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The Grey Elf
Grey Havens
Mar 3 2015, 3:28am
Post #1 of 18
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Downton Abbey: Shall We Go Through to the Ante-Library?
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Now that Season 5 has concluded, it's high time to do some discussing and gossip on all things Abbey. Below are various talking points to get us started as well as some of my impressions. No need to wait for a scented invitation, all DA fans join in!
What's the take on possible new hubby for Mary, Henry "Tall Butt?" (Sorry, but to my ears, the British pronounciation of Talbot sounds like it's being said sarcastically.) He's quite the cool drink of water and I love that he's not falling all over Mary with instant infatuation like most men. It's got to be significant that he's into cars, since they were the, er, vehicle by which Matthew met his death. How will that factor into a potential romance?
Not too pleased with Mary this season. She was just relentlessly mean to Edith among other poor choices. I mean, why would she give her cervical cap to Anna to keep rather than have her throw it away? Didn't she learn her lesson from that unfortunate Liverpool tryst? I feel like her character regressed to the fickle self she was in Season 1. I know she's a polarizing character but I've always liked her, esp. with Matthew. Not so much this year.
Favorite plot? Probably Violet's. This may have been Dame Maggie's best year as far as story. I loved all we learned about her younger self. And she seemed a warmer person this season. Very close second was the below the radar courtship of Carson and Mrs. Hughes. Was his proposal the sweetest thing ever?
Least favorite? Mr. Green. Julian Fellowes' continued dedication to push a story to it's frayed limits is nearly ludicrous. It's insulting not just to these beloved characters but to us, his loyal viewers.
What exactly is the social definition of "chumming" at a grouse shoot? Is a lady obliged to tag along and make awkward small talk because all sportsmen like to be so distracted when they're taking a bead on an angry bird?
Also: must all butlers be snobs? We've got Stowell, the Mean Snob, Spratt, the Buffoonish Snob, and dear old Carson, the Cuddly Snob.
I will not be sorry to see Tom leave. He's had nothing to do for forever beyond looking pained and awkward. I do like him but he stopped being interesting and started being one-note. Another instance of JF running out of ideas methinks.
Love what a super amiable drunk Robert is. I think he should over-imbibe all the time.
When were you most tempted to throw something at the telly? When Anna was lead away in handcuffs? (Perhaps those two should legally change their surname to Mr. and Mrs. Jail Bates.) Or when a perfectly healthy looking Isis suddenly came down with doggie cancer? (Hey, JF, you're letting the terrorists win!)
Will you watch the next, possibly last, season? The contrivances, deux ex machina and repetitive storylines are really trying my patience but I am now attached to the characters and the fine performances of all the actors. So I plan on sticking around though it's sad when a once sublime series appears to be running out of steam.
"If not us, who? If not now, when?" HeforShe
(This post was edited by The Grey Elf on Mar 3 2015, 3:32am)
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dormouse
Half-elven
Mar 3 2015, 8:47am
Post #2 of 18
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Possible new hubby for Mary? We've been through so many "is this the one" moments that I'm starting to cherish the hope that she will see the error of her ways and marry Tom when he comes back from America feeling disillusioned and wanting to return Sybbie to her loving family... That will tie up their storylines rather neatly, I'm thinking.
Favourite plot - definitely Violet for me, but then it usually is. Granny has a PAST!  I also enjoyed the way her storyline interlaced with Isobel's, and the way the two have become friends.
Least favourite. I agree that Mr Green has gone on too long, and the 'which Bates are they going to arrest this week' became like a roundabout you can't get off. But in the least favourite stakes it's running neck-and-neck for me with Spratt and the the maid, both of whom I could cheerfully do without (and I'm sure Violet could as well!)
Butlers usually do seem to have been snobs, as do a lot of servants at that time. Preserving the heirarchy was part of the mindset because it meant that everyone knew where they belonged - though in Downton there's a fair amount of caricature thrown in for good measure. After all, this is a toff's view of that world!
I'll watch for as long as it goes on - and actually I thought this series was better than the last. As I said in another thread, Downton for me is comfort viewing. Looks beautiful, interesting characters, good actors - and it's often at its best when it seems to be sending itself up.
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The Grey Elf
Grey Havens
Mar 3 2015, 11:21am
Post #3 of 18
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Ditto on 'shipping the bond that's formed between Violet and Isobel :-)
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And I don't mind Spratt because he tends to elicit such priceless reactions from the Dowager. (Who am I kidding? Everything Granny does is priceless.)
"If not us, who? If not now, when?" HeforShe
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The Grey Elf
Grey Havens
Mar 3 2015, 11:29am
Post #4 of 18
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the dorkyish agent for Brancaster Castle. Obviously positioned as a love interest for Poor Edith but given that Tom, Downton's agent, will need to be replaced when he departs for America, what are the odds that he may somehow find himself applying for the job? That will put him in partnership with Mary, who we can all expect will savage him for being a dork and not being Tom, and create yet another source of friction between the sisters.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Mar 3 2015, 1:21pm
Post #5 of 18
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Good one!
I think the Bates need to have fewer crises and more normal problems, like the sink clogged up or Anna loses her favorite handkerchief. The relentless victimization of the couple got boring a long time ago, though I do like the characters.
I would never say I liked Mary, or disliked her either. She and Edith used to be equally mean to each other, but now it seems one-sided. But for some inexplicable reason, I found Mary picking on Edith to be entertaining this season, maybe because it shows Mary as flawed--the real girl came out. I would also expect her to act more imperiously given that ego, so I enjoyed that coming out too when the police came to arrest Anna, and Mary arrogantly said she forbids it, and when the cop called her "Miss," she again arrogantly said,"I'm Lady Mary Crawley." This is what I'd expect from snobby, pretty aristocrats, so while unsavory, it seemed more real than Cora, who's always super-nice and never seems to pull rank.
Tony Gillingham was probably too nice and straightforward for Mary. She needs another aloof, hard-to-get-me person to be her suitor so she can get more involved in the give & take. I think the new guy will work out. I hope they don't stretch it out over 2 seasons, however.
I liked Tom Branson, but you're right, he didn't have much of a story line. He was great as the Rebel Chauffeur, but he's gone pretty dull as the widower estate agent.
I thought season/series 4 wasn't that strong, but #5 was, so I'm looking forward to #6. But the show can't go on forever, and with Maggie Smith leaving after #6, I have trouble seeing it keeping its charm.
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Annael
Immortal
Mar 3 2015, 3:20pm
Post #6 of 18
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I've shared my thoughts in the thread lower on the page. //
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People with soul can identify with another person's basic human struggle without either judgment or indifference.
-- Thomas Moore
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NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
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dormouse
Half-elven
Mar 3 2015, 3:40pm
Post #7 of 18
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Yes.... the trouble with poor Edith and her loves....
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... is that I suspect they have her marked down as Poor Edith, and even if a carrot is happiness is dangled before her eyes they'll find a way to snatch it away again. She is doomed to be the Poor one...
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Annael
Immortal
Mar 3 2015, 4:15pm
Post #8 of 18
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well, since the admins seem to be allowing this double thread
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Matthew expected Mary to be nice, and she lived up to his expectations. Now that he's gone her real self is on display again. Tom likes her, so she's nice to Tom.
(Much as I dislike Mary, I have to say, as the "perfect" older daughter in my own family, I went through quite a phase of being impatient with my sister, the middle child, over her "everything is about ME" over-emotional reactions to everything - especially any time I was getting attention. And she never missed a chance to cut me down. What she didn't realize is that my "perfect" veneer was just that, and what she said hurt me terribly - because I wouldn't let her have that "victory." So maybe my impatience with Mary is actually regret for my own part in perpetuating the situation? My sister and I are friends NOW, but it took a very, very long time, and there are still areas of thin ice we tread most carefully around.)
I have to admit they get Mary's psychology right. She's determined to reject her American heritage, which I think she is secretly ashamed of, to the point of telling her own mother "you're American so you wouldn't understand." As a result she identifies most strongly with her grandmother and tries to be like her in every way. She wouldn't even ride astride in the point-to-point because Granny wouldn't like it. When the Earl dies and Mary's son becomes the new Earl, she'll step immediately into the role of Dowager and be just like her grandmother all over again - and more and more of an anachronism as time goes by.
People with soul can identify with another person's basic human struggle without either judgment or indifference.
-- Thomas Moore
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NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
(This post was edited by Annael on Mar 3 2015, 4:15pm)
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The Grey Elf
Grey Havens
Mar 3 2015, 4:38pm
Post #9 of 18
(946 views)
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I thought it was quite revealing the look of surprise on Mary's face when Edith reached out to take her hand as they and Tom stood in the nursery. I think your analysis of the competitive nature of Mary and Edith's relationship is insightful but I also think at play perhaps is her feeling atypically inadequate because of the whole gnarly entail situation. She's a mere female in the eyes of tradition and law. And I'm not quite sure she's interested in emulating her grandmother in every way as she consented to the week with Tony in Liverpool before she learned of Violet's past, a choice the dowager most thoroughly chastised her for (which did not surprise Mary at all).
"If not us, who? If not now, when?" HeforShe
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Mar 3 2015, 5:15pm
Post #10 of 18
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I accidentally tuned in one night
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... looking for one of the charming British mysteries I'd stumbled over the week before..
and said, "oh, this must be that Downton Abbey thing..."
 ... ...  ....  ...  ............
nicely done... somehow a bunch of wealthy aristocrats running around an impossibly huge mansion and doing impossibly rich people things was interesting, even though I had zero idea who any of these people were...
Now that's good storytellin, if you can get my attention with something that I have like zero interest in, or zero ability to relate to.
I doubt I can actually devote time to following it, but I see why it has a following!
Also, crazy ladies in riding habits jumping hugebleepin horses over hugebleepin jumps... sidesaddle.
..with no helmets. Or body armour (they sell that in tack shops around here, yesh, body armour).
Na 'Aear, na 'Aear! Mżl 'lain nallol, I sūl ribiel a i falf 'loss reviol...
To the sea, to the sea, the white gulls are crying, the wind is blowing and the white foam is flying...
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zarabia
Tol Eressea
Mar 4 2015, 1:19am
Post #11 of 18
(915 views)
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Yes, the contrivances, deux ex machina, and repetitive storylines are annoying, but they've been a problem throughout the run of the series, not just the last season or two. There's also been a problem with plot points that go nowhere and characters that pop up and quickly disappear willy-nilly. There have been un-fired Chekhov's guns all over the place. 
However, I still love watching...usually. My favorite seasons have been the first, third, and this season. Season two was good, but as a fan of Isobelle's, I was put off by how they turned her into a ridiculous, interfering busy body. I was so glad when they gave her back her good sense and dignity.
Which leads to one of my favorite story lines from this season: the deepening friendship between Isobelle and Violet. Yes, Violets' s zingers are often funny, but she's been a little two dimensional in the past. Her reaction to Syble's death and her graciousness during William's funeral were touching and well done,but there wasn't much to really flesh her out until this season. It was fun to know that Violet had a steamy past  , but it was her growing and deepening relationship with Isobelle that finally really humanized her. At least for me.
I completely agree about Anna and Bates. Gah! And Mrs. Hughes and Mr. Carson. Yay! I've been a fan of Mrs. Hughes since the beginning and Carson is growing on me.
About Isis, it passed my mind that it was political, but I don't believe it. Her death served three purposes. 1) It marks the passage of time. Isis was an adult dog in season one which was 1914, so she would be at least eleven years old, a fairly respectable age back then. 2) It brought Cora and Robert back together after a rough patch. 3) It brought a nice, if a bit contrived, close to the problem of Mrs. Patmore's nephew not having a proper tribute: it was when Robert was looking through samples for a headstone for Isis that he got the idea for a plaque for the nephew.
As for Tom, I still like him and think he serves a purpose. He challenges Mary and Robert while humanizing them in the process. Plus, and I'm probably crazy, I think it looks like they may be setting things up for a love triangle between him, Mary, and Edith. I know they introduced possible love interests for Mary and Edith, but they both seem to have deeper feelings for Tom beyond sisterly love. So maybe it will be a love pentagon.
Yes, Mary's back to form. But it's fun to watch, and she can be decent on occasion. Her loyalty to Anna, no matter the possible embarrassment, is touching. And I loved the moment when Edith took her hand in the nursery, the look on her face was so moving.
Edith is back to being a bit of a sad sack, but I like her. She can be a bit self-pitying, but often she is justified. But usually she ends up taking action. It was cruel the way she took the baby back from the farmer's wife, but it's also understandable. She thought she could be happy spending an hour here and there with her child. But after wearing out her welcome, knowing how close she was and also knowing she was denied the right to see her daughter was unbearable. Anyway, Edith, pitiful as she can be sometimes, is usually proactive. She makes her self useful to others outside the family.
Anyway, I've burbled on enough. Suffice it to say, I will watch again next season.
You realize that life goes fast
It's hard to make the good things last
You realize the sun doesn't go down
It's just an illusion caused by the world spinning 'round
~Do You Realize?, The Flaming Lips
(This post was edited by zarabia on Mar 4 2015, 1:24am)
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Kim
Valinor
Mar 4 2015, 2:13am
Post #12 of 18
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No, we'll have tea in the Library, thank you
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I think one of my favorite parts of this season is Violet and Isobel's friendship, and Violet finally admitting that the reason why she didn't want Isobel to marry was because she would miss her friend.
Mary seems to be stuck in her imperious ways while Edith has actually grown up and changed over the years. I too find Mary's snide comments towards Edith too much, and wish she would listen to Violet's advice about lack of compassion.
I will continue to watch as I just can't stay away - there's a lot of good and bad mixed together.
P.S. Just what the heck is an Ante-Library anyways?
#OneLastTime
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The Grey Elf
Grey Havens
Mar 4 2015, 3:02am
Post #13 of 18
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Wow. A Mary/Tom/Edith triangle!
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I gotta say, that's never occurred to me. The way I see it, Tom is a brother to them and offers a different type of male relationship for two women who are forced to see all eligible men as potential mates. It kind of takes the pressure off of them which I would think would be a unique and precious thing. Tom's smart, supportive and is not judgmental. The perfect bro!
Besides, he's their dead little sister's husband. Wouldn't a romance with him be kinda icky?
"If not us, who? If not now, when?" HeforShe
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The Grey Elf
Grey Havens
Mar 4 2015, 3:12am
Post #14 of 18
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Ante-library? No idea, but it kind of tickles me that such an obscure place
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Exists in a castle.
And didn't you love the V/I moment when the DC actually laughed at something Isobel said? (I wonder if Iz was trying to sound clever?)
"If not us, who? If not now, when?" HeforShe
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zarabia
Tol Eressea
Mar 4 2015, 5:46am
Post #15 of 18
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Ickier things have happened :D
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I'm probably reading too much into the wistful looks of Mary and Edith when Tom mentions leaving. But their expressions seem to say more than, "Golly, I'm sure going to miss my brother-in-law." I know it's the end of an era and all, but...
Remember, Mary and Matthew were cousins, not terribly close cousins, but cousins none the less. And the marriage of even closer cousins was permitted at that time.  At least they aren't blood kin.
As I said, I'm probably seeing something that's not there. But, boy, the fur would really fly if Mary and Edith were both interested in Tom. Goodness knows Julien Fellowes isn't above creating that kind of melodrama.
It would be nice to think they could just have a nice, platonic relationship though. I hope you're right.
You realize that life goes fast
It's hard to make the good things last
You realize the sun doesn't go down
It's just an illusion caused by the world spinning 'round
~Do You Realize?, The Flaming Lips
(This post was edited by zarabia on Mar 4 2015, 5:49am)
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Annael
Immortal
Mar 4 2015, 4:17pm
Post #16 of 18
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*puts hands over ears, runs away humming loudly*
*Steps back in to say "Mary may like Tom but she's too much of a snob to fall for the former chauffeur." *
People with soul can identify with another person's basic human struggle without either judgment or indifference.
-- Thomas Moore
* * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
(This post was edited by Annael on Mar 4 2015, 4:18pm)
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Patty
Immortal
Mar 6 2015, 2:00am
Post #17 of 18
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Mary and Edith have come to love Tom. But not in "that" way.
Permanent address: Into the West
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zarabia
Tol Eressea
Mar 6 2015, 7:52am
Post #18 of 18
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I'm not saying that's what I want to happen
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It just looks like Fellowes is heading that way even if it's just a misdirect. Maybe he just wispered in the actresses ears to look inexplicably misty whenever Tom talks about leaving just to stir up speculation.
It could be chalked up to sentimentality in Edith's case, but Mary is not sentimental...except on Christmas in the nursery.
You realize that life goes fast
It's hard to make the good things last
You realize the sun doesn't go down
It's just an illusion caused by the world spinning 'round
~Do You Realize?, The Flaming Lips
(This post was edited by zarabia on Mar 6 2015, 7:54am)
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