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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
It was Kili's own fault ! (Or not...?)
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marary
Lorien

Mar 4 2015, 8:08am

Post #26 of 42 (1667 views)
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So what was Fili thinking? [In reply to] Can't Post


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I don't think so. Audible evidence is perfectly reasonable evidence. I think Thorin and Dwalin would have taken audible evidence and their "gut feelings" as perfectly good evidence. It's not like both of them wouldn't have done similar things on multiple occasions. In fact we see Thorin do it a couple times in the films. Nothing obvious but he hears something or has a feeing and knows something is up.


Yes. Given Thorin's very clear instructions to stay out of sight and not engage, I doubt he would have berated the brothers for not finding out enough.

Kili's immediate reaction in the tunnel was to charge into battle all trigger-happy, so Fili stops him and sends him away. That makes loads of sense for the big brother character. But why did Fili feel the need to press on? There could be a really logical reason, but what was he thinking? Fili, you needn't have died! Argh.


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But what else did Kili have those other times that he didn't at Ravenhill? His protector. And I'm not talking about Tauriel.


Actually, I think Tauriel does a better job protecting Kili throughout the films* than Fili. Fili shows a tremendous amount of brotherly concern. He's not bad as far as protecting Kili goes: he takes out an orc for Kili at bridge in Mirkwood, and he at least tries to get Kili out of danger on Ravenhill, but Tauriel, frankly, saves Kili on more occasions. She saves him from a spider (while Fili just shouts "Kili! from afar). She saves him from an orc (a few times!), she saves him from a possibly-dark-magic-infected-wound, and she leads him and the rest of the dwarves away from Smaug's attack. Tauriel saves Kili when Fili is either not there (spiders) or incapable of really helping (morgul wound).

*I'd have to watch the trilogy again and do a tally to be sure.

Kili might be the films' biggest damsel in distress, and Tauriel, not Fili, is his knight in shining armor. Ravenhill is really kind of a fluke if you add up all the times Tauriel saves Kili.


(This post was edited by marary on Mar 4 2015, 8:09am)


Riven Delve
Tol Eressea


Mar 4 2015, 11:19am

Post #27 of 42 (1653 views)
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Ravenhill is Trollshaws all over again [In reply to] Can't Post

but without the team of Dwarves, or a Hobbit and a wizard coming to the rescue. Unsure

  • "Hey! There's a light!" (Fili runs toward it)
  • "Shouldn't we tell Thorin?" "Uhr, let's not worry him."
  • Did someone forget to hoot twice like a barn owl and once like a brown owl?
  • "Drop him!" Shocked Pirate



“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”



Never_Underestimate_A_Dwarf
Rivendell

Mar 4 2015, 12:35pm

Post #28 of 42 (1645 views)
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Noooo [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
but without the team of Dwarves, or a Hobbit and a wizard coming to the rescue. Unsure

  • "Hey! There's a light!" (Fili runs toward it)
  • "Shouldn't we tell Thorin?" "Uhr, let's not worry him."
  • Did someone forget to hoot twice like a barn owl and once like a brown owl?
  • "Drop him!" Shocked Pirate


This made me both laugh and cry Frown


lionoferebor
Rohan

Mar 4 2015, 2:21pm

Post #29 of 42 (1627 views)
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The process of elimination [In reply to] Can't Post

 


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But what else did Kili have those other times that he didn't at Ravenhill? His protector. And I'm not talking about Tauriel.



Quote
Actually, I think Tauriel does a better job protecting Kili throughout the films* than Fili. Fili shows a tremendous amount of brotherly concern. He's not bad as far as protecting Kili goes: he takes out an orc for Kili at bridge in Mirkwood, and he at least tries to get Kili out of danger on Ravenhill, but Tauriel, frankly, saves Kili on more occasions. She saves him from a spider (while Fili just shouts "Kili! from afar). She saves him from an orc (a few times!), she saves him from a possibly-dark-magic-infected-wound, and she leads him and the rest of the dwarves away from Smaug's attack. Tauriel saves Kili when Fili is either not there (spiders) or incapable of really helping (morgul wound).

*I'd have to watch the trilogy again and do a tally to be sure.

Kili might be the films' biggest damsel in distress, and Tauriel, not Fili, is his knight in shining armor. Ravenhill is really kind of a fluke if you add up all the times Tauriel saves Kili.


Actually, Fili does save Kili from a spider. Before the elves arrive and the Dwarves are in the heat of the fight a spider grabs Kili. It's Fili who strikes the spider from behind causing it to release Kili. Also, when the Company is ambushed on the "front porch" of goblin town in AUJ there is a brief moment where you can see Thorin, Fili, and Kili pushed back in a corner. Thorin and Fili are standing in front of Kili trying to keep the goblin's away. Yes, ultimately they were captured - that was inevitable - but the point is Fili (and Thorin) tried to protect Kili with their bodies in that moment. And of course - as previously mentioned - Fili saves Kili from an Orc at the Mirkwood bridge. (There are possibly other moments, but I would have to re-watch the movies to see).

So, it's not that Fili never saved his brother it's just all those moments happen in the background. They're not highlighted like the times Tauriel comes to his rescue. And each time she does save Kili, Fili is in a position where he is unable to help his brother. Had he not been surround by several elves with their arrows pointed at his head, had he not been stuck in a barrel without a weapon, had he had healing abilities I'm pretty sure Fili would've attempted to save Kili in all those moments. And really from what I can recollect Tauriel only saved Kili three times. First was the spider, second was at the Mirkwood bridge, and third was the "healing scene". (I don't count the orcs at Bard's house because unlike the previous examples given where she saves Kili alone, in that case she saves several of them).

So, really it's not that Tauriel is betterat saving Kili, it's that in one way or another Fili has been eliminated from the situation giving her the opportunity to jump in.

Last, I don't recall Tauriel leading Kili and the others out of Lake-town. I do recall her helping Tilda with her coat and telling Bain they have to leave. I recall Tauriel getting into the boat, while Bofur and Fili helped everyone else in. I recall it was Fili who noticed Kili was not in the boat and called for him to get in, not Tauriel. I recall Tauriel simply stood in the boat, while Fili and Bofur steered and navigated their way through the chaos. I recall when the boat collides with the Master's barge she doesn't check to see that everyone is okay and still on board. I recall when Bain jumps out of the boat it's the Fili and Bofur who try to stop him. Tauriel makes no attempt to stop him, she just let's him go. She'll save an adult Dwarf from a spider, but she won't attempt to stop a child from going into a fiery inferno? At least Fili and Bofur tried to stop him. It seems to me Fili and Bofur did more leading than Tauriel.


marary
Lorien

Mar 4 2015, 5:44pm

Post #30 of 42 (1599 views)
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If you're as big a damsel-in-distress as Kili, you need *both* Kili and Tauriel to save your hide! [In reply to] Can't Post


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So, it's not that Fili never saved his brother it's just all those moments happen in the background. They're not highlighted like the times Tauriel comes to his rescue.


He does save him plenty of times (and you're right, lots of beautiful in-the-background moments), and Fili is quite an awesome big brother all around. Best moment in Desolation? Fili choosing to defy Thorin and stay behind with Kili. But he also fails to save Kili on several occasions when Kili would be dead meat were it not for Tauriel.

As for Lake-town, leaving Bain behind is definitely debatable. On one hand, save the child. On the other hand, he runs off on his own will, and Tauriel has taken charge of two other children while a fiery inferno rains down on Lake-town... Ever second in Lake-town puts the girls in danger. Difficult choice, but moral calculus points to keep going in the boat and save the two girls (and four dwarves). Also note that while Fili and Bofur try to stop Bain and Tauriel says they cannot turn back, no one argues with her either.


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It's that in one way or another Fili has been eliminated from the situation giving her the opportunity to jump in.


Exactly. And thankfully, Damsel!Kili has another protector who succeeds in almost every instance, save for one.

Now I'd love to see a DamselKili montage. I bet its hilarious. (That is, until it's extremely sad.)


Never_Underestimate_A_Dwarf
Rivendell

Mar 4 2015, 8:08pm

Post #31 of 42 (1582 views)
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THANK YOU [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Actually, Fili does save Kili from a spider. Before the elves arrive and the Dwarves are in the heat of the fight a spider grabs Kili. It's Fili who strikes the spider from behind causing it to release Kili. Also, when the Company is ambushed on the "front porch" of goblin town in AUJ there is a brief moment where you can see Thorin, Fili, and Kili pushed back in a corner. Thorin and Fili are standing in front of Kili trying to keep the goblin's away. Yes, ultimately they were captured - that was inevitable - but the point is Fili (and Thorin) tried to protect Kili with their bodies in that moment. And of course - as previously mentioned - Fili saves Kili from an Orc at the Mirkwood bridge. (There are possibly other moments, but I would have to re-watch the movies to see).


So, it's not that Fili never saved his brother it's just all those moments happen in the background. They're not highlighted like the times Tauriel comes to his rescue. And each time she does save Kili, Fili is in a position where he is unable to help his brother. Had he not been surround by several elves with their arrows pointed at his head, had he not been stuck in a barrel without a weapon, had he had healing abilities I'm pretty sure Fili would've attempted to save Kili in all those moments. And really from what I can recollect Tauriel only saved Kili three times. First was the spider, second was at the Mirkwood bridge, and third was the "healing scene". (I don't count the orcs at Bard's house because unlike the previous examples given where she saves Kili alone, in that case she saves several of them).

So, really it's not that Tauriel is betterat saving Kili, it's that in one way or another Fili has been eliminated from the situation giving her the opportunity to jump in.

Last, I don't recall Tauriel leading Kili and the others out of Lake-town. I do recall her helping Tilda with her coat and telling Bain they have to leave. I recall Tauriel getting into the boat, while Bofur and Fili helped everyone else in. I recall it was Fili who noticed Kili was not in the boat and called for him to get in, not Tauriel. I recall Tauriel simply stood in the boat, while Fili and Bofur steered and navigated their way through the chaos. I recall when the boat collides with the Master's barge she doesn't check to see that everyone is okay and still on board. I recall when Bain jumps out of the boat it's the Fili and Bofur who try to stop him. Tauriel makes no attempt to stop him, she just let's him go. She'll save an adult Dwarf from a spider, but she won't attempt to stop a child from going into a fiery inferno? At least Fili and Bofur tried to stop him. It seems to me Fili and Bofur did more leading than Tauriel.


Quote

There are these examples and lots of blink-and-you'll-miss-it moments. Also, the stone giants (tries to grab him when the mountain splits) and I recall seeing a battle scene not used in BotFA where they are fighting together and Fili is blocking Kili - maybe it'll be in the extended edition, who knows.
Fili even stays behind in Laketown to take care of his brother!

He kept Kili out of those tunnels to save him - it was intentional, not a mistake.

Fili doesn't get enough credit for all he did.


CathrineB
Rohan


Mar 4 2015, 9:38pm

Post #32 of 42 (1576 views)
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Thank you x 2 [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To

Actually, Fili does save Kili from a spider. Before the elves arrive and the Dwarves are in the heat of the fight a spider grabs Kili. It's Fili who strikes the spider from behind causing it to release Kili. Also, when the Company is ambushed on the "front porch" of goblin town in AUJ there is a brief moment where you can see Thorin, Fili, and Kili pushed back in a corner. Thorin and Fili are standing in front of Kili trying to keep the goblin's away. Yes, ultimately they were captured - that was inevitable - but the point is Fili (and Thorin) tried to protect Kili with their bodies in that moment. And of course - as previously mentioned - Fili saves Kili from an Orc at the Mirkwood bridge. (There are possibly other moments, but I would have to re-watch the movies to see).


So, it's not that Fili never saved his brother it's just all those moments happen in the background. They're not highlighted like the times Tauriel comes to his rescue. And each time she does save Kili, Fili is in a position where he is unable to help his brother. Had he not been surround by several elves with their arrows pointed at his head, had he not been stuck in a barrel without a weapon, had he had healing abilities I'm pretty sure Fili would've attempted to save Kili in all those moments. And really from what I can recollect Tauriel only saved Kili three times. First was the spider, second was at the Mirkwood bridge, and third was the "healing scene". (I don't count the orcs at Bard's house because unlike the previous examples given where she saves Kili alone, in that case she saves several of them).

So, really it's not that Tauriel is betterat saving Kili, it's that in one way or another Fili has been eliminated from the situation giving her the opportunity to jump in.

Last, I don't recall Tauriel leading Kili and the others out of Lake-town. I do recall her helping Tilda with her coat and telling Bain they have to leave. I recall Tauriel getting into the boat, while Bofur and Fili helped everyone else in. I recall it was Fili who noticed Kili was not in the boat and called for him to get in, not Tauriel. I recall Tauriel simply stood in the boat, while Fili and Bofur steered and navigated their way through the chaos. I recall when the boat collides with the Master's barge she doesn't check to see that everyone is okay and still on board. I recall when Bain jumps out of the boat it's the Fili and Bofur who try to stop him. Tauriel makes no attempt to stop him, she just let's him go. She'll save an adult Dwarf from a spider, but she won't attempt to stop a child from going into a fiery inferno? At least Fili and Bofur tried to stop him. It seems to me Fili and Bofur did more leading than Tauriel.


Quote

There are these examples and lots of blink-and-you'll-miss-it moments. Also, the stone giants (tries to grab him when the mountain splits) and I recall seeing a battle scene not used in BotFA where they are fighting together and Fili is blocking Kili - maybe it'll be in the extended edition, who knows.
Fili even stays behind in Laketown to take care of his brother!

He kept Kili out of those tunnels to save him - it was intentional, not a mistake.

Fili doesn't get enough credit for all he did.


Thank you!

Just because he doesn't have the ability or opportunity to save him doesn't make him less of a protector. I didn't post that comment to look down at Tauriel - she does indeed save Kili when Fili can't, but it irks me when it came across as if Fili wasn't a protector.

So yes, in the end Kili doesn't have Fili at Ravenhill to protect him and also Tauriel fails him there. Especially with the shouting which distracts him from the fighting.


EomundDaughter
Lorien

Mar 4 2015, 11:18pm

Post #33 of 42 (1554 views)
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WOW...that was very good ! [In reply to] Can't Post

just don't let Killis mother know what happened !


lionoferebor
Rohan

Mar 4 2015, 11:54pm

Post #34 of 42 (1544 views)
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YOU'RE WELCOME [In reply to] Can't Post

and you are right, Fili doesn't get enough credit.


lionoferebor
Rohan

Mar 4 2015, 11:56pm

Post #35 of 42 (1539 views)
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You're welcome x2 [In reply to] Can't Post

and it irks me also.


Never_Underestimate_A_Dwarf
Rivendell

Mar 5 2015, 12:13am

Post #36 of 42 (1539 views)
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And Fili does more than just protect Kili [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

Thank you!

Just because he doesn't have the ability or opportunity to save him doesn't make him less of a protector. I didn't post that comment to look down at Tauriel - she does indeed save Kili when Fili can't, but it irks me when it came across as if Fili wasn't a protector.

So yes, in the end Kili doesn't have Fili at Ravenhill to protect him and also Tauriel fails him there. Especially with the shouting which distracts him from the fighting.


At the risk of turning this into a Fili appreciation thread, I also wanted to point out that Fili:

Warned Bard to flee with his family. Then went on to defend and take care of the kids during the Orc attack and on the boat. Also led Kili, Oin, and Bofur safely to Erebor,

Prevented Thorin from throwing Bilbo over the wall.

Is apparently the only one who cared about Kili's wound and bandaged him up.

Repeatedly showed concern for Thorin, came to his defense, and looked pretty torn up when the dragon sickness struck his uncle (I wish they would have elaborated on that more).

Had several background moments where he assisted the other dwarves (a couple of instances where he helped Bombur up come to mind)

Tried to aid the Iron Hills army in battle ("I'm going over the wall, who's with me?")

And let's not forget his last words.

So, in summary, Fili protects EVERYONE.


Riven Delve
Tol Eressea


Mar 5 2015, 12:34am

Post #37 of 42 (1528 views)
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Well put! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
So, in summary, Fili protects EVERYONE.





Which is what kings do, after all. So sad he missed his chance--he would have been a good one.


“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”



lionoferebor
Rohan

Mar 5 2015, 1:29am

Post #38 of 42 (1519 views)
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failure vs disadvantage [In reply to] Can't Post


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He does save him plenty of times (and you're right, lots of beautiful in-the-background moments), and Fili is quite an awesome big brother all around. Best moment in Desolation? Fili choosing to defy Thorin and stay behind with Kili. But he also fails to save Kili on several occasions when Kili would be dead meat were it not for Tauriel.


I don't think it's fair to say he failed. Now there were a few times where he was at a disadvantage (arrows pointed at head, stuck in a barrel, not gifted with healing abilities) and he was physically unable to help Kili, but that doesn't mean he failed. Had he been able to help Kili in those moments and he either (a) chose not to help Kili (which I highly doubt he would do) or (b) attempted to help Kili but was still unable to save him (as Tauriel does at Ravenhill)...then I would say he failed.

And yes, had it not been for Tauriel in those moments "damsel-in-distress" Kili (why did they do to him?) probably would've been dead long before DOS was over. But had Fili been in a position where he was physically able to help Kili I'm sure he would've saved his brother in those moments too.


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As for Lake-town, leaving Bain behind is definitely debatable. On one hand, save the child. On the other hand, he runs off on his own will, and Tauriel has taken charge of two other children while a fiery inferno rains down on Lake-town... Ever second in Lake-town puts the girls in danger. Difficult choice, but moral calculus points to keep going in the boat and save the two girls (and four dwarves). Also note that while Fili and Bofur try to stop Bain and Tauriel says they cannot turn back, no one argues with her either.


Okay, so Fili and Bofur don't argue with her to go after Bain, but at least they try to stop him and that still counts for something. Had things gone differently and Bain was severely injured or worse at least Fili and Bofur could say to Bard "we tried to stop him." No one else could say that.

As for Tauriel, she could've gone after Bain and was really the only one in a position to do so. Fili and Bofur are steering the boat, Kili is just getting over his injury, Oin is looking after Kili, and Sigrid and Tilda are too young. Also, had she opted to go after Bain I'm pretty sure the four adult Dwarves could've looked after the girls and brought them to safety.


Ilmatar
Rohan


Mar 5 2015, 11:41pm

Post #39 of 42 (1437 views)
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True [In reply to] Can't Post


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At the risk of turning this into a Fili appreciation thread,




Yes, he did. Unsure



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So, in summary, Fili protects EVERYONE.


(source in DeviantArt)


Cirashala
Valinor


Mar 7 2015, 10:21pm

Post #40 of 42 (1374 views)
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Mods up! [In reply to] Can't Post

I had that same thought while watching the films "Tauriel, you're supposed to be a warrior, not an idiot. Shut up!" Crazy



Milieuterrien
Rohan

Mar 15 2015, 10:16pm

Post #41 of 42 (1317 views)
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On the contrary [In reply to] Can't Post

Tauriel yelled at Kili because she understood he was getting into a suicidal figthing move and she wanted to stop him doing so.


marillaraina
Rohan


Mar 16 2015, 2:00am

Post #42 of 42 (1303 views)
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subject [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Tauriel yelled at Kili because she understood he was getting into a suicidal figthing move and she wanted to stop him doing so.


How could she? She didn't know anything about what happened. And in fact Kili was fighting very well prior to her arrival. He was killing orcs left and right, he wasn't really have any trouble(though I'm sure that would have changed if he'd come up with some toucher orcs but as it was, he was going through them with no problem)

Now I don't think it was her or his fault he died. Bolg was simply an opponent who was too strong for both of them. While I do agree it doesn't make sense that she'd call his name out loud like that, rather than just getting to higher ground and seeing if she could see him first, I don't think it's actually meant to be seen as her calling him attracted attention. I think it's meant to be seen as Bolg was already coming that way and it just happened to be at that time. It's not wrong for people on the same side of a fight to either ask for assistance or offer assistance and it's not one or the other's "fault" if one of them dies in the process.

Bolg was simply too strong for them to defeat in the circumstances they found themselves. If they'd have more room, if they hadn't been on that relatively isolated ledge...what if what if but that's just not where the fight happened..

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