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Darkstone
Immortal
Mar 2 2015, 8:30pm
Post #26 of 44
(2050 views)
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Do Nazgul have pointy eyeballs?
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Just as Strider finishes his tale, the Hobbits feel the chill of the approaching Riders. Strider advises them to stay near the fire facing outward, and carry long sticks.
1. Why sticks, not swords?
Would you trust these yahoos with anything sharp? They’d put their eyes out!
Why not lighted firebrands, since the Nazgul appear to fear fire?
Oh, sure. Then they’d burn down themselves, Weathertop, and half the Wild.
Remember, Strider *is* a Ranger, brother to Smokey the Bear.
The Riders advance, and everyone reacts differently:
* Merry and Pippin throw themselves on the ground.
Hobbits make great speed-bumps in battles. Look at the Battle of Five Armies and the Morannon.
* Sam sticks by Frodo.
Newbies are told to stick like glue to veterans in battle.
Unfortunately Frodo is a newbie, too.
* Frodo is overcome by a compulsion to put on the Ring, to which he eventually succumbs.
“If you can’t beat them, command them”?
* Where the *bleep* is Strider?
It’s the ancient but effective military tactic of “hammer and anvil”: Strider circles around then hits the Nazgul from the flank like a hammer, while the stationary hobbits are the anvil the Nagzul get smashed against. Or that the Nazgul trip over. Or that the Nazgul stab to death. Hey, it worked for Alexander the Great!
With the Ring on, Frodo sees the Nazgul in the “spirit realm”:
He was able to see beneath their black wrappings. There were five tall figures: two standing on the lip of the dell, three advancing. In their white faces burned keen and merciless eyes; under their mantles were long grey robes; upon their grey hairs…
Is it me or does it sound like five Gandalfs are attacking?
…were helms of silver; in their haggard hands were swords of steel. Their eyes fell on him and pierced him, as they rushed towards him.
I’m assuming "pierced" is metaphorical.
Frodo draws his sword (apparently the only one to do so).
Note it seems to glow red in the presence of Nazgul:
Desperate, he drew his own sword, and it seemed to him that it flickered red, as if it was a firebrand.
It does the same at the ford:
His hand left the bridle and gripped the hilt of his sword, and with a red flash he drew it.
2. What took Strider so long?
Well, Frodo *is* invisible.
Why wasn’t he waving firebrands when the Nazgul first approached?
Cause he was too busy lighting them?
3. What is the first-time reader supposed to make of O Elbereth! Gilthoniel?
Personally I’m wondering what the poor typesetter thought of it.
In the story, did it help?!
Seems to have. In which case why weren’t they all along singing the song of the same name as well as hymns like “Amazing Erulissë”, “Ainur We Have Heard on High”, and “Closer My Eru to Thee”?
The eternal question that we always debate here is, why didn’t the Riders take the Ring, take Frodo, or take both?! It was right there!
Kinda the same question of why General Richard S. Ewell didn’t take Culp's Hill at the beginning of the battle of Gettysburg and so win the War Between the States and obtain independence for the Confederate States of America, yee-haw! I mean, it was right there!
But as commanding General Robert E. Lee wrote in his report of the battle “General Ewell was … instructed to carry the hill occupied by the enemy if he found it practicable, but to avoid a general engagement until the arrival of the other divisions of the army which were ordered to hasten forward.”
In other words, conflicting orders?
A few theories*, advanced first by Ataira in 2002 and echoed ever since:
* Strider’s opposition was too much for them: granted, Strider is the heir of Elendil, but he is still only one against five. About the same number of Nazgul wiped out an entire band of Rangers at Tharbad.
But here we’re talking about a Ranger and four hobbits. Obviously the hobbits made a huge difference.
Maybe the hobbits should have been guarding the Dunedain all along so the Kingdom of Arnor wouldn’t have dwindled?
* The Riders intended to take Frodo, but wanted to give him the wound first to lower, and eventually destroy any resistance.
They should already know from Gollum that hobbits are extremely resilient. And tend to go over the bend instead of under the thumb.
* The Riders only intended to wound Frodo, then leave him in the wilderness, watching and waiting until he became a wraith.
Emperor Palpatine did that with Anakin Skywalker and look what eventually happened. Still, he did have a pretty good run. And bachelor Darth Frodo wouldn’t have had any snot-nosed brats to show up and “save” him.
4. What’s your theory?
I like the possibility that Frodo scared the bejeezus out of him and left him hiding in a corner and quaking in his heavy boots:
But above all the timid and terrified Bearer had resisted him, had dared to strike at him with an enchanted sword made by his own enemies long ago for his destruction. Narrowly it had missed him. How he had come by it - save in the Barrows of Cardolan. Then he was in some way mightier than the B[arrow]-wight; and he called on ELbereth, a name of terror to the Nazgûl. He was then in league with the High Elves of the Havens.
Escaping a wound that would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor-knife to Frodo (as was proved at the end), he withdrew and hid for a while, out of doubt and fear both of Aragorn and especially of Frodo.
-Hammond and Scull, The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion, quote from an unpublished manuscript in Marquette MSS (Marquette MSS 4/2/36)
"Especially of Frodo". Heh!
5. Isn’t Frodo wielding one of the Barrow swords that worked so well for Merry against the same Witch King on the Pelennor Fields?
Seemed so.
Why didn’t it work here?
You got to hit for it to work.
'Look!' he cried; and stooping he lifted from the ground a black cloak that had lain there hidden by the darkness. A foot above the lower hem there was a slash. 'This was the stroke of Frodo's sword,' he said. 'The only hurt that it did to his enemy, I fear; for it is unharmed, but all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King. More deadly to him was the name of Elbereth.'
* Spoiler: For what purports to be a definitive answer, see this link.
Oh. Re my answer to number 4: Never mind.
******************************************
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a wonderful town!!!
Mount Doom blew up,
And the Black Tower's down!!
The orcs all fell in a hole in the ground!
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a heckuva town!!!
-Lord of the Rings: The Musical, music by Leonard Bernstein, lyrics by Betty Comden and Adolph Green
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Mar 3 2015, 12:56am
Post #27 of 44
(2040 views)
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Yes, I expect that the Nazgul were used to hearing the name of Elbereth, but maybe not at this time and from a Hobbit? Especially as the heir of Elendil is near. Perhaps a bit of a tougher breed than those guarding at Sarn Ford. Possibly even Halbarad wasn't at the Sarn Ford? And maybe the fact that Frodo said it in the Wraith world gave extra emphasis to the words? Yes, I expect that Strider was at the front of the party down the road a bit, but Frodo putting on the Ring was a bit of a surprise for him. Oh and one question from me, we know that the Witch-King was here but what of the other Nazgul? Was Mr. Khumul present as well?
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Mar 3 2015, 1:42pm
Post #28 of 44
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Oh and one question from me, we know that the Witch-King was here but what of the other Nazgul?
The other four were hot after Gandalf at the time.
It goeth something like this:
Oct. 3rd, dusk (or a little later), Gandalf was attacked by all Nine on Weathertop.
Sunrise of Oct. 4th Gandalf retreats north with all Nine hot after him.
After a time Five of the Nine gave up the chase and headed back to the East Road & Weathertop.
After some more time the remaining Four gave up the chase and headed toward the Ford of Bruinen. (Why it took them two weeks to get there is unknown, but it is thought that they probably stopped over at the Yrch & Torog for some practice throat-slicing.)
Khamul was patiently waiting for the Witch King to be killed (or sent wherever such atrocities go), so he could become the Most-high Mucky.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Mar 3 2015, 3:04pm
Post #29 of 44
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I think there's something important about the attack on Weathertop that I haven't understood.
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I think there's something important about the attack on Weathertop that I haven't understood.
The narrative drives Frodo there with great determination: even though (as we have been discussing) it is a bit surprising in the final version that Strider wants to go there.
Unless my memory of HoME is in error, the Weathertop episode was one Tolkien came up with as soon as his draft reached that far. Various details changed around, but there was always a failed rendezvous with Gandalf, which turns into an attack by the Riders at which Frodo (or his predecessor Bingo) is wounded. So perhaps Tolkien felt strongly that this episode was "how the story went". I wonder why?
The setting for this encounter seems significant too: a ruined fortress, redolent of earlier battles against Sauron, and now amphitheatre-like, or temple-like.
"This means something!" as Darkstone is wont to say.
But what?
There is not (unless I Have missed it) an overt plot significance. Frodo-as-a-Marvel-Superhero would acquire his superpower right here ("by a million to one chance I survived!".) It doesn't seem quite like that!
There are after-effects: Gandalf in Many Meetings watches the sleeping Frodo and thinks there is a change to his appearance.
But to the wizard's eye there was a faint change, just a hint as it were of transparency, about him, and especially about the left hand that lay outside upon the coverlet.
There's mention in Moria that he can see better in the dark...
but then not much seems to come of it.
It is, of course the first of 3 wounds Frodo is to receive, and one that quite explicitly continues to trouble him.
But it neither overcomes him on his way to Rivendell, nor prevents him from volunteering to set out on the further journey.
Hmm.... any ideas?
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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Felagund
Rohan
Mar 3 2015, 4:44pm
Post #30 of 44
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the movements of the Black Easterling (bailiff no. 2)
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The only info I can find that's definitive about the movements of Khamûl is that he was the Black Rider who spent most time traipsing around the Shire. He was the one who penetrated Hobbiton and spoke with Gaffer Gamgee, followed Frodo & Co. along the road to Stock, chased them to Buckleberry Ferry, and who menaced Farmer Maggot.
When the Lord of the Nazgûl split his forces after the fight with Gandalf, you'd reckon that he put Khamûl in charge of the team sent to pursue the wizard while he himself continued to the hunt for the Ring. On the other hand, Tolkien says that Khamûl was, after the Black Captain, the Nazgûl most attuned to the One Ring. So maybe he was worth keeping in the hunter party?
I sort of feel sorry for him, either way. He spent the most time dealing with irritating hobbits. I know nobody likes a bailiff, but when it comes down to it, he was tasked with seizing goods owed to Sauron, and those lippy hobbits closed ranks and didn't do their civic duty by turning in Frodo. Farmer Maggot even threatened to set his dogs on him! Outrageous behaviour against an officer trying to uphold the rule of law.
[Source: 'The Hunt for the Ring', except for the bit about the Nazgûl being bailiffs]
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Mar 3 2015, 5:47pm
Post #31 of 44
(2013 views)
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OMG! The Mouth of Sauron is in our midst.
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I sort of feel sorry for him, either way. He spent the most time dealing with irritating hobbits. I know nobody likes a bailiff, but when it comes down to it, he was tasked with seizing goods owed to Sauron, and those lippy hobbits closed ranks and didn't do their civic duty by turning in Frodo. Farmer Maggot even threatened to set his dogs on him! Outrageous behaviour against an officer trying to uphold the rule of law. Well, okay, Felagund, if you're going to feel sorry for Khamul, you ought to feel sorry for the Witch-king too, who was handily beating down Gondor until some stupid horsemen showed up with a bunch of noisy horns, and then, convinced that no living man could kill him, some silly blond girl finds a loophole in the prophecy (along with another irritating hobbit who cowardly stabs him from behind), and poof, he's dead. You go from Hero of Mordor for the day to a bunch of nothing. It seemed so easy to be one of the Boss's top men and have a magic ring and endless life, and it's all ended by a bunch of losers. This is the kind of life that tragedies are written about.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Mar 3 2015, 6:00pm
Post #32 of 44
(2010 views)
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What's the point of Weathertop
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In the era of product placement in movies, it's possible that Weathertop had itself inserted in the story to boost its tourism revenue, and it was just Tolkien selling out to the advertisers.
But I think the Weathertop events are a turning point for Frodo. (Another big one is his experience with Galadriel and her Mirror.) Without the Morgul stabbing and his fading and near-death, I don't think we'd have the same Frodo who is more steeled in determination (attacking the cave troll in Moria, setting out for Mordor alone at Parth Galen), is more likely to try to rehabilitate Smeagol than kill him, becomes a pacifist after the war, and even forgives Saruman's attempted murder of him. There are too many things that happen to Frodo to say any one of them is responsible for shaping his character's growth, but I think the Weathertop stabbing is a big one. He has to look back and wonder why he gave into the temptation to put on the Ring, why he saw the Nazgul and the others didn't, what that other world was that he saw, why is this all happening to him, will he ever recover and be himself again after that brush with death, and what is he supposed to do about it all. By all rights, he should have told Gandalf in Rivendell that he was through with the Ring, he'd done his part and taken his wounds, and someone else should take it the rest of the way. The fact that he didn't amplifies his quiet heroism quite a lot.
To look at it another way, that Frodo gets to Rivendell after being chased non-stop by the Nazgul but without incident, I think he'd seem less a hero and more of a lucky survivor. If he were to decide in Rivendell to take the Ring to Mount Doom, it would seem like he was counting on luck or didn't know what he'd really gotten into. But going through what he did so early on, he knows how bad it can be, and goes on anyway.
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sador
Half-elven
Mar 3 2015, 6:03pm
Post #33 of 44
(1997 views)
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But that is Eru's reason, not Strider's excuse. //
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Felagund
Rohan
Mar 3 2015, 6:10pm
Post #34 of 44
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Witch-king, tragically slain hero and selfless defender of Mordor
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The Witch-king's attack on Minas Tirith was a perfectly legitimate pre-emptive strike against an aggressive neighbour. Gondor and its barbarian horsemen allies were planning to invade Mordor - the burning of the lovely gardens of Minas Morgul and the brazen attack on the Morannon just proves it!
As for what happened at the Pelennor Fields, the whole thing was a total stab in the back. Rohirrim, prophetic loopholes, cowardly blows and summoning an army of the dead! I'm pretty sure that necromancy is banned under the Geneva Conventions.
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Felagund
Rohan
Mar 3 2015, 6:28pm
Post #35 of 44
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Tolkien's "what-if...?" scenario: Frodo vs the Nazgûl at Mount Doom
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Tolkien runs a nice 'what if' scenario, in direct comparison with the events on Weathertop (Letter 246). In the letter he describes what might have happened if the Nazgûl had made it to Mount Doom in time to confront Frodo, who had just formally proclaimed himself 'owner' of the One Ring. Unlike at Weathertop, the Nazgûl couldn't simply rush Frodo - because, it is said, he had 'grown' spiritually since that earlier confrontation, and was, to an extent able to cow the Eight (Witch-king is dead, remember). They would have had to have used guile, pretending to acknowledge Frodo as their 'lord', whilst stalling for time until Sauron could arrive and put Frodo out of his deluded misery.
The result would have been even worse for Frodo than Weathertop, but it's an awesome hypothetical from the author that juxtaposes the two confrontations very handily.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Mar 3 2015, 6:31pm
Post #36 of 44
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I'm pretty sure that necromancy is banned under the Geneva Conventions.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Mar 3 2015, 9:53pm
Post #37 of 44
(1974 views)
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~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Mar 4 2015, 12:04am
Post #38 of 44
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That the entire attacking Gondor too soon before Mordor was ready and the Rohirrim arriving and the Witch-King been slain at the Pelennor was all a conspiracty by the Mouth of Sauron to get rid of his major rival for Sauron's affections.
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Mar 4 2015, 4:04pm
Post #39 of 44
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1. Why sticks, not swords? Why not lighted firebrands, since the Nazgul appear to fear fire?
Maybe they were there to light, but the hobbits lost their nerve? Maybe the original plan was for them to light the sticks and surprise the Nazgul, keeping them at distance while Strider came from the back, catching them between two fires?
Just my speculation but, I doubt very much that they made no plans and that the hobbits' actions:
* Merry and Pippin throw themselves on the ground.
* Sam sticks by Frodo.
* Frodo is overcome by a compulsion to put on the Ring, to which he eventually succumbs.
...Were part of amy kind of plan.
* Where the *bleep* is Strider?
Maybe hurriedly composing a new plan in the shadows? Muttering several choice words at the failure of the hobbits? Waiting for an opportunity to counter-attack?
2. What took Strider so long? Why wasn’t he waving firebrands when the Nazgul first approached?
See answer #1
3. What is the first-time reader supposed to make of O Elbereth! Gilthoniel?
This is what I thought:
Oh, more weird words... How do you pronounce that?
In the story, did it help?!
Gandalf thought so.
The eternal question that we always debate here is, why didn’t the Riders take the Ring, take Frodo, or take both?! It was right there! A few theories*, advanced first by Ataira in 2002 and echoed ever since:
* Strider’s opposition was too much for them: granted, Strider is the heir of Elendil, but he is still only one against five. About the same number of Nazgul wiped out an entire band of Rangers at Tharbad.
Maybe his bloodline and destiny makes him a little entitled to some invulnerability? Maybe that anecdote of Tharbad is a bit of an 'embellished' hyperbole? The element of surprise?
* The Riders intended to take Frodo, but wanted to give him the wound first to lower, and eventually destroy any resistance.
Well, they know how corruptable Men are, so maybe they assumed a Halfling would be twice as corruptible with half the resistance?
Nazgul Maths!
MCR=(Mean corruption rate), T=(time) , X= (Amount of time for corruption)
MenMCR = (2)HalflingMCR
T/MenMCR= X
T/HalflingMCR= X/2
* The Riders only intended to wound Frodo, then leave him in the wilderness, watching and waiting until he became a wraith.
See Nazgul Maths.
4. What’s your theory?
Not so much 'theory' as 'comments'.
From earlier conceptions, the hobbits were always headed to Weathertop, whether to meet Gandalf, or not, so it was an established plot point. In the final draft, we know that Nazgul had been there, and encountered Gandalf who managed to draw off four. So, it was a trap, of sorts, and one barely missed. Here, I think we see that Weathertop always posed some kind of danger to our friends. Though the story details changed, that dangerous destination remained. Through all the drafts, speaks to me. It was almost always a trap, and we see the consistency of one thought being borne out. Tolkien thought it was important, so that means... something.
Thoughts?
5. Isn’t Frodo wielding one of the Barrow swords that worked so well for Merry against the same Witch King on the Pelennor Fields? Why didn’t it work here?
He is, and I am inclined to think it did not touch the W-K because of the fact. Doesn't soemone say the name of Elbereth was more deadly that the sword? I see this a a down-playing of the sword, only to be built back up at Pelennor. The blade could not kill him, but it could harm him enough to let Eowyn do the deed. Well, you've outed me. I think Eowyn was the primary actor in the death of the W-K.
Comments.
I really like this chapter, despite the questions surrounding the plot and character motivations, because in this instance those creatures of ineffable terror have their own fears revealed and used against them. It reminds me of Gimli's quip:
'With its own weapons was it worsted!'
and
'Oft evil will shall evil mar'
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Mar 4 2015, 4:11pm
Post #40 of 44
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I like the fact that these creatures of terror are bested by their own fears..
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Though our heroes' fears are there to be conquered by trial, the fears of those on the side of evil are concealed and never overcome, becoming their ultimate weaknesses.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Mar 4 2015, 4:19pm
Post #41 of 44
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I'm thinking it is not quite logical, either
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IIRC, from the earliest drafts, the hobbits were headed to Weathertop, albeit for changing reasons. I think your assessment of the needs of the story playing out here.
If I were to attempt an answer, I'd base it on the irrational fear of the Nazgul being turned against them, causing them to act in a very irrational manner.
I'm thinking about your last question, but in considering that the most effective weapon of the Nazgul is fear in their ambiguity, I think they were never meant to be faced with mortal weapons.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Brethil
Half-elven
Mar 5 2015, 12:29am
Post #42 of 44
(1949 views)
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In the era of product placement in movies, it's possible that Weathertop had itself inserted in the story to boost its tourism revenue, and it was just Tolkien selling out to the advertisers.
But I think the Weathertop events are a turning point for Frodo. (Another big one is his experience with Galadriel and her Mirror.) Without the Morgul stabbing and his fading and near-death, I don't think we'd have the same Frodo who is more steeled in determination (attacking the cave troll in Moria, setting out for Mordor alone at Parth Galen), is more likely to try to rehabilitate Smeagol than kill him, becomes a pacifist after the war, and even forgives Saruman's attempted murder of him. There are too many things that happen to Frodo to say any one of them is responsible for shaping his character's growth, but I think the Weathertop stabbing is a big one. He has to look back and wonder why he gave into the temptation to put on the Ring, why he saw the Nazgul and the others didn't, what that other world was that he saw, why is this all happening to him, will he ever recover and be himself again after that brush with death, and what is he supposed to do about it all. By all rights, he should have told Gandalf in Rivendell that he was through with the Ring, he'd done his part and taken his wounds, and someone else should take it the rest of the way. The fact that he didn't amplifies his quiet heroism quite a lot.
To look at it another way, that Frodo gets to Rivendell after being chased non-stop by the Nazgul but without incident, I think he'd seem less a hero and more of a lucky survivor. If he were to decide in Rivendell to take the Ring to Mount Doom, it would seem like he was counting on luck or didn't know what he'd really gotten into. But going through what he did so early on, he knows how bad it can be, and goes on anyway.
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Brethil
Half-elven
Mar 5 2015, 12:31am
Post #43 of 44
(1951 views)
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* The Riders intended to take Frodo, but wanted to give him the wound first to lower, and eventually destroy any resistance.
Well, they know how corruptable Men are, so maybe they assumed a Halfling would be twice as corruptible with half the resistance?
Nazgul Maths!
MCR=(Mean corruption rate), T=(time) , X= (Amount of time for corruption)
MenMCR = (2)HalflingMCR
T/MenMCR= X
T/HalflingMCR= X/2
So does the MCR correlate to surface area? 
(This post was edited by Brethil on Mar 5 2015, 12:32am)
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Mar 5 2015, 8:30pm
Post #44 of 44
(1930 views)
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It's all based on volume! 
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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