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Bladerunner
Gondor
Feb 28 2015, 4:01am
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Tragic death of the elves in the Silmarillion.
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The Silmarillion is a very dark, often melancholy work filled with characters who suffer much loss while struggling against personal and collective adversity in an imperfect world.
What becomes striking is that, with the exception of a few elves such as Cirdan, Galadriel, Celeborn, Thranduil and Elrond, much of the leadership of the elves in the Silmarillion met with tragic deaths.
(I suppose when you are nearly immortal, and are genetically predisposed to not die of old age, the odds of you dying from something other than natural causes increases significantly).
Interestingly, the balrog Gothmog seems to have been directly responsible for more deaths than both Morgoth and Sauron.
And most tragic of all is that kin-strife appears to be the primary cause of deaths among the leadership of the Eldar.
I know this is a rather morbi topic, but I was interested in reading other peoples take on the subject.
Several examples are provided in the subsequent messages.
(This post was edited by Bladerunner on Feb 28 2015, 4:14am)
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Bladerunner
Gondor
Feb 28 2015, 4:04am
Post #2 of 32
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Killed by Melkor in Formenos (YT 1495)
But even as Nienna mourned, there came messengers from Formenos, and they were Noldor and bore new tidings of evil. For they told how a blind Darkness came northward, and in the midst walked some power for which there was no name, and the Darkness issued from it. But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood n the Blessed Realm, for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark. And they told that Melkor had broken the stronghold of Formenos, and taken all the jewels of the Noldor that were hoarded in that place, and the Silmarils were gone.
The Silmarillion
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Bladerunner
Gondor
Feb 28 2015, 4:06am
Post #3 of 32
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Killed by orcs (YT 1497)
But the victory of the Elves was dear-bought. For those of Ossiriand were light-armed, and no match for the Orcs, who were shod with iron and iron-shielded and bore great spears with broad blades; and Denethor was cut off and surrounded upon the hill of Amon Ereb. There he fell and all his nearest kin about him, before the host of Thingol could come to his aid. Bitterly though his fall was avenged, when Thingol came upon the rear of the Orcs and slew them in heaps, his people lamented him ever after and took no king again.
The Silmarillion
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Bladerunner
Gondor
Feb 28 2015, 4:08am
Post #4 of 32
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Killed by Gothmog at Angband during Dagor-nuin-Giliath (YT 1497)
"Thus it was that he drew far ahead of the van of his host; and seeing this the servants of Morgoth turned to bay, and there issued from Angband Balrogs to aid them. There upon the confines of Dor Daedeloth, the land of Morgoth, Fëanor was surrounded, with few friends about him. Long he fought on, and undismayed, though he was wrapped in fire and wounded with many wounds; but at the last he was smitten to the ground by Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs, whom Ecthelion after slew in Gondolin."
The Silmarillion
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Bladerunner
Gondor
Feb 28 2015, 4:12am
Post #5 of 32
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Killed by Gothmog during Nirnaeth Arnoediad (FA 472)
"Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs, high-captain of Angband, was come; and he drove a dark wedge between the Elvenhosts, surrounding King Fingon, and thrusting Turgon and Hurin aside towards the Fen of Serech. Then he turned upon Fingon. That was a grim meeting. At last Fingon stood alone with his guard dead about him; and he fought with Gothmog, until another Balrog came behind and cast a thong of fire about him. Then Gothmog hewed him with his black axe, and a white flame sprang up from the helm of Fingon as it was cloven. Thus fell the High King of the Noldor; and they beat him into the dust with their maces, and his banner, blue and silver, they trod into the mire of his blood."
The Silmarillion
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Bladerunner
Gondor
Feb 28 2015, 4:22am
Post #6 of 32
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Killed By Morgoth at Anfauglith (FA 456)
"Now news came to Hithlum that Dorthonion was lost and the sons of Finarfin overthrown, and that the sons of Fëanor were driven from their lands. Then Fingolfin beheld (as it seemed to him) the utter ruin of the Noldor, and the defeat beyond redress of all their houses; and filled with wrath and despair he mounted upon Rochallor his great horse and rode forth alone, and none might restrain him. He passed over Dor-nu-Fauglith like a wind amid the dust, and all that beheld his onset fled in amaze, thinking that Oromë himself was come: for a great madness of rage was upon him, so that his eyes shone like the eyes of the Valar. Thus he came alone to Angband's gates, and he sounded his horn, and smote once more upon the brazen doors, and challenged Morgoth to come forth to single combat. And Morgoth came.
......
Then Morgoth hurled aloft Grond, the Hammer of the Underworld, and swung it down like a bolt of thunder. But Fingolfin sprang aside, and Grond rent a mighty pit in the earth, whence smoke and fire darted. Many times Morgoth essayed to smite him, and each time Fingolfin leaped away, as a 'lightning shoots from under a dark cloud; and he wounded Morgoth with seven wounds, and seven times Morgoth gave a cry of anguish, whereat the hosts of Angband fell upon their faces in dismay, and the cries echoed in the Northlands.
But at the last the King grew weary, and Morgoth bore down his shield upon him. Thrice he was crushed to his knees, and thrice arose again and bore up his broken shield and stricken helm. But the earth was all rent and pitted about him, and he stumbled and fell backward before the feet of Morgoth; and Morgoth set his left foot upon his neck, and the weight of it was like a fallen hill. Yet with his last and desperate stroke Fingolfin hewed the foot with Ringil, and the blood gashed forth black and smoking and filled the pits of Grond.
Thus died Fingolfin, High King of the Noldor, most proud and valiant of the Elven-kings of old. The Orcs made no boast of that duel at the gate; neither do the Elves sing of it, for their sorrow is too deep."
The Silmarillion
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Felagund
Rohan
Feb 28 2015, 12:56pm
Post #7 of 32
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Finrod, oath-keeper, doomed to die
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Morbid, tragic but well worth discussing.
One of the most tragic deaths among the Eldar for me is the passing of Finrod in I.465. He had foreseen his own death and the destruction of his own kingdom but did not try to avoid either (The Sil):
Now King Finrod Felagund had no wife, and Galadriel asked him why this should be; but foresight came upon Felagund as she spoke, and he said: 'An oath I too shall swear, and I must be free to fulfil it, and go into darkness. Nor shall anything of my realm endure that a son should inherit.'
Although light on detail, this is Finrod foreseeing his own death in the bloody darkness of Tol-in-Gaurhoth's pits, rent by a werewolf. And through his sacrifice he redeemed his oath to the House of Bëor. The oath in question was, of course, that sworn 10 years earlier to Barahir during the disaster of the Dagor Bragollach, when Barahir saved Finrod's life:
... but he [Finrod] swore an oath of abiding friendship and aid in every need to Barahir and all his kin, and in token of his vow he gave to Barahir his ring
And thus the remorseless course of events: Beren comes to Nargothrond to call in Finrod's debt.
But Finrod heard his [Beren's] tale in wonder and disquiet; and he knew that the oath he had sworn was come upon him for his death, as long before he had foretold to Galadriel.
Yet still he sets out with Beren on the Quest for the Silmarils, even though he had been forsaken by the vast majority of his own people in the process.
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
(This post was edited by Felagund on Feb 28 2015, 1:04pm)
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Felagund
Rohan
Feb 28 2015, 1:03pm
Post #8 of 32
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Thingol, haughty to outsiders to the end
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Killed in his own halls at the hands of the Dwarves of Nogrod (I.502)
Then the lust of the Dwarves was kindled to rage by the words of the King; and they rose up about him, and laid hands on him, and slew him as he stood. So died in the deep places of Menegroth Elwë Singollo, King of Doriath, who alone of all the Children of Ilúvatar ws joined with one of the Ainur; and he who, alone of the Forsaken Elves, had seen the light of the Trees of Valinor, with his last sight gazed upon the Silmaril
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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Bladerunner
Gondor
Mar 1 2015, 12:34am
Post #9 of 32
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Yes, Finrod's was probably the most poignant of all of the tragic deaths among the Eldar.
And Felagund seeing that he was forsaken took fom his head the silver crown of Nargothrond and cast it at his feet saying: 'Your oaths of faith to me you may break, but I must hold my bond. .... Then Felagund gave the crown of Nargothrond to Orodreth his brother to govern in his stead; and Celegorm and Curufin said nothing, but they smiled and went from the halls.
The elves loved to swear oaths, and to keep them no matter the consequences.
In this instance, Finrod's death was a product of three intertwining oaths (Finrod's oath to Barahir, Thingol's oath to Beren, and of course the oath between Feanor and his sons) that also set in motion the destruction of both hidden kingdoms of Nargothrond and Doriath.
In the pits of Sauron Beren and Felagund lay, an all their companions wer now dead; but Sauron purposed to keep Felagund to the last, for he perceived that he was a Noldo of great might and wisdom, and he deemed that in him lay the secret of their errand. But when the wolf came for Beren, Felagund put forth all his power and burst his bonds; and he wrestled with the werewolf, and slew it with his hands and teeth; yet he himself was wounded to the death. ..... He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the house of Finwë, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair.
The Silmarillion
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ElendilTheShort
Gondor
Mar 2 2015, 6:13am
Post #10 of 32
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is the last leader of the exiles alive at the end of the Silmarillion. It is a very sad tale.
So many horrible events are described above. With relatively few words in each case, Tolkien masterfully describes the power, heroism and often monstrously brutal outcomes of these encounters, which adds to the terrible tragedy of each one.
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Nerven
Rivendell
Mar 2 2015, 2:14pm
Post #11 of 32
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But in the end it´s not so sad at all, the most of them would be rehoused and live peacefully in Valinor.
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Mar 2 2015, 6:35pm
Post #12 of 32
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He is one of the characters whose death truly saddened me
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His role, even without the prescient vision (a feature I have somehow over-looked 'til now) engaged me at once.
Now that I know of it, it seems strange to me that such a one would not attempt to alter his fate. In this, he almost parallels Frodo who goes forward with no promise of return, as well as a relative guarantee of death. I am also reminded of Huan, 'fated' to speak three times before death and fall before the greatest wolf that ever lived. Thirdly, I am reminded of the tragic role of Paul Atreides' in his inescapable fate from the work Dune Messiah by Frank Herbert. I know I'm rambling, so I'll get to the point.
This all interests me in the fact of the role of 'fate', the possibility of foreknowledge, their effects on the lives of people, and the potential for change or modification by those 'fated' ones. In the cases of Finrod, Frodo, and Huan, they seem to have lived on in acceptance of their fate, never cringing from it. If I consider them as people, apart from their character roles, I can only imagine the stress and fear that must have assailed and threatened to bring them down. I want to know what kept them going forward. Duty? Honour? Resignation? I think this mystery is what makes them so appealing to me as I wonder what I might do instead.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Mar 2 2015, 6:40pm
Post #13 of 32
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It would seem that Fingolfin's grand feat left no great visible imprint in the culture of Orcs or Elves. No songs were sung, stories shared, or boasts made, but for all that lack, it is said that his valour cowed Morgoth, and the injury inflicted gave him pause and trouble.
As a reader, we might celebrate Fingolfin's courage and bravery, but in the context of Middle-Earth, is there someone who would do the same? There is no Elven poetry detailing his tragic end, and no lay composed to tell the tale. Has he been forgotten in Arda? Is he a forgotten hero, or silently remembered in sorrow? What would he say about his own legacy?
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Mar 2 2015, 6:45pm
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I'm tempted to say that he brought it on himself, but that would be a gross simplification. His courage and passion cannot be doubted, though, and even as he veered from the path of a hero, I think we can at least understand, if not respect, his manic drive. I find it interesting that it is noted that he was avenged and his efforts not completely wasted. Morgoth would have had to have been dealt with at some point; Feanor simply took up role as his first opponent. Not in a purely self-less cause, but still...
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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ElendilTheShort
Gondor
Mar 2 2015, 7:01pm
Post #15 of 32
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the whole point is that the feat was so great
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that the enemy dare not mention it for fear and for the elves the tragedy too great to sing about. That is the impact of this confrontation, it remains like no other in the entire histories of Arda. Sometimes in a role call or list the last name is the most honoured, such is the outcome of this event, it is too great to talk about for all parties but for differing reasons.
Imagine the fear the war cry of "Fingolfin", in memory of him and this fight, would strike into the hearts of orcs and demons alike. The name is never mentioned after his battle with Morgoth and then all of a sudden the black hordes have legions of wrathful Noldor coming at them yelling this out. Remember in mythology a lot of stock is placed in peoples names, and his may have become a rallying point for the foes of Morgoth.
(This post was edited by ElendilTheShort on Mar 2 2015, 7:02pm)
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Felagund
Rohan
Mar 3 2015, 5:10pm
Post #16 of 32
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Killed by his own BFF, the arch-sociopath and walking time bomb, Túrin:
But as he [Túrin] stood, finding himself free, and ready to sell his life dearly against imagined foes, there came a great flash of lightning above them; and in its light he looked down on Beleg's face. Then Túrin stood stonestill and silent, staring on that dreadful death, knowing what he had done... Thus ended Beleg Strongbow, truest of friends, greatest in skill of all that harboured in the woods of Beleriand in the Elder Days, at the hand of him whom he most loved...
(The Silmarillion)
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Mar 3 2015, 5:31pm
Post #17 of 32
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Yes, I think Fingolfin's duel with Morgoth was definitely remembered by the Elves
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They may not sing about it, but I get the feeling that it's a story that's definitely remembered and told to Elf-children. I don't have any reference to prove that, I just think it's too important for anyone to forget. So it's remembered in prose but not in poetry.
If I think about it, there may not be any songs sung in Middle-earth about Morgoth & Ungoliant killing the Two Trees, but that event would be remembered as well and taught to Elflings (as a horrible one, rather than an honorable one).
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Mar 3 2015, 5:40pm
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It's been a LONG time since I read the Dune books, but if I remember correctly, Paul felt he was stuck in a timeline of fate that he didn't have any control over, stuck in a scientific sort of way.
I think Frodo and Finrod felt more stuck in fate in a metaphysical way, that fate was in control of them, and they couldn't resist it, or that to try to turn aside from it could lead to a worse fate. I think honor & duty were involved too, but I think there was more of a helpless feeling, like when you slide on a patch of ice and think, "Okay, I'm going down, and that's just what's going to happen." Your thoughts don't usually turn to things like, "Now would be a great time for me to have an anti-gravity belt."
Tolkien's view of fate seemed in line with the old story of Appointment at Samarra, where someone hopes to escape death only to run right into it. Turin was never able to escape fate, no matter how hard he tried.
I think in the 21st century, there's a lot more skepticism about fate than there was in the Middle Ages, and people feel like they have more control over their lives. Getting sick isn't a sign of the devil or certain doom; you can often be treated by drugs and surgery and get better. Your parents don't arrange your marriage when you're a child; you pick your spouse as an adult. You don't spend your life on the same farm that the last 10 generations of your family did. I think we challenge the idea much more now than people did historically because we have a lot more say in shaping our destiny.
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HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell
Mar 4 2015, 1:52am
Post #19 of 32
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This was so funny LOL... Of all the characters in Silmarillion, I find Turin to be the most fascinating. Was his behavior caused by the curse, or was the curse his behavior?
Might makes Right!
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HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell
Mar 4 2015, 1:57am
Post #20 of 32
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To me is that the accursed Noldor bring tragedy to the other Elves. How many Elves die at the hands of the Noldor?
In the history of Middle Earth, did any other group Elves fight their other kin? We know the Noldor unjustly started battles with the Teleri, with the exiles of Gondolin and in Doriath. But do we have any other account of Elves fighting Elves, say for instance the Sindar fighting the Nandor.
So the three kin-slayings are the only Elf-on-Elf battles. And even outside of the kin-slayings, in great Elf that got entwined with the Noldor ended dead...
Might makes Right!
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Mar 4 2015, 3:08pm
Post #21 of 32
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As I understood it, Paul saw that as he peered into the future, he was limited in how far ahead he could see, and he saw 'fate' as the limits that the universe imposed upon the future-- a sort of impersonal determinism. Thus, as time developed linearly in a close-ended universe, his choices, as he made them, became ever more constrictive. He had an ideal future that he strove for, and at the beginning, there were many paths to choose from. He found that as he began to travel down them, there were gradually less and less that took him into the direction he desired. Limited in vision and unable to change the past, he became limited in his choices, and they eventually came to two evil ends, of which he chose what he perceived to be the lesser.
Good thoughts on 'fate'!
I must admit, my interest is more of a personal sort, and what might happen if someone I knew, (or I, myself) were given such a prophetic revelation. Of course, the value of such pondering is decided by the fact whether you think such an occurrence possible. If so, it might lead you to ask what you would have done, or would do. If not, you might just come to realise that it is interesting, but pointless to fantasise about yourself put in an impossible situation. I think that, in the end, that we even consider the probability of such events happening to us, is a mark of good story-telling-- we have identified with the character.
Now, we've talked A LOT about Turin, so I won't be long, but I tend to think that some of his 'fate' was self-determined. He brought his problems upon himself, in some part, and changing environs was not enough to solve his psychological issues. I hadn't heard the story of the Appointment at Samarra in regards to Turin, but it does illustrate the sort of determinist fate that a prophecy might conjure in our minds. For Turin more so, however, his actions might have precipitated his fate. Like the merchant who fled to the place of his death, his own choices determined his place for meeting Death. So, in a way, he set his own fate.
Perhaps another way to see this 'fate' is one that is a natural consequence of our own tendencies and traits, and that to 'change' our fate we must change or master ourselves, and that 'fate' is only determined to be as inscrutable to us as our own self-knowledge and self-mastery?
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Mar 4 2015, 3:11pm
Post #22 of 32
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We've talked A LOT about Turin's fate...
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If you ever have hours to kill, you can go back into our last Silmarillion discussion and Children of Hurin read-through. I recall threads of fantastic length, but full of great examples and insight. It's just one of those topics like Balrog wings, the Ring's sentience, and the reason to go to Weathertop, that cause long discussion and debate.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Mar 4 2015, 7:35pm
Post #23 of 32
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Prophetic Revelations on a personal level
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Have you ever read Stephen King's "The Dead Zone?" I thought it dealt pretty well with the struggle of what do you do when you are given a personal glimpse of the future, in this case meeting a minor politician who is destined to become the next Hitler. (And the protagonist has enough other prophetic visions of a smaller sort that he's certain he's seeing the future.) He struggles with the moral idea that if you could prevent another World War 2 and Holocaust by killing Hitler when he was still basically a nobody, shouldn't you do it to prevent the death of millions? But really, most of us aren't killers, so actually acting on that moral duty by committing an immoral act (murder) isn't easy, even figuring out the logistics.
Back to Tolkien: I think his characters take their personal revelations seriously, or the ones given to them. (Like Galadriel telling Aragorn to seek the Paths of the Dead, though he'd already thought about it. Then again, Aragorn warned Gandalf against entering Moria, and Gandalf went anyway--not out of folly or pride, but because he saw no other choice.)
I think in pondering the characters' dilemmas, we clarify our own values, even if no one is ever going to slip the One Ring into our palm and tell us to go destroy it. Would I do what Frodo did in my real life, leaving behind home, family, and friends for many months for some perilous and iffy quest? I dunno. But thinking about it is a good exercise. If I wouldn't do that, what would I do for the Cause of Good?
On more specific things, I find the pondering doesn't help, because it assumes a clean slate. Example: what would I do if there were a car accident? Would I stand around and let other people try to save the victims, or would I be the one pulling bodies from burning vehicles? I had wondered that, then a few years ago I was near a car accident in the mountains while hiking. And I was tired, had a headache, and had had a small argument with the girlfriend I was hiking with. Then there was an accident nearby, and I was not in any frame of mind to play hero or to just stand and stare, so we joined the small group of other people at the rest stop and helped in small ways but did nothing dramatic. It all worked out, but I realized after the "what would you do?" scenarios we have always assume our mind is a clean slate and we're sitting in a Decision Chair ready to decide, not that something happy or sad is on our minds, or we're late to work, or a little light-headed because we're on vacation and not taking things seriously, or a million other things.
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PhantomS
Rohan
Mar 4 2015, 11:41pm
Post #24 of 32
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It was not the Noldor as a whole involved in Middle Earth's kin-slaying or even the one in Alqualonde- it was the Sons of Feanor and their followers as well as part of Fingolfin's host at the ships. The ones led by Finarfin's children were very welcome and played their parts in the great legends of the Silmarillion- Galadriel, Orodreth and Finrod etc.
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Mar 5 2015, 3:31am
Post #25 of 32
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my favorite....
a fine example of Tolkien's tendency to write Immortals who give up their lives for Mortals (often on seemingly foolish quests).
Named a boat after him once....
Na 'Aear, na 'Aear! Mýl 'lain nallol, I sûl ribiel a i falf 'loss reviol...
To the sea, to the sea, the white gulls are crying, the wind is blowing and the white foam is flying...
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