even childish humor that outside observers would find puzzling, nonsensical, and/or offensive which is precisely why you really don’t want to eavesdrop on the casual conversations between doctors, nurses, policemen, soldiers, or any members of similar stress-filled professions.

Again, 2nd Lieutenant Tolkien, etc., etc.


Upon first reading Sam’s verse he starts the second stanza, ”Up came Tom with his big boots on.” did you think this song might be about Tom Bombadil?

Or maybe Tom Mix. I mean, Tolkien was producing a mythology of the West, and how much more western and mythological can you get?


Did Bilbo’s “learning him his letters” aid Sam with this piece of verse which he made up out of his own head (apparently on the spot)?

Probably.


What do you think of Sam’s mastery of verse?

Quite nice, though to be honest oral-formulaic compositions such as Homeric epics, Old English poetry, Japanese Renku, African-American street rap, Rivendell Tra-lal-lally verse, and Numenorean elegies provide existing underlying forms so as to easily facilitate improvisation, thus it’s really the phrasing that displays the genius.

Still, Sam’s effort is quite impressive, both in execution and composition.


Now, Tuesday afternoon Oct. 18th they continued their trek back southward towards the East Road. Following a path that Gandalf, Bilbo, and the Dwarves probably used 77 years before, they discover the very stone (secretly marked) that Bilbo used to mark the Troll’s treasure.

Frodo tells us that Bilbo gave away all this treasure ”as it came from robbers.” (Well, Gandalf took a bit.)
12. Have you ever wondered who Bilbo gave this treasure to?


His gold and silver was largely spent in presents, both useful and extravagant…
-The Last Stage


Was it kept in the Baggins/Took family?

...– which to a certain extent accounts for the affection of his nephews and his nieces.
-ibid


Or if he gave it to those less financially fortunate why would Bilbo think it proper for them to have a “robber’s treasure” but not himself?

A robber’s treasure is like manure: You pile it up in one place and it starts to stink. You spread it around and it helps things grow.

I note that's also the basic principle of ring-giving by the ring-thane in Anglo-Saxon culture.


Not intended to be closely related (or preachy), but this brings to mind a statement of Jesus to a rich young man: ”If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven.” -Mathew 19:21.

Actually this is Jesus being a bit snippy to a highminded young man.

The previous verses put this statement into context:

And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

-Matthew 19:16-21

So the young man comes to Jesus, asks what all to do to have eternal life, Jesus tells him to obey the commandments, the young kid says no problem, been there, done that, bought the t-shirt, so Jesus tells the kid what to do if he really, really, really wants to be "perfect".

Of course the joke is everyone’s a sinner, nobody’s perfect except God, and so the kid’s bragging that he’s kept all the commandments from his youth on up is obviously hogwash so Jesus calls him on it.


But taken literally the recipients would then no longer be poor, and therefore have no “treasure in heaven”. Thus this giving, in a way, becomes (unintentionally) an act of selfishness – the giver receives, the recipient suffers. (No Biblical effrontery or disrespect is in any way intended!! Just the usual atypical Bracegirdle side-thought.)

A less sarcastic, more realistic passage is 1 Timothy 6:17-19:

Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;
That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.



Which of course is exactly what Bilbo does.


(Here I feel forced to take a short personal interlude: I understand that these discussions are meant to be textual, but I must (this one time) mention the film and Peter Jackson’s divergence from the written word.
Was it “chance” or was I “just meant have” this chapter?
It may not be the first, but up to now the foremost “WOW!” factor has become my burden: There have been many defenses as to why PJ discarded Glorfindel. I personally accept none of them.


Members of Team Bombadil feel exactly the same way. There’s also a Team Imrahil, a Team Ioreth, a Team Ghân-buri-Ghân, ad infinitum.


There have been many justifications as to why he portrayed Arwen as more of a warrior-princess, tracker, hunter, rather than the elegant noble Elven Princess that Tolkien wished her to be - Undómiel the Evenstar of her people. To have her be able to stealthily creep up, in the wilds of the Trollshaws, and put sword to the neck of Aragorn “the greatest traveler and huntsman in this age of the world”…

“I have yet to have an author inform me that a character is charming, and then, by that character’s deeds and conversation, convince me of that fact.”
-Dorothy Parker, "These Much Too Charming People”

Actions speak louder than words and quite frankly Strider’s leading them into an ambush, allowing Frodo to be wounded, getting them lost, etc. belie that description. I won’t even mention the three ring circus of catastrophe that is Amon Hen.


... is an insult to this reader and an affront to the very persona of Arwen,…

That assumes that the cypher that is book Arwen has a persona to affront.


Much more could be said and has been, perhaps ad nauseam,…

That’s for sure, that’s for dang sure.

******************************************
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a wonderful town!!!
Mount Doom blew up,
And the Black Tower's down!!
The orcs all fell in a hole in the ground!
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a heckuva town!!!

-Lord of the Rings: The Musical, music by Leonard Bernstein, lyrics by Betty Comden and Adolph Green


Riven Delve
Tol Eressea


Mar 3 2015, 8:33pm

Post #12 of 29 (4507 views)
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Some thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

9. Why was Strider not more forthcoming about his upbringing in Rivendell and that it was now much more than a transitory dwelling place as his statement seems to indicate? Why didn’t any of the Hobbits query him about his obtuse statement – “There my heart is..”?

"Strider" and "forthcoming" don't really seem to go together to me. Wink As others have mentioned, the Hobbits are too gentlemanly to press him on such a personal issue (except for Sam, who Knows His Place). Besides, Strider is not terribly approachable normally, much less when one is asking cheeky questions.


11. After all the trials, and challenging miles the company had traveled how do you feel about this light, and somewhat comical moment? Is this Tolkien’s way of again tying The Hobbit to LOTR, or just an amusing bit of comic relief?
Upon first reading Sam’s verse he starts the second stanza, ”Up came Tom with his big boots on.” did you think this song might be about Tom Bombadil? Did Bilbo’s “learning him his letters” aid Sam with this piece of verse which he made up out of his own head (apparently on the spot)? What do you think of Sam’s mastery of verse?



Yes, I think this is comic relief--and possibly a tie to the lighter TH tone. I don't think the song is about Tom Bombadil (surely there are other guys named Tom out there who wear boots). As for Sam, I bet Sam's been working on this one in his head for a while. Deep waters is our Sam! Bilbo must have loved filling him up with stories when he was a lad. Smile


I'm puzzled by the phrase "standing up, with his hands behind his back, as if he was at school." Do Hobbits have schools? I thought they were taught at home...? Or is this an instance of Tolkien speaking more of what the audience will relate to than what the characters could?


12. Have you ever wondered who Bilbo gave this treasure to? Was it kept in the Baggins/Took family? Or if he gave it to those less financially fortunate why would Bilbo think it proper for them to have a “robber’s treasure” but not himself?

As Darkstone mentioned above, the end of TH tells us where a lot of it went. And toward getting his already-auctioned-off items back.


”If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven.” -Mathew 19:21. But taken literally the recipients would then no longer be poor, and therefore have no “treasure in heaven”. Thus this giving, in a way, becomes (unintentionally) an act of selfishness – the giver receives, the recipient suffers. (No Biblical effrontery or disrespect is in any way intended!! Just the usual atypical Bracegirdle side-thought.)

Not sure I follow your logic--this verse doesn't say that you have treasure in heaven if you're poor; it says that you have treasure in heaven if you give to the poor.


“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”



(This post was edited by Riven Delve on Mar 3 2015, 8:46pm)


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Mar 3 2015, 9:23pm

Post #13 of 29 (4499 views)
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Appreciate it Darkstone [In reply to] Can't Post

I always enjoy your humorous and ingenious comments.
To have you take a (mostly) serious approach to my elementary questionings and discussions gives me great pleasure. Perhaps my somewhat impaired efforts have touched upon a ‘Dark’stone ‘bright’ness?

Thanks for your participation!




Bracegirdle
Valinor


Mar 3 2015, 9:40pm

Post #14 of 29 (4495 views)
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Interesting Riven Delve [In reply to] Can't Post

”If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven.” -Mathew 19:21. But taken literally the recipients would then no longer be poor, and therefore have no “treasure in heaven”. Thus this giving, in a way, becomes (unintentionally) an act of selfishness – the giver receives, the recipient suffers. (No Biblical effrontery or disrespect is in any way intended!! Just the usual atypical Bracegirdle side-thought.)

Not sure I follow your logic--this verse doesn't say that you have treasure in heaven if you're poor; it says that you have treasure in heaven if you give to the poor.

Aha, this can be read in different ways. I’d not thought of yours. Always assumed he meant you must be poor, (if you sell and give all away – YOU are poor). As in, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Good point…




Riven Delve
Tol Eressea


Mar 3 2015, 9:55pm

Post #15 of 29 (4488 views)
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Aha! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Aha, this can be read in different ways. I’d not thought of yours. Always assumed he meant you must be poor, (if you sell and give all away – YOU are poor). As in, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.




Now I gotcha. I had never before thought of the way you're reading it either!


We had better be careful or all this open-mindedness will go to our heads. Angelic Wink




“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”



Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea

Mar 3 2015, 11:59pm

Post #16 of 29 (4474 views)
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Strider is very confident in dealing with Trolls when the sun is high in the sky [In reply to] Can't Post

But supposing it had been the Olog Trolls which can bear the sunlight that had been there?


Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea

Mar 4 2015, 12:01am

Post #17 of 29 (4474 views)
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Glorfindel does actually appear [In reply to] Can't Post

Though it is understandable if anyone missed it, but he is one of the Elf-lords whom are seen at the Grey Havens in just about the last scene in the DVD's. And of course most of his lines and his role are still supplanted.


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Mar 4 2015, 12:17am

Post #18 of 29 (4469 views)
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Well, I don’t think... [In reply to] Can't Post

the Olog-hai had been seen (or known of?) in the north at this time. Besides Aragorn saw “an old bird’s nest” behind the ear of one.


In Reply To
Though it is understandable if anyone missed it, but he is one of the Elf-lords whom are seen at the Grey Havens in just about the last scene in the DVD's. And of course most of his lines and his role are still supplanted.


Yes, I missed it! Was the name “Glorfindel” used? Or did it just “look” like Glorfindel would look? Or possibly in an Extended Ed.?

Thanks Hamfast ____ Smile




Brethil
Half-elven


Mar 4 2015, 11:45pm

Post #19 of 29 (4417 views)
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Strider, Trolls and loot [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
11. After all the trials, and challenging miles the company had traveled how do you feel about this light, and somewhat comical moment? Is this Tolkien’s way of again tying The Hobbit to LOTR, or just an amusing bit of comic relief?
Upon first reading Sam’s verse he starts the second stanza, ”Up came Tom with his big boots on.” did you think this song might be about Tom Bombadil? Did Bilbo’s “learning him his letters” aid Sam with this piece of verse which he made up out of his own head (apparently on the spot)? What do you think of Sam’s mastery of verse?

8. What would cause Frodo to think they may be near Bilbo’s encounter with the three Trolls? Would Frodo in his impaired condition realistically have any idea where they were?

Troll talk: indeed I think the passing of the Trolls is a way to add internal history to the LOTR tale. I do think that Frodo could know where he was, with periods of clarity interspersed with confusion. And similar to Sam's treasuring that bit of verse by Bilbo, Frodo likewise treasures Bilbo's tales enough to recall the Trolls even when ill. So I think both things are a sign of generational fondness that this batch of adventurers has for the original Adventurer.



After some small talk Strider informs the Hobbits that he had often been to Rivendell; that he had dwelt there once; and ”There my heart is;. . .” Heart
9. Why was Strider not more forthcoming about his upbringing in Rivendell and that it was now much more than a transitory dwelling place as his statement seems to indicate? Why didn’t any of the Hobbits query him about his obtuse statement – “There my heart is..”?

10. Do you find it unusual that Aragorn would know little of the Trollshaws or Ettenmoors north of Rivendell as he spent 67 years in exploration and travel since his “coming of age” (if I may)?

Things we learn about Strider: he's a complex man; and he is a bit overconfident at times: his previous 'my short cuts never go wrong' aren't quite 100% perfect as we see here. Lessons on JRRT's model of humanity, in that emotions run deep and have hidden history, and that humans are not as perfect as say, Elves might be. The way we are presented with Glorfindel is that early comparison of the 'magic' and grace of Elves a bit in contrast to our human hero. Which considering JRRT did not want the Firstborn to merely be stylized yellow-haired humans, that first impression comparison has to show some signs of innate differences. Not that Aragorn is still not impressive: he is.




12. Have you ever wondered who Bilbo gave this treasure to? Was it kept in the Baggins/Took family? Or if he gave it to those less financially fortunate why would Bilbo think it proper for them to have a “robber’s treasure” but not himself?

I think any guilt from 'robbers' does not transmit to the receivers of charity. Like the bricks that after the Scouring make many a hobbit-hole snugger and drier, the needs of the living and the lack of avarice of Bilbo make things better for all.









Bracegirdle
Valinor


Mar 5 2015, 1:24am

Post #20 of 29 (4404 views)
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Trolls and Troll-dough [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Troll talk: indeed I think the passing of the Trolls is a way to add internal history to the LOTR tale. I do think that Frodo could know where he was, with periods of clarity interspersed with confusion. And similar to Sam's treasuring that bit of verse by Bilbo, Frodo likewise treasures Bilbo's tales enough to recall the Trolls even when ill. So I think both things are a sign of generational fondness that this batch of adventurers has for the original Adventurer.

Agreed with all these good points Brethil. Just wondering about the highlighted - a little confused; are you talking about Sam’s “Troll Song”?


Quote
I think any guilt from 'robbers' does not transmit to the receivers of charity. Like the bricks that after the Scouring make many a hobbit-hole snugger and drier, the needs of the living and the lack of avarice of Bilbo make things better for all.


I was attempting here to advance the notion that it was Bilbo that felt guilt at having a “robbers treasure”, and that’s why he gave it away. You’re right in that the receivers need have no guilt having (not necessarily) any notion that it was from a “robbers” loot. But even at that there’s little reason for anyone to feel guilty at having any of this $. The Trolls are stone and would have little use for it…. WinkWink




Brethil
Half-elven


Mar 5 2015, 1:39am

Post #21 of 29 (4408 views)
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Ah - I forgot to complete my point! [In reply to] Can't Post

with Sam's verse *inspired* by Bilbo's song-making...I do believe that's what I meant to convey! Laugh Similar to the young adventurers tipping hat to the old Adventurer, at whose knee they learned such things.


(I wonder, *did* Sam just think if it on the spot - or had those stories of Mr. Bilbo had Sam thinking about Trolls a long time ago?)








(This post was edited by Brethil on Mar 5 2015, 1:42am)


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Mar 5 2015, 2:39am

Post #22 of 29 (4398 views)
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All is well in Middle-earth... [In reply to] Can't Post

I was sure it was just a typo or a hurried thought. Unsure

Yes, I’m sure Sam had previous thoughts of Trolls, just as he had with Elves. Nevertheless a clever bit-o-verse.




Brethil
Half-elven


Mar 5 2015, 2:59am

Post #23 of 29 (4395 views)
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Yes...as I was typing to two of your posts at once... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I was sure it was just a typo or a hurried thought. Unsure I'm sadly a one-trick pony sometimes, to my dismay. Laugh




The while bit of extemporaneous complex verse like that does bring to mind that our Sam has perhaps been thinking about things Beyond The Borders for a while; and what would the Gaffer say about that! It is clever indeed...but also maybe a fun but revealing sign of Sam's internal bits.








noWizardme
Half-elven


Mar 5 2015, 5:10pm

Post #24 of 29 (4378 views)
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Glorfindel, causer of much trouble [In reply to] Can't Post

That's an interesting point, that I'd not thought about in that way:


In Reply To
I think it's important to a reader's understanding of M-earth and Elves that Glofrindel was able to attack the Nine Riders when unveiled in his wrath. You get a sense that there's a whole other layer to this world, and that Frodo was slipping into it due to the Morgul spell.


It might be an answer to something I've sometimes wondered - why Tolkien felt it was important to introduce Glorfindel, when it caused him a lot of trouble.

What I mean is that (as I understand it):

Glorfindel "appears" in the drafts we see in HoME (I don't recall there being any plot outlines or notes leading up to the moment when Tolkien drafts Glorfindel's appearance). So we don't have any evidence about Tolkien's thought processes on this,

Tolkien already knows of a character called Glorfindel from his earlier works on The Fall Of Gondolin etc. Rather than decide that this is another person with the same name, he discovers/decides that it is the same person last seen falling off a cliff clutching a balrog. This puts him to some trouble to work out how the Original Glorfindel could be up and about in Middle Earth again. I beleive that there's a surviving plot outline in whch Glorfindel was to talk about his life in Gondolin (and possibly tell us about balrogs) but Tolkien decided against it. So this rethinking was, not in the end anything Tolkien readers were going to see during the Prof's lifetime.

Having introduced such a wonderful character though, it can seem odd that Tolkien doesn't want him as part of the Fellowship. As far as I recall, Glorfindel was never in the various Fellowship IX's (http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=749635#749635 ).

Nope, not even this line-up:


Lord of the Ponies: Fellowship is Magic by Allison-beriyani http://allison-beriyani.deviantart.com/...p-is-Magic-299402497


Leaving Glorfindel behind in Rivendell seems odd, given that a reader is quite likely to think that he looks like he might be useful in a fight. There's a bit of foot-shuffling over why he can't come, if you ask me. Too much of a balrog magnet, perhaps? Smile)


So (you might think) it's a lot of trouble to go to if we're just trying to send in the cavalry: the various film solutions (Legolas, Arwen) achieve that, or had Tolkien merely wanted a powerful rescuer to turn up at this point it could have been Gandalf, or Elrond for example. (Note I'm not saying that these plots would be better, only that you might think they were less work for a busy writer with a day job...)

I like the idea, though, that we have a flicker of the First Age here.

Oh, I also wanted to remind people of a good TAS piece about Glorfindel http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=668192#668192

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


CuriousG
Half-elven


Mar 5 2015, 6:30pm

Post #25 of 29 (4373 views)
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Glorfindel left behind [In reply to] Can't Post

Once again, the logic doesn't quite work. Gandalf tells Elrond that a mighty warrior like Glorfindel might attract too much attention to the Fellowship, which need to rely on stealth instead, but then mighty warriors like Boromir and Elendil's Heir and a Wizard are assigned to the group, so leaving Glorfindel behind doesn't make much sense, and there was nothing magical about the number Nine in the Fellowship anyway: they weren't truly matched for one-to-one combat with the Nine Riders and in fact never saw all Nine Riders again anyway. They could have easily been Ten or Twelve.

My own view is that JRR was stressing that it was the little, overlooked people who were going to shake up the world in this great quest in place of the Great, which is why Merry & Pippin got spots in the Fellowship over Glorfindel.

Looking ahead, there is the description of the feast where Gandalf, Elrond, and Glorfindel are compared and contrasted, and on first read, that convinced me that Glorfindel, receiving this distinction of exposition, would somehow figure into the story more, but instead, he completely disappears. It seems like an abandoned thread.

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