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Kim
Valinor
Mar 1 2015, 7:01am
Post #1 of 32
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Use of Dwarvish/Khuzdul in the Hobbit movies
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Did anyone else wonder why we heard so much more Elvish, Orcish and Black Speech than we did of Dwarvish? And when we did hear Dwarvish, none of it was subtitled? Could this be because Tolkien didn’t really detail out this language as much as the other languages? Or could it have been to emphasize that the use of Dwarvish was usually only in the presence of dwarves? Just curious if anyone has any theories, or if there have been any comments/articles on this from people involved in the movies. I for one would have loved to have had more Dwarvish included, with subtitles.
#OneLastTime
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Mar 1 2015, 7:42am
Post #2 of 32
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Dwarvish was a secret language.
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Read the short section on Dwarves in LotR Appendix F, "The Languages and Peoples of the Third Age". The Dwarves, having a very different origin from Elves and Men, kept to themselves. When engaging in commerce with Elves and Men, they spoke Common Tongue.
Yet in secret (a secret which, unlike the Elves, they did not willingly unlock, even to their friends) they used their own strange tongue, changed little by the years; for it had become a tongue of lore rather than a cradle-speech, and they tended it and guarded it as a treasure of the past. Few of other race have succeeded in learning it. In this history [i.e., LotR] it appears only in such place-names as Gimli revealed to his companions, and in the battle-cry which he uttered in the siege of the Hornburg.
In other words, no, Tolkien didn't "detail out" this language much. Probably most of what we heard in the movies was invented for that purpose.
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Mar 1 2015, 7:42am)
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Ilmatar
Rohan
Mar 1 2015, 10:20am
Post #3 of 32
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I like Khuzdul and would have wanted more of it, with subtitles please.
Khuzdul is quite guttural and I think it sounds especially impressive in battle cries and curses - Thorin's and Dain's warcries come to mind.  But then again, we have only one example (at least I think so) for gently spoken dwarvish endearments, Kili's "Amrâlimê" (My love) to Tauriel. In that context it sounds beautiful and not harsh at all.
I checked Thorin's shout to Thranduil, “Imrid amrâd ursul!” in DOS, with both the Finnish subtitles and English subtitles for the hearing impaired. In Finnish it's completely ignored, while all English before & after has been given subtitles. In English for the hearing impaired, there is [SPEAKS IN DWARVISH]! Very secretive indeed.  But I have seen it translated as "Die a death of flames" and can't really see why that could not be put in subtitles, maybe with the Khuzdul words first, and the translation on a separate row.
At some point I came across The Dwarrow Scholar site that has a professional, linguistic take on the matter. It offers information about dwarves and their language, with even free Khuzdul lessons for those motivated enough to learn new languages.
In Elizabeth's post, this part: "for it had become a tongue of lore rather than a cradle-speech," I accidentally read "tongue of love." Ooops. Maybe not. 
(This post was edited by Ilmatar on Mar 1 2015, 10:25am)
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Mar 1 2015, 11:06am
Post #4 of 32
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I believe Tolkien focused most of all on developing the Elvish language (it was what he was most interested in, I believe), rather than Dwarvish or any other language.
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QuackingTroll
Valinor
Mar 1 2015, 11:32am
Post #5 of 32
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Also, the elves speak in common tongue in The Hobbit...
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In Lord of the Rings the elves would speak to eachother in elvish and to the Fellowship (excluding Legolas and Aragorn) in common tongue.
Elrond would switch between both to represent his half-elven blood.
In The Hobbit the elves just switch all the time for no apparent reason, which is kinda annoying. The scenes where Legolas, Tauriel and Thranduil were talking to eachother should have been all elvish.
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Kirly
Lorien
Mar 1 2015, 1:42pm
Post #6 of 32
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Kili say Amralime, I thought he said, "I'm proudly made".
My avatar photo is Lake Tekapo in New Zealand's South Island. Taken by me in 2004 on a Red Carpet Tours LOTR Movie Location Tour. 'Twas the Vacation of a Lifetime!
pictures taken while on the tour are here:
https://picasaweb.google.com/Kirly7/LOTRNewZealandTour#
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Ilmatar
Rohan
Mar 1 2015, 2:41pm
Post #7 of 32
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That may very well be true for all we know. It does sound pretty close, when your ears are expecting to hear English - maybe with a strong accent.
But if Kili had started with that his conversation with Tauriel in that parting scene, it might have caused a little more surprised reaction. "Ah... Ok...?"
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Kirly
Lorien
Mar 1 2015, 3:35pm
Post #8 of 32
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That was exactly me reaction - "well, ok then!" ///
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My avatar photo is Lake Tekapo in New Zealand's South Island. Taken by me in 2004 on a Red Carpet Tours LOTR Movie Location Tour. 'Twas the Vacation of a Lifetime!
pictures taken while on the tour are here:
https://picasaweb.google.com/Kirly7/LOTRNewZealandTour#
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Starglass
Rivendell
Mar 1 2015, 4:39pm
Post #9 of 32
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I like how you pointed out that Kili's words to Tauriel sound so much softer than the other Khuzdul phrases we heard during the films. In fact they sound so different that on my first viewing of the film I thought Kili was speaking in Elvish (thinking maybe Tauriel had taught him some phrases). 
Khuzdul is indeed a fascinating language. I've also seen that website you mentioned and I would love to take a crack at learning it when I get some free time (I'm definitely a language person).
(This post was edited by Starglass on Mar 1 2015, 4:40pm)
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Macfeast
Rohan
Mar 1 2015, 4:46pm
Post #10 of 32
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When I first heard it, not only did I think that it was Elvish... I thought that it was made-up Elvish, that Kíli was just saying something that he thought sounded vaguely Elvish and romantic, and that this was why Tauriel did not understand
(This post was edited by Macfeast on Mar 1 2015, 4:47pm)
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Starglass
Rivendell
Mar 1 2015, 4:51pm
Post #11 of 32
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I wouldn't put it past Kili!
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moreorless
Gondor
Mar 1 2015, 6:29pm
Post #12 of 32
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My guess is that Jackson wanted the Dwarves to be the characters we most identifed with...
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One of the key effects of having characters speak a language the viewer likely can't understand to create a sense of them being a little alien/foreign. In LOTR Jackson might have wanted that a bit around Gimli but in the Hobbit the Dwarves are really the characters were sposed to identify with most closely besides Bilbo so I think Jackson deliberately had them speak English though out.
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Kim
Valinor
Mar 1 2015, 6:36pm
Post #13 of 32
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I'll have to check that out.
While we could basically get the gist of what was said in Dwarvish by the context and reactions of others (Gandalf's response to Bifur in Bag End, Thranduil's response to Thorin, and Balin's response to Thorin plus the look on Thorin's face when he got thrown in his cell), I would have liked it to be treated more like the other languages. I watched DOS the other night and all the Orcish really stood out and just made me wonder why we got so much of that and not more Dwarvish. We know all the actors playing dwarves had Khuzdul lessons, so would have like to have heard it from more of them. But to Elizabeth's point, maybe it's not meant to be an everyday conversational language.
Tongue of love, eh? Well I suppose it could be, as in "I would love to embed my axe in your nervous system!"
#OneLastTime
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Kim
Valinor
Mar 1 2015, 6:39pm
Post #14 of 32
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I thought he was speaking Elvish, but had such bad pronunciation/accent that Tauriel couldn't understand it! It would have been nice to hear more "soft" Khuzdul than just the curses and war cries.
#OneLastTime
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Kim
Valinor
Mar 1 2015, 6:45pm
Post #15 of 32
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I hadn't made that connection. Agreed that I would have liked the elves to be more consistent with that approach. I did kind of distract me when Tauriel and Legolas kept switching back and forth in their scene when he caught up with her after the dwarves escaped, even though some here have commented that is common with a lot of bi-lingual speakers.
#OneLastTime
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Kim
Valinor
Mar 1 2015, 6:48pm
Post #16 of 32
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And I'm sure made sense given the sheer number of dwarves and scenes that they were in. Plus, for a large chunk of them, either Gandalf and/or Bilbo were present. Still, it would have been cool for a scene with only a few dwarves, say the one of Thorin and Balin in the hallway of Bag End.
#OneLastTime
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ecthelionsbeard
Lorien
Mar 1 2015, 8:11pm
Post #17 of 32
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I often feel like Khuzdul was lacking in the Hobbit movies. I longed for more of it. We got a little from Bifur but no where near what I had hoped. These films are infinitely more dwarf-centric than elf centric and yet we got so much more elvish than khuzdul. Perhaps Tolkien simply didn't develop it as much as he did elvish.
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banaili
Bree
Mar 1 2015, 8:43pm
Post #18 of 32
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I would very much have liked to hear more Dwarvish during the films as well! I think you might be right, perhaps the language wasn't developed quite enough for too much to be said in the language during the films. But I did love where it was included (that goes especially for its inclusion in the song "Feast of Starlight"!)--Bifur sure had fun with it, hahaha!
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moreorless
Gondor
Mar 1 2015, 10:37pm
Post #19 of 32
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And I'm sure made sense given the sheer number of dwarves and scenes that they were in. Plus, for a large chunk of them, either Gandalf and/or Bilbo were present. Still, it would have been cool for a scene with only a few dwarves, say the one of Thorin and Balin in the hallway of Bag End.
We did of course get a small amount of Dwarvish with Thorin's insult to Thranduil,
Generally though my feeling with the book was that the Dwarves almost felt Hobbit like in that they were a bit more "modern" than even most of the men we see(besides maybe the Breelanders in LOTR) from Tolkien who are more high fantasy.
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Ilmatar
Rohan
Mar 1 2015, 11:12pm
Post #20 of 32
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About Khuzdul not being developed enough etc.
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A thought in answer to all post(er)s regarding whether Khuzdul was not developed enough by Tolkien: Most of the Elvish (Sindarin/Quenya) phrases we hear were not penned by Tolkien himself either - even if the grammar was - but rather by Elvish language scholars & connoisseurs. And what Khuzdul we did hear was linguistically VERY correct and double-checked as far as that's possible, I'm sure, when there are people like David Salo, "Tolkien language student and translator/inventor of languages for The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit films" as stated in his blog Midgardsmal.
For example, it's essential to know that while calling a female beloved "amrâlimê" is correct, we need to say "amrâlumê" for a male loved one. (Things one can learn when reading comments to a blog post! But that's the extent of my knowledge in Khuzdul.)
While everything the characters - elves or dwarves - said could have been said in their respective languages, it would have required a huge amount of subtitles in the films, and put a superhuman strain on the actors & actresses to learn all their dialogue in Sindarin or Khuzdul! Naturally I'm not claiming that anyone seriously suggested that. I think that when, for example, Legolas spoke with Tauriel, they would have actually used only Sindarin, but for the benefit of the actors & viewers alike there were only a few phrases of it in the film - to give us a taste of their elvishness - and the rest in Common Tongue (or English in this case). And bilingual people do sometimes switch languages in the middle, though usually not for a few sentences only, to my experience. (Especially when in company of our foreign friends my SO and I sometimes start in English when talking with each other as well, then depending on the topic may switch to Finnish without really noticing it, and then back to English again. At times I have not been able to remember whether a particular part of a conversation was in English or our native tongue.)
But then again, when Thorin spoke with Balin, would they have used Common Tongue because Khudzul was by then a "tongue of lore", reserved for special purposes? Or would they have used Khuzdul because "Yet in secret --- they used their own strange tongue"? Hmmm. I don't have the opportunity or time to dig that deep into this, but maybe someone here already knows.
I wonder if David Salo may be of Finnish descent, as that is a surname here. Tolkien based the Elvish languages partly on Finnish, but I don't know his inspiriation for Khuzdul.
(This post was edited by Ilmatar on Mar 1 2015, 11:21pm)
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Kim
Valinor
Mar 1 2015, 11:42pm
Post #21 of 32
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I've found that I don't really hear the other languages in the songs, it blends in so well, it's almost subliminal. Part of a larger whole, but not as distinctive in and of itself.
It did seem like William Kircher really got into learning it - would have been fun to hear a few more phrases from him. 
#OneLastTime
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Kim
Valinor
Mar 2 2015, 7:50am
Post #22 of 32
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Very interesting reading on that site, thanks again
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Especially the section on the characteristics of dwarves.
Also wanted to throw in my additional related question: has anyone translated any of the runes in Erebor? (Beyond Graham McTavish's interpretation, that is )
#OneLastTime
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arithmancer
Grey Havens
Mar 2 2015, 12:25pm
Post #24 of 32
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..."the power of the Arkenstone" *is* that it unites all the Dwarves.
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Ilmatar
Rohan
Mar 2 2015, 8:29pm
Post #25 of 32
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I just got the impression in from the film that Gloin was reading the runes word-by-word, instead of their symbolical meaning.
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Maybe this photo - found via Google search - is from some earlier concept. Or then Gloin (?) and i just have a different understanding of runes. 
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