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Brethil
Half-elven
Mar 5 2015, 7:25pm
Post #26 of 29
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Yes, like the Elves are retreating already.
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My own view is that JRR was stressing that it was the little, overlooked people who were going to shake up the world in this great quest in place of the Great, which is why Merry & Pippin got spots in the Fellowship over Glorfindel.
And since the Sil is in JRRT's heart already, from his authorial standpoint the Elves have already lost so much, bled so much in this contest that their part is waning as Eru intended and the other races must shoulder the Third-Age burdens. Glorfindel has faced the W-K already (and a Balrog, if we accept the rebodied Glorfindel idea)...these terrifying to the Hobbits are a 'past' to him, even though this present is still very real, I can imagine Elven battle fatigue. In a sense, this is one of those examples where I can see JRRT's point in desiring the Sil to be published contemporaneously or soon after LOTR as a companion-volume. Because maybe in its way it answers questions for LOTR readers that otherwise might not make sense at first glance, or that are very thematic and history-based.
Does LOTR stand on its own? Yes...but there are areas where that sense of the Elves and their past play a bit in understanding them. We get info in Shadow, and in the Council, but he actual stories do illuminate their past.
(This post was edited by Brethil on Mar 5 2015, 7:26pm)
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Mar 5 2015, 9:29pm
Post #27 of 29
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Why was Strider not more forthcoming about his upbringing in Rivendell and that it was now much more than a transitory dwelling place as his statement seems to indicate? Why didn’t any of the Hobbits query him about his obtuse statement – “There my heart is..”?
Strider is speaking more to the readers--us--than the hobbits.
Plus....
*dum* *dum* *dum* FORESHADOWING!
Do you find it unusual that Aragorn would know little of the Trollshaws or Ettenmoors north of Rivendell as he spent 67 years in exploration and travel since his “coming of age” (if I may)?
Never thought about it, but his concerns seem to be more in Gondor or Rohan and the South. I'm thinking also, that peerhaps there was some kind of occuparion of evil in the old Northern Kingdoms. IIRC repopulation after the WoTR proceeded only slowly...
After all the trials, and challenging miles the company had traveled how do you feel about this light, and somewhat comical moment? Is this Tolkien’s way of again tying The Hobbit to LOTR, or just an amusing bit of comic relief?
I think it is a call-back to the hobbit, yes, but others have said all I would say, and better too!
Upon first reading Sam’s verse he starts the second stanza, ”Up came Tom with his big boots on.” did you think this song might be about Tom Bombadil?
Tom is a pretty common name. Maybe he has Bombadil on the brain? It is the first one he thinks of?
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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sador
Half-elven
Mar 9 2015, 1:25pm
Post #28 of 29
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"I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like 'religion'... in the imaginary world."
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- Letter 142.
I have often wondered what that statement means.
Were the characters supposed to have religion, and Tolkien edited out all references to it?
Or did Tolkien restrain himself when writing, to avoid the religious interjections which came naturally to him?
More on this below.
8. What would cause Frodo to think they may be near Bilbo’s encounter with the three Trolls?
Well, Strider mentioned that up north is troll-country, so once they crossed the Last Bridge, Frodo would naturally expect to be in the vicinity...
(However, looking downthread it appears that I've got the order of statements wrong; however, The Last Bridge should be really connected in his mind to Bilbo's earlier journey).
That is, if he read the secret 1960 rewrite of The Hobbit (published by Rateliff in The History of the Hobbit). From the published book there is no way he would think of that.
Would Frodo in his impaired condition realistically have any idea where they were? Lemme see... he mentions the trolls were caught by Gandalf arguing on how to cook thirteen dwarves and one hobbit. So he couldn't have read the secret verion, could he? (according to that version, Bombur wasn't caught - see here).
Perhaps he miscounted, due to his impaired condition (as you put it).
9. Why was Strider not more forthcoming about his upbringing in Rivendell and that it was now much more than a transitory dwelling place as his statement seems to indicate?
Well, Tolkien hadn't made up that bit yet...
But seriously, why shoiuld he? He doesn't tell the hobbits everything about himself, yet, and they don't seem to be overly interested.
Why didn’t any of the Hobbits query him about his obtuse statement – “There my heart is..”?
Really? And have him pry about Rosie?
In the morning of Monday, Oct. 17th Strider left the Hobbits to explore their whereabouts. He found that they had traveled too far north and if they continued they would come far north of Rivendell, and he says, ”That is troll-country, and little known to me.”
10. Do you find it unusual that Aragorn would know little of the Trollshaws or Ettenmoors north of Rivendell as he spent 67 years in exploration and travel since his “coming of age” (if I may)?
Not unusual, but it directly contradicts his boast in Strider of his knowing all the lands from the Shire to the Misty Mountains.
11. After all the trials, and challenging miles the company had traveled how do you feel about this light, and somewhat comical moment?
Nice.
Is this Tolkien’s way of again tying The Hobbit to LOTR, or just an amusing bit of comic relief?
I won't put it beyond Strider...
Seriously. Providing the hobbits with a bit of comic relief at the stage is of utmost importance.
Upon first reading Sam’s verse he starts the second stanza, ”Up came Tom with his big boots on.” did you think this song might be about Tom Bombadil?
I doubt that it occured to me.
Did Bilbo’s “learning him his letters” aid Sam with this piece of verse which he made up out of his own head (apparently on the spot)?
I don't think he made it on the spot.
But it is very impressive nevertheless.
What do you think of Sam’s mastery of verse?
Well coming after Gil-galad was an Elven-king... on Weathertop, we might have guessed.
Now regarding the consious deletion of references to religion, I must present four stanzas of the original The Root of the Boot, as was published in 1936 in Songs for the Philologists, and later by Christopher Tolkien The Return of the Shadow, page 143 (I hope this doesn't infringe copyright. If it does, the vigilant mods will delete it):
Up came Tom with his big boots on
'Hallo!' says he, 'pray what is yon?
It looks like the leg o' me nuncle John
As should be a-lyin' in churchyard
Searchyard, Birchyard!
It looks like the leg o' me nuncle John
As should be a-lyin' in churchyard.'
'Young man,' says the troll, 'that bone I stole;
But what be bones, when mayhap the soul
In heaven high hath an aureole
As big and as bright as a bonfire?
On fire, yon fire!
In heaven high hath an aureole
As big and as bright as a bonfire?'
Says Tom: 'Oddsteeth! 'tis my belief
If bonfire there be, 'tis underneath;
For old man John was as proper a thief
As ever wore black on a Sunday -
Grundy, Monday!
For old man John was as proper a thief
As ever wore black on a Sunday.
But still I don't see what is that to thee
Wi' me kith and me kin a-makin' free
So get to hell and ax leave o' he
Afore thou gnaws me nuncle!
Uncle, Buncle!
So get to hell and ax leave o' he
Afore thou gnaws me nuncle!'
Why do you think of this lovely bit?
I for one think the language is far more what I would expect of Sam. No Queen's English from a gardener.
12. Have you ever wondered who Bilbo gave this treasure to?
Insurance companies, lawyers (the faithful Grubb, Gruub and Burrows) and sundry blackmailers.
Was it kept in the Baggins/Took family?
As the saying goes, what happens in the Baggins/Took family, stays in the Baggins/Took family.
Or if he gave it to those less financially fortunate why would Bilbo think it proper for them to have a “robber’s treasure” but not himself?
Isn't that a common practice for expiating sins - giving unlawfully-acquired money to charity?
Was it “chance” or was I “just meant have” this chapter?
Didn't you ask for it?
There have been many defenses as to why PJ discarded Glorfindel. I personally accept none of them.
So don't.
As for me, Glorfindel was never my favourite elf. I find him good, powerful, generous... in short, bland to the point of being completely uninteresting. Even among Elrond's characters, Erestor and Galdor have more personality to them. Glorfindel is cool, and just that.
The main problem Jackson had (and Bakshi before him) was what to do with this terrific, powerful, ober-cool elf who would easily put Legolas in the shade of Mirkwood where he belongs. In the book, Gandalf dismisses the option of his joining the Company before Elrond even mentions it, so that's that; but in the films?
One solution would have been to send him to Helm's Deep, as the leader of the Rivendell company (I mean - who appointed Haldir as captain? And why would Galadriel need, or allow, Elrond to send her own soldiers as reinforcements?). Then he could have been conviniently and heroically slain.
This would have actually worked, I think. But would the Glorfindel fans like it? (whistling)
There have been many justifications as to why he portrayed Arwen as more of a warrior-princess, tracker, hunter, rather than the elegant noble Elven Princess that Tolkien wished her to be - Undómiel the Evenstar of her people. To have her be able to stealthily creep up, in the wilds of the Trollshaws, and put sword to the neck of Aragorn “the greatest traveler and huntsman in this age of the world” is an insult to this reader and an affront to the very persona of Arwen, and in no way justifies the abandonment of Glorfindel – IMHO. Much more could be said and has been, perhaps ad nauseam, so . . . back to our travels and. . . [personal interlude off].)
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Mar 9 2015, 6:57pm
Post #29 of 29
(974 views)
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Thanks for the perspicacity of your comments Sador..
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Just a couple notes…
Was it “chance” or was I “just meant have” this chapter?
Didn't you ask for it?
That was a little play-on-words. Yes, I did ask for it, but it being the last chapter of Book 1 I thought it would give me a good chance of observing what the devil a chapter leader was all about. (Also it was in rough reference to the Arwen/Glorfindel incongruity mentioned below.)
There have been many defenses as to why PJ discarded Glorfindel. I personally accept none of them.
So don't.
As for me, Glorfindel was never my favourite elf. I find him good, powerful, generous... in short, bland to the point of being completely uninteresting.
Perhaps like many think of Bombadil: you find him uninteresting simply because you don’t know him well enough? There are MANY characters In LOTR that are not fleshed out, of necessity. I’m sure that Glorfindel is few peoples favorite Elf although his part WAS very important (if short), and as I have already said I find no reason to remove him completely from the movie and substitute Arwen so completely out-of-character. (Better would have been to allow Arwen be Arwen, and Glorfindel be Glorfindel. The meeting on the East Road between Aragorn and Glorfindel COULD have been glorious!) IMO
Also, I actually never thought about the connection (or non-connection movie-wise) between Arwen and Glorfindel when I volunteered. This jumped at me as I was reading paragraph by paragraph in attempt to fake some intelligent questions. 
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