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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Feb 28 2015, 9:20am
Post #1 of 44
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**LotR: Fellowship of the Ring, 11.5 Attack! **
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Just as Strider finishes his tale, the Hobbits feel the chill of the approaching Riders. Strider advises them to stay near the fire facing outward, and carry long sticks.
1. Why sticks, not swords? Why not lighted firebrands, since the Nazrul appear to fear fire?
The Riders advance, and everyone reacts differently:
* Merry and Pippin throw themselves on the ground.
* Sam sticks by Frodo.
* Frodo is overcome by a compulsion to put on the Ring, to which he eventually succumbs.
* Where the *bleep* is Strider?
With the Ring on, Frodo sees the Nazgul in the “spirit realm”:
He was able to see beneath their black wrappings. There were five tall figures: two standing on the lip of the dell, three advancing. In their white faces burned keen and merciless eyes; under their mantles were long grey robes; upon their grey hairs were helms of silver; in their haggard hands were swords of steel. Their eyes fell on him and pierced him, as they rushed towards him.
Frodo draws his sword (apparently the only one to do so). One of the Riders, whom we later know as the Witch King, approaches with a sword and a knife. At that moment Frodo threw himself forward on the ground, and he heard himself crying aloud: O Elbereth! Gilthoniel! At the same time he strikes at the feet of his enemy. But the Witch King succeeds in stabbing him with the knife in his left shoulder. At this moment, Strider arrives, carrying a flaming torch in each hand, and the attackers apparently withdraw. Finally, Frodo takes off the Ring.
2. What took Strider so long? Why wasn’t he waving firebrands when the Nazgul first approached?
3. What is the first-time reader supposed to make of O Elbereth! Gilthoniel? In the story, did it help?!
The eternal question that we always debate here is, why didn’t the Riders take the Ring, take Frodo, or take both?! It was right there! A few theories*, advanced first by Ataira in 2002 and echoed ever since:
* Strider’s opposition was too much for them: granted, Strider is the heir of Elendil, but he is still only one against five. About the same number of Nazgul wiped out an entire band of Rangers at Tharbad.
* The Riders intended to take Frodo, but wanted to give him the wound first to lower, and eventually destroy any resistance.
* The Riders only intended to wound Frodo, then leave him in the wilderness, watching and waiting until he became a wraith.
4. What’s your theory?
5. Isn’t Frodo wielding one of the Barrow swords that worked so well for Merry against the same Witch King on the Pelennor Fields? Why didn’t it work here?
That’s it for this week. Next week we deal with the aftermath of the attack. Thanks, all for your participation!
In case you’ve been a fan this long and still haven’t seen it, here’s a link to Ringwraith email. See it from their POV!
* Spoiler: For what purports to be a definitive answer, see this link.
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Feb 28 2015, 2:38pm
Post #2 of 44
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1. Why sticks, not swords? Why not lighted firebrands, since the Nazrul appear to fear fire?
I believe they WERE firebrands, as I read it – ’Keep close to the fire. . .’ ‘Get some of the longer sticks ready in your hands!’ Not just sticks but sticks afire. But were the Nazgul afraid of fire? They were corrupted in a land of fire and brimstone – Mordor. They appeared to have no fear of approaching the campfire at Weathertop. They fought the fire of Gandalf for many hours. Were they afraid of fire this would be the encounter they would steer clear of – A servant of the Secret Fire and the Wielder of the Flame of Anor. The Witch-king had no fear of landing on the Pelennor which was all ablaze…
2. What took Strider so long? Why wasn’t he waving firebrands when the Nazgul first approached?
Good question:
Strider slipped aside for the old guerrilla sneak/surprise attack. “Hey there’s a Ranger here! Ware!”
Love your wraith picture…
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Feb 28 2015, 6:40pm
Post #3 of 44
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Fire apparently worked for Strider.
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Just a little while ago, Strider said, Sauron can put fire to his evil uses, as he can all things, but these Riders do not love it, and fear those who wield it.
The Nazgul appear to have been driven off by Strider leaping out of the darkness with a flaming brand of wood in either hand. You would think that had the Hobbits been similarly armed it would have helped.
Unless, of course, the Riders just left for one of the reasons Altaira cited.
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Feb 28 2015, 6:45pm)
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Felagund
Rohan
Feb 28 2015, 7:05pm
Post #4 of 44
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Sauron loses the War of the Ring at Weathertop?
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Whenever I re-read this passage, I can't help but feel that this was the biggest stuff-up committed by any of Sauron's servants. This was their best chance to seize the Ring / Ring-bearer, at a moment when help was furthest away. Alright, there's another confrontation at the Bruinen but by this time Glorfindel is on the scene and if Strider can drive off Nazgûl with burning brands then I don't see that situation as more dangerous. At every other point where Frodo is in real danger vs Sauron's minions, none of them actually know that he personally has the One Ring (Shagrat, Gorbag etc), and therefore Sauron is actually no closer to recovering his property. Arguably, the attack on Weathertop is as close as Sauron gets.
Admittedly, my comment ignores the very sound argument that Sauron probably didn't need to recover the One Ring to win the war - he just needed to make sure it didn't accidentally fall into a volcano, and let his armies grind down his heroic but outnumbered foes.
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Mar 1 2015, 5:47pm
Post #5 of 44
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Another one of those things that does badly out of "fridge logic" I think
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On first readings, the whole Black Rider pursuit is great 0 it has a wonderful nightmarish feel:
Pursued by enemies that you can't actually see (most of the time)
Don't know what those enemies are doing
They don't attack (all that much) when expected to at Bree. They DO attack (as you sort of think they will) at Weathertop. Now what are they doing? They are bound to try an head 'em off at the Ford
...and so on.
After more readings, one starts to think about the Riders' motivations etc. Then it's hard to see how what they do conforms to the orders one assumes they have been given: get the Ring as soon as possible, and at any cost.
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Mar 1 2015, 6:14pm
Post #6 of 44
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Q3 & 5: Swords and injuries. Elbereth! etc.
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5. Isn’t Frodo wielding one of the Barrow swords that worked so well for Merry against the same Witch King on the Pelennor Fields? Why didn’t it work here?
Since our heroes only find a slashed cloak, it's hard to know what damage Frodo has inflicted on his opponent. The language also is a bit ambiguous, but I think the most internally consistent thing is to assume that when Strider says:
'This was the stroke of Frodo's sword,' he said. 'The only hurt that it did to his enemy, I fear; for it is unharmed , but all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King'
..he means that, since Frodo's sword has not "perished", ergo he must have missed his target and just slashed the cloak. Presumably if his Barrow Blade had hit the Witch King it would have been just as injurious as Merry's Barrow Blade is later .And then it would have crumbled or burned or whatever, as Merry's does. What confused me in early readings is that precisely that burning of a blade does happen next - but it is the Nazgul blade that is disintegrating, not Frodo's. Easy to get confused (that's my excuse, anyway, having been confused). Having misread this bit earlier on, I was then puzzled about which sword Frodo uses at the Ford.
I don't remember finding the "Elbereth..." bit confusing on my first reading. I suppose I picked it up by sense. We already know, from Gildor's song, that it is a thing elves say. I don't recall inferring that it was a prayer or invocation, but I picked up the sense that these words could have some supernatural effect.
I had no idea (and still have no idea) exactly what that effect might be. But probably that's not too important, unless one wants to make a theory about why the Black Riders don't finish Frodo off on the spot.
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"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Mar 1 2015, 6:15pm)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Mar 1 2015, 9:00pm
Post #8 of 44
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... Or the words "Elbereth" etc. are painful to a Witch Kings ear?
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But you could be entirely right :)
Darn, I though I had it sorted out at last...
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Mar 1 2015, 11:14pm
Post #10 of 44
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Try reading that line with and without the comma. It's poetry, as is a lot of Tolkien's "prose". Longtime Reading Room guru Curious often formatted passages from LotR as poetry, and it really works:
There came Gwaihir the Windlord,
And Landroval his brother,
Greatest of all the Eagles of the North,
Mightiest of the descendants of old Thorondor,
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Mar 2 2015, 1:45am
Post #11 of 44
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There came Gwaihir the Windlord, and Landroval his brother, greatest of all the Eagles of the North, mightiest of the descendants of old Thorondor,…
Sorry, this is prose. “guru Curious” can play with words and sentences all he wants – this is not poetry. I find it hard to believe that Tolkien intended such. Yes, his prose is pure beauty, but we go toooo far…. We should accept this “pure beauty” for what it is IMHO.
If we use/change the sentence (into Capitalized single lines making it a stanza) then we could loosely (very loosely) call it poetry, as it has some (not much) rhythm but any semblance of “poetry” stops there.
There came Gwaihir the Windlord,
And Landroval his brother,
Greatest of all the Eagles of the North,
Mightiest of the descendants of old Thorondor,
(Second Stanza to finish the sentence)
Who built his eyries
In the inaccessible peaks
Of the Encircling Mountains
When Middle-earth was young.
Has some rhythm (not much) as does the first stanza.
Free verse Poetry or Prose?
(This post was edited by Bracegirdle on Mar 2 2015, 1:51am)
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a.s.
Valinor
Mar 2 2015, 4:10am
Post #12 of 44
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the Witch King felt terror at the name of Elbereth--and was in fear of Frodo. Yes, Frodo
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Tolkien is quoted by Hammond & Scull in LOTR Companion as writing the following in manuscript that became part of The Hunt for the Ring (ahem, as stated above, I don't own the entire HOME so rely on my trusty H&S--but I digress):
Re: the Witch King on Weathertop:
"He had been shaken by the fire of Gandalf, and began to perceive that the mission on which Sauron had sent him was one of great peril to himself both by the way, and on his return to his Master (if unsuccessful); and he had been doing ill, so far achieving nothing save rousing the power of the Wise and directing them to the Ring. But above all the timid and terrified Bearer had resisted him, had dared to strike at him with an enchanted sword made by his own enemies long ago for his destruction. Narrowly it had missed him. How had he come by it--save in the Barrows of Cardolan. Then he was in some way mightier than the B[arrow]-wight; and he called on Elbereth, a name of terror to the Nazgul. He was then in league with the High Elves of the Havens. [paragragh] Escaping a wound that would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor-knife to Frodo (as was proved at the end), he withdrew and hid for a while, out of doubt and fear both or Aragorn and especially of Frodo."
Those italics (Elbereth, fear, Frodo) are Tolkien's.
I think, then, the cry is the Witch King's and it's a cry of terror and fear.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"A safe fairyland is untrue to all worlds." JRR Tolkien, Letters.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Mar 2 2015, 6:52am
Post #13 of 44
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I am a negligent discussion leader for not consulting my own H&S! 
That passage you quote really explains a lot.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Mar 2 2015, 8:16am
Post #14 of 44
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I've never found that very convincing, myself
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On the one hand, the Witch King is capable of the doubt and fear that comes from the instinct for self-preservation. On the other, the Black Riders are supposed to be completely slaves to Sauron's will. I suppose I'm assuming that Sauron wouldn't care a hoot how many Riders he lost if only the survivors brought him the Ring. That seems a reasonable inference to me. As slaves of his will, the Riders shouldn't have any capacity for self-preservation if it conflicts with their orders, I'd have thought.
So something seems unexplained, if one tries to reconstruct a serious Account of the Riders' motives (as opposed to the funny one Elizabeth linked to earlier).
Am I missing something?
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Mar 2 2015, 10:56am
Post #15 of 44
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On the other hand, the weak point in my argument is...
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I suppose I'm assuming that Sauron wouldn't care a hoot how many Riders he lost if only the survivors brought him the Ring. That seems a reasonable inference to me. As slaves of his will, the Riders shouldn't have any capacity for self-preservation if it conflicts with their orders, I'd have thought.
...On the other hand, the weak point in my argument is that if you assume Sauron's orders DO allow for self-preservation, then this difficult mostly disappears. You could then assume that the Witch King is surprised by the resistance he gets at Weathertop, and most particularly that the Ringbearer seems to be in a state of grace (or whatever the state would be that allows him to say "Elbereth" and for it to hurt). You could then argue that the Black Riders think Frodo is as good as captured now he's wounded, and so there is no need to expose themselves to more "Elbereths" until he is sufficiently in their power that he's not so dangerous. By that argument it is another Witch King miscalculation (Frodo is more resistant than expected etc. ) rather than an impossible defiance of orders to get the Ring Now, No Matter What.
..hmmm: maybe it make a kind of sense after all?
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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BlackFox
Half-elven
Mar 2 2015, 12:00pm
Post #16 of 44
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I don't think it was meant to be taken quite as literally
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Like you, I doubt Tolkien was trying to sneak more poetry into the text by disguising it as prose (though, who knows). But there is no denying that his prose can be very poetical (isn't this what you mean by "pure beauty"?) at times. What we're dealing here is most likely a (semi-)subliminal expression of Tolkien's poet-self, his inherent fascination with and heightened attention to language, which is one of the main characteristics of poetry.
The passage in question is, imo, best qualified as prose poetry, a fusion of the two genres.
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a.s.
Valinor
Mar 2 2015, 12:31pm
Post #17 of 44
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invocation of Elbereth terrifies the evil, it doesn't necessarily "hurt"
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(or whatever the state would be that allows him to say "Elbereth" and for it to hurt).
I might be misinterpreting your statement here, but just want to point out that Tolkien says the invocation of Elbereth causes terror in the evil heart of the Witch King, and the cry we hear from him is one of terror, not pain. The knife didn't wound him.
So: how much of this is Tolkien "back filling" the storyline with an explanation, and how much of it is Tolkien working out the details while writing, I'll have to leave to someone who actually reads HOME and understands where that writing of Tolkien's that H&S quote actually occurred in the life of the book.
But I think, possibly, that the Witch King, despite any terror he may have felt here, is counting on the wound he inflicted on Frodo to take care of things, and if he hadn't successfully wounded him and counted on him becoming a Wraith and submitting sooner than later to the Darkness, Witchy might have fought a little harder to capture him at this point.
Also: in a poignant way, this episode marks an ending for Frodo, he's receiving a wound that will dog him all his life without pity, and will contribute in great measure to his leaving ME forever. We won't realize this for many chapters, but a re-reader knows.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"A safe fairyland is untrue to all worlds." JRR Tolkien, Letters.
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Mar 2 2015, 1:54pm
Post #18 of 44
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The pure beauty of Tolkien’s prose
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Yes, you could say that I meant “pure beauty” as being poetical in a very loose way.
If we are dealing with a “(semi-)subliminal expression of Tolkien’s poet-self”, with the sentence in question then he has made this particular sentence somewhat ambiguous with that darn (seemingly unnecessary) comma. Uh – just exactly who is “the greatest”? One or both brothers? I think any English teacher (my wife is a retired English teacher) would tell us if Tolkien meant both were greatest (which I’m sure he did) that that first comma is superfluous.
If subliminally Tolkien expressed his poet-self with this sentence he subliminally confounded this reader with extraneous punctuation….
But then, (comma) I tend to make your point, (comma), do I not (question mark)? 
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Mar 2 2015, 2:18pm
Post #19 of 44
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I had always thought the “shrill cry” was because of a “hit” by the barrow-blade of Frodo (see my prejudice on my discussion of Ch. 12). But the cry certainly could have been because of fear of the name of “Elbereth” AND the sudden knowledge that Frodo had struck with a barrow-blade.
This coupled with Aragorn’s attack and the knowledge that the Morgul-knife had begun its job could have been a motive for the Five to withdraw. (?)
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BlackFox
Half-elven
Mar 2 2015, 2:48pm
Post #20 of 44
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... but I don't find it to be a question of importance. The lyrical power of the sentence renders it irrelevant for me.
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Felagund
Rohan
Mar 2 2015, 5:09pm
Post #21 of 44
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an interesting passage from 'The Hunt for the Ring'
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There was definitely something exceptional about what went down at Weathertop. Your H&S excavation inspired me to re-read the 'Hunt for the Ring' chapter in Unfinished Tales, and text 'A' (which isn't contradicted by any of the other extant texts, on this point) has an interesting passage:
Night was waning on the twenty-second day of September when drawing together they [the Nazgûl] came to Sarn Ford and the southernmost borders of the Shire. They found them guarded, for the Rangers barred their way. But this was a task beyond even the power of the Dúnedain; and maybe it would still have proved so even if their captain, Aragorn, had been with them
In the ensuing skirmishes, the Dúnedain either flee or stick around and got a kicking. Fair enough, this was the Nine in full assemblage, compared to just the five who invested Weathertop. But even so, if Tolkien is casting doubt on whether the Dúnedain of the North plus Aragorn would be enough to stop the Nazgûl at Sarn Ford, then the face-off at Weathertop looks even more remarkable. Remarkable in that Aragorn plus four hobbits even survive, let alone drive off the Nazgûl, including the Lord of Morgul.
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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sador
Half-elven
Mar 2 2015, 5:58pm
Post #23 of 44
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So I've read the 'definitive' answer
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and don't find it convincing.
Or at least, I am convinced that even Tolkien realised he wrote a brilliant sequence, which does not stand to scrutiny. How many people used the name of Elbereth?
Let's add to the mix the fact that Gildor's blessing made Frodo wield the actual powers of Varda's priest (which I've argued several times before) - but both Elrond and Galadriel invoke her name, and I'm sure others do. Is it that deadly for the greatest servants of Sauron? Must he deal with every miserable enemy of his in person? Sheesh.
To say nothing of Shelob's being completely beyond the reach of such invocations...
No, I'm sorry; this doesn't quite work. And if JRRT couldn't make it work, than it really doesn't.
(Buit based on Strider's actions as you've described them in the previous two posts, it is comforting to know that he is up against such wimpish enemies...)
1. Why sticks, not swords? Why not lighted firebrands, since the Nazrul appear to fear fire?
For fear of accidents? It seems Strider does not quite trust the hobbits yet.
2. What took Strider so long? Why wasn’t he waving firebrands when the Nazgul first approached?
We do not quite know; but then the story ignores Strider, and focuses on Frodo.
For all we know, he might have been fighting with other Riders just beyond Frodo's vision, pretty much like in Jackson's film.
3. What is the first-time reader supposed to make of O Elbereth! Gilthoniel? In the story, did it help?!
I think I did connect it to Gildor - especially after both Tom and Strider mentioned him. But I can't remember for sure.
And it helped for sure - which means that people who admonish Gildor for not accompanying Frodo shoudl consider with which power he had invested him - a power that saved him (according to JRRT's later notes)! And this also must mean that Gildor himself was a pretty unique and poweful elf.
4. What’s your theory?
I remember suggesting once that for some reason, a wraith Frodo would be of more use to the Enemy than a dead one. And with a flame-wielding Strider around, and Gandalf not far away - perhaps despoiling a dead hobbit would not be so easy?
So they withdrew and patiently waited for Frod to fade. They didn't count on it taking so long - the grace of Elbereth, again?
5. Isn’t Frodo wielding one of the Barrow swords that worked so well for Merry against the same Witch King on the Pelennor Fields? Why didn’t it work here?
Did all the barrow-blades work so well against the Witch-king? I like to guess that only Merry's did, and it was luck, or fate, or Divine intervention which made the hobbit that will end up riding behind Eowyn pick that one sword.
In the next chapter we shall see that the Witch king can break Frodo's sword from afar. Could he do that to Merry's sword as well?
But on the other hand, Ugluk dropped boith Pippin and Merry's swords as if they scorched him - so they were retrieved by Aragorn. Does this indicate that Pippin's sword was special, too? And why didn't Ugluk order one of the junior orcs to dispose of the swords in a better way? It seems that his negligence was very fortunate...
Two last points:
1) Frodo did not even touck the Witch-king with his sword - as it still stayed whole.
2) The Men of Arnor must have considered the Barrow-blades as knives. Just like the Morgul-blade - which the Witch-king used, rather than his sword (a further support of my theory above). Is there something about knives which makes them hold more potent magic?
Thank you, Elizabeth, for leading us this week!
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Mar 2 2015, 6:49pm
Post #24 of 44
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Not a question of supreme importance, just of triviality.
And I’m through “rendering” (too much lard and tallow – yuck  )
the “lyrical power of the sentence”.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Mar 2 2015, 8:00pm
Post #25 of 44
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I find this a very weak part of the book no matter how much I try to rationalize it. The Nazgul, even if frightened, could be reasonably expected to withdraw from the encounter but still keep an eye on things. To have them disappear completely doesn't make sense. They were first frightened by Gandalf in his wrath during the day, then closed in on him and surrounded him at night, when their power was greater, and that was a draw. They then withdrew enough the next day to allow him to escape, but he wasn't their main target anyway, and they knew they couldn't beat him easily.
The Ring-bearer WAS their main target. Why not withdraw, while you have horses and the hobbits don't, keep an eye on the hill, and follow at a distance until you get your nerve again? And they certainly showed no hesitation in attacking Frodo again at the Ford of Bruinen, and that was after being chased off the bridge earlier by Glorfindel, so they knew there was a Hero-Elf around.
It goes back to plot mechanics: the Nazgul need to attack at some point, or else they're just harmless stalkers. Frodo needs a horrible wound. The rest of the journey needs to be perilous and no picnic. So, we get this illogical event to satisfy the necessities of suspense and story construction, IMO.
PS. I'm left wondering if the Barrow-blade is effective just against the Witch-king, or is it all-purpose against all Nazgul?
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