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Miss-Merriweather
Bree
Mar 2 2015, 2:15am
Post #1 of 42
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It was Kili's own fault ! (Or not...?)
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First of all: I like movie Kili. I really do.
Beard or no beard, and whatever that thing was with his trousers, he‘s sweet and adorable and just the perfect little brother.
So while I was trying to think of ways how he could have escaped his grim fate, a terrible, terrible suspicion dawned on me which is causing me many sleepless nights: Kili brought about his own doom!
You don’t believe me? Then let’s look back upon the events:
When we first meet Kili, he is a flawless fighter. He survives trolls, wargs, orcs, stone giants, goblins, giant spiders and extremely ill-behaved Wood-elves without so much as rumpling up his billowing mane.
In the dungeons of the woodland realm we learn that he is carrying a rune stone.
Let’s hear what Kili says about this stone:
„It is a talisman. A powerful spell lies upon it. ... A rune stone. My mother gave it to me so I’d remember my promise that I would come back to her.“
Now, we know that Kili likes to tell stories, or at least embellish them.
But he would never tell a lie. So, what if he was just repeating what his mum had told him in good earnest when giving him said stone?
What if that stone really had magical power?
Why is Kili the only prisoner who doesn't get searched, neither by Tauriel nor by anyone else?
Could it be that the stone is protecting itself so as not to be separated from its bearer?
Let’s see how the story develops:
Kili, rune stone in pocket (along with many other interesting items that we may never find out about) escapes the dungeons. He gets wounded during his reckless stunt at the river gate, but „only“ by an arrow to the knee. He survives the barrel ride and resists the arrow’s poison long enough for his skilful Elven friend to drop by and save him. And of course he survives both the Orcs‘ attack on Bard’s house and Smaug’s attack on Laketown without the slightest scratch nor scorch, respectively.
Then he gives his rune stone to Tauriel.
The next fight he engages in after that, the very next, he ends up dead.
Now what does that tell us...?
(This post was edited by Miss-Merriweather on Mar 2 2015, 2:20am)
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Lorien
Mar 2 2015, 6:44am
Post #2 of 42
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That once Kili had given away the runestone, he'd given up some protection. Either that runestone really did carry a charm, or it was some very subtle foreshadowing, of which I am a huge fan.
Note that Tauriel survives a pretty bad beating while carrying that runestone.
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Arannir
Valinor
Mar 2 2015, 8:24am
Post #3 of 42
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First of all it would have helped for them not running around Ravenhill screaming for each other.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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Lorien
Mar 2 2015, 11:18am
Post #4 of 42
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It makes zero sense for Tauriel to give away her position by screaming Kili's name. She totally could have come to Kili's aid in a more stealthy manner. Though she was already portrayed as not particularly logical when it comes to Kili--it just worked out better on past occasions! Though I can't judge her too harshly- Fili was also pretty foolish in sending away his backup (Kili) and pursuing the orcs in the tower even after knowing enough about their position to regroup with Thorin and Dwalin.
Anyway, whether there was some kind of charm involved in the runestone or not, it is near-perfect symbolism for the circumstances of Kili's death, and I really have to hand it to the filmmakers. He gives his mother's runestone to Tauriel as a symbol of their bond, which mirrors the fact that he forsakes his promise to his mother in saving Tauriel. You can read it both ways. I dig it.
While it was a controversial love story, I actually got behind Kili/Tauriel at the end of the day. While true to canon for Kili to die, it felt like an easy-out in the context of the movie. Their love gets to be epic and tragic, while had Kili lived, it would have to be a very hard-won relationship, even after the battle. They have quite a lot going against them apart from death. I doubt many dwarves would be supportive of an elf coming to live in Erebor, and if Thorin and Fili both still died, Kili would be the king, further complicating things. Not to mention the immortality issue, possibility of having children, etc...
(This post was edited by marary on Mar 2 2015, 11:27am)
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CathrineB
Rohan
Mar 2 2015, 1:08pm
Post #5 of 42
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It was the love story that killed the dwarf *sorry*  By that yes I agree that the whole shouting at each other was just way foolish. Kili was doing good until that started.
But what else did Kili have those other times that he didn't at Ravenhill? His protector. And I'm not talking about Tauriel.
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Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
Mar 2 2015, 2:30pm
Post #6 of 42
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because any but a Dwarf did read the runes (Tauriel--or at least she looked at them  )...and so the Dwarf was forever cursed! 
“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”
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lionoferebor
Rohan
Mar 2 2015, 3:04pm
Post #7 of 42
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It was the love story that killed the dwarf *sorry* By that yes I agree that the whole shouting at each other was just way foolish. Kili was doing good until that started. But what else did Kili have those other times that he didn't at Ravenhill? His protector. And I'm not talking about Tauriel.
I agree, a big difference in that moment is that Kili was without his protector.
I also agree that Tauriel should have been more stealthy rather than running around calling out Kili's name. At the same time though Kili should not have allowed himself to become so easily distracted. Throughout the trilogy Kili kept his focus in every fight he was engaged in, but at Ravenhill he lost his focus and thus made the most reckless decision since he started on the quest.
As for Fili, his mistake wasn't sending his brother away. Had he kept Kili at his side they both would have been on that ledge with Azog before Thorin. His mistake was trying to scout out the tunnel on his own. Obviously, had he done as Thorin had instructed that whole fiasco could have been avoided as well. But even then, Kili could had also responded differently in that moment. You can tell he is pondering whether or not to heed his brothers words...and I give him credit for that. Of course, as we know, he leaves without an argument. However, he could've said to Fili "no, we'll scout this out together" or - better yet - he could've suggest "why don't we report back to Thorin". Both Fili and Kili were present when Thorin gave his instructions. They both knew they should have reported back to him yet neither of them thought to do it.
But then had Thorin not sent them to scout out the tower none that would have happened. Better yet, had Thorin agreed to return Thranduil's jewels to him back when they were imprisoned in Mirkwood the dwarves could had walked away from Mirkwood and Kili may have avoided getting injured. That would have eliminated the whole healing scene and possibly the whole Kili/Tauriel "love story" and thus Tauriel would have ever shown up at Ravenhill screaming Kili's name and he would not have become distracted.
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Lorien
Mar 2 2015, 3:37pm
Post #8 of 42
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Think about it - Tauriel *is* forever cursed
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While not being a "he", she was after reading the stone! Her love is dead and she is banished. She should have listened to Kili's *first* story instead of all willy-nilly picking up enchanted dwarvish runestones and reading them. Silly elf.
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Adrianna
Lorien
Mar 2 2015, 3:40pm
Post #9 of 42
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do you think Kili's mother would feel like if she knew that her son had given away the very thing that was suppose to protect him to Tauriel and gotten killed because of it? Would she be with angry with Tauriel? Or would she open up her arms to Tauriel?
"I did free him. I freed his wretched head from his miserable shoulders."
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Lorien
Mar 2 2015, 4:01pm
Post #10 of 42
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I can't imagine that encounter going well.
I also agree that Tauriel should have been more stealthy rather than running around calling out Kili's name. At the same time though Kili should not have allowed himself to become so easily distracted. Throughout the trilogy Kili kept his focus in every fight he was engaged in, but at Ravenhill he lost his focus and thus made the most reckless decision since he started on the quest.
Or was he doomed the moment he charged into battle on his *own* after Fili died? A key thing to remember is that dwarves are practically a force of nature when fighting together. Every single fight up to this point has some serious combat teamwork going on between the dwarves because dwarves are literally the most awesome of brethren. (Seriously, I love dwarves.)
After Fili is killed, Thorin's attention immediately turns to finding and protecting Kili (he runs off shouting "Kili!"--sheesh, can people stop shouting each other's names, already? It's dangerous!). Obviously, Thorin knows Azog intends to execute Kili next. That's reason A. Reason B is that Thorin just *knows* that Kili was prompted into doing something incredibly stupid like taking on a bunch of orcs by himself to avenge his brother. Granted, he was doing pretty well until trying to defend Tauriel.
So the question is, which relationship is more the cause for his death: His relationship with Tauriel (who he tries to defend), or his relationship with his brother (who he tries to avenge)?
There might be something to this: when his objective is to avenge Fili, he's focused and formidable and when his objective is to defend Tauriel, he loses his ground. Probably reading into this way too much, but it's quite a lovely, if tragic, point for the Fili-Kili brotherly bond.
Thorin has no way of knowing if Kili still lives when Bilbo finds him, does he? That's pretty sad. :(
(This post was edited by marary on Mar 2 2015, 4:14pm)
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Adrianna
Lorien
Mar 2 2015, 5:12pm
Post #11 of 42
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There is a brief one moment delay before he actually stabs Kili. Tauriel could have gotten back to her feet but she just layed there looking at him. I was screaming on the inside to get up you can still save him but Nooo! She just layed there with tears in her eyes as to say I'm sorry I couldn't save you. Then he gets stabbed and it's like really are you kidding me. But such as is.
"I did free him. I freed his wretched head from his miserable shoulders."
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Mar 2 2015, 7:06pm
Post #12 of 42
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Na 'Aear, na 'Aear! Mýl 'lain nallol, I sűl ribiel a i falf 'loss reviol...
To the sea, to the sea, the white gulls are crying, the wind is blowing and the white foam is flying...
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Mar 2 2015, 8:26pm
Post #14 of 42
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There was another thread about this very subject. I like to think that he didn't know; that he died thinking Kili survived. After all, he was on one side of the tower and Kili was fighting Bolg on the other side, so it stands to reason that he wouldn't know.
And that's a good point about Dwarves fighting well together - they worked together to stop the spider from killing Bombur, they passed weapons around quickly in both Goblintown and the river escape, and they worked REALLY well together in Laketown. But we don't see alot of the individual fighting, except for the end when Kili fights to avenge his brother and Thorin is essentially doing the same - that fight on the ice, using the terrain to launch an attack and the broken ice as a weapon, that was the best. fight. ever. Unfortunately, neither of them won, which gives new meaning to the term "safety in numbers."
I honestly think the runestone is just a token, and that Kili was doomed when he took the bait, so I guess his death was of his own doing. But it's fun speculating on what could have been.
Why yes, I DO look like Anna Friel!
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Meneldor
Valinor
Mar 2 2015, 8:36pm
Post #15 of 42
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They're after me lucky charm! //
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They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107
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Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
Mar 2 2015, 8:43pm
Post #16 of 42
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As for Fili, his mistake wasn't sending his brother away. Had he kept Kili at his side they both would have been on that ledge with Azog before Thorin. His mistake was trying to scout out the tunnel on his own. Obviously, had he done as Thorin had instructed that whole fiasco could have been avoided as well. But even then, Kili could had also responded differently in that moment. You can tell he is pondering whether or not to heed his brothers words...and I give him credit for that. Of course, as we know, he leaves without an argument. However, he could've said to Fili "no, we'll scout this out together" or - better yet - he could've suggest "why don't we report back to Thorin". Both Fili and Kili were present when Thorin gave his instructions. They both knew they should have reported back to him yet neither of them thought to do it.
What was there for Fili and Kili to report, though? "We heard noises over in that direction" doesn't seem like something Thorin would be happy with. (On the other hand, it would have been better than what Thorin got.  )
“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”
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Ilmatar
Rohan
Mar 2 2015, 8:45pm
Post #17 of 42
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...Regarding Tauriel's "lack of action" before Kili gets stabbed: Some brief thoughts here.
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Lorien
Mar 2 2015, 9:30pm
Post #18 of 42
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The films made me love Fili, Kili and Thorin so much as individuals and as a family.
Their bonds as brother, nephew and an uncle is really what drives them all to their doom at the end (whether or not Tauriel was there). When you get down to it, Fili and Kili died very much in the spirit of their book counterparts, who fell defending Thorin. The film is basically a more complex version of this, but in the same spirit. In both book and film, their deaths are driven by the family bonds.
Also, major props to the actors for feeding evidence of these bonds at every opportunity. It seems like they went into these roles with an agreed upon understanding of the characters relationships with each other. There's the scripted stuff, of course, and if you watch closely these guys have so many great background/unscripted gestures and interactions- the relationships just become part of the fabric of a story, even though it's actually quite rarely in the center spotlight. It's fantastic. Go team Durin!
As for Dwarves/Safety in Numbers: That's why I still think Fili made a huge mistake in sending Kili away in the tower (never mind that both of them should have turned back when they figured out where the orcs were). Fili was trying to protect Kili, but I think BOTH would have stood a better chance against Azog and Friends had they stuck together. Fili and Kili are some of the best fighters in the company, but dwarvish-teamwork is like having an extra super power, at least in these movies. No wonder Fili the Walking Arsenal got taken down so quickly. :(
What was there for Fili and Kili to report, though? "We heard noises over in that direction" doesn't seem like something Thorin would be happy with. (On the other hand, it would have been better than what Thorin got. )
The orcs are in *this* tower, in *that* wing and on *this* floor. That's not bad information to be going with!
(This post was edited by marary on Mar 2 2015, 9:40pm)
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Kirly
Lorien
Mar 3 2015, 2:34am
Post #19 of 42
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My avatar photo is Lake Tekapo in New Zealand's South Island. Taken by me in 2004 on a Red Carpet Tours LOTR Movie Location Tour. 'Twas the Vacation of a Lifetime!
pictures taken while on the tour are here:
https://picasaweb.google.com/Kirly7/LOTRNewZealandTour#
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lionoferebor
Rohan
Mar 3 2015, 3:11am
Post #20 of 42
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What was there for Fili and Kili to report, though? "We heard noises over in that direction" doesn't seem like something Thorin would be happy with. (On the other hand, it would have been better than what Thorin got. )
Thorin probably would've been annoyed if they came back and reported they "heard a noise over there" - and sure Fili and Kili would have looked like fools for doing so - but I think Thorin would have prefered that over what actually did happen.
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lionoferebor
Rohan
Mar 3 2015, 4:38am
Post #21 of 42
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Even super-powers have there limits
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As for Dwarves/Safety in Numbers: That's why I still think Fili made a huge mistake in sending Kili away in the tower (never mind that both of them should have turned back when they figured out where the orcs were). Fili was trying to protect Kili, but I think BOTH would have stood a better chance against Azog and Friends had they stuck together. Fili and Kili are some of the best fighters in the company, but dwarvish-teamwork is like having an extra super power, at least in these movies. No wonder Fili the Walking Arsenal got taken down so quickly. :(
I'm not sure how much of a difference Kili's presence would have made, if he were in the tunnel with Fili when the Azog and his men arrived. I agree together Fili and Kili would have been a stronger force and harder to take down, but they still would have been out numbered while trapped in an enclosed space. Ultimately Azog would have had BOTH of them on the ledge had Fili not turned Kili away.
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Lorien
Mar 3 2015, 6:15am
Post #22 of 42
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That Thorin's knowledge/lack-of-knowledge regarding Kili at this point in the story actually creates a perfect reversal of how they die in the book. Book!Kili dies defending Thorin (who dies anyway), but film!Thorin actually dies defending Kili (who is already dead anyways).
During Thorin's final dual with Azog, he doesn't know Kili is already dead on the other side of the tower. From his point of view, drawing Azog and the orcs away from Kili serves to keep Kili alive. By taking the fatal wound to kill Azog, he meets his tactical objective of "cutting the head from the snake" AND taking out the guy who just said he was going to kill Kili next. When he decides to take a stab wound, it's quite possible his motivation was in protecting Kili. It would make a lot of sense, and the Kili-Thorin bond gets rather generous screen time in the film. I would not be surprised at all.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Mar 3 2015, 8:20am
Post #23 of 42
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I like that idea, it makes a lot of sense //
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marillaraina
Rohan
Mar 4 2015, 1:40am
Post #25 of 42
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What was there for Fili and Kili to report, though? "We heard noises over in that direction" doesn't seem like something Thorin would be happy with. (On the other hand, it would have been better than what Thorin got. ) Thorin probably would've been annoyed if they came back and reported they "heard a noise over there" - and sure Fili and Kili would have looked like fools for doing so - but I think Thorin would have prefered that over what actually did happen.
I don't think so. Audible evidence is perfectly reasonable evidence. I think Thorin and Dwalin would have taken audible evidence and their "gut feelings" as perfectly good evidence. It's not like both of them wouldn't have done similar things on multiple occasions. In fact we see Thorin do it a couple times in the films. Nothing obvious but he hears something or has a feeing and knows something is up.
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