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cats16
Half-elven
Feb 27 2015, 9:12pm
Post #26 of 92
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It seems my family sees gold and white, too.
"It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going onto the Internet. You step into social media, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to."
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cats16
Half-elven
Feb 27 2015, 9:23pm
Post #28 of 92
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And it's even worse due to how unavoidable the story has been. It's one thing if I need to veer away from Twitter for awhile, but when everyone is talking about it, I go to my room and read. 
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Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
Feb 27 2015, 9:31pm
Post #29 of 92
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I have to catch up on my FOTR reading for the Reading Room anyway! 
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cats16
Half-elven
Feb 27 2015, 9:34pm
Post #30 of 92
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I'm so behind on that discussion. I've deliberately not clicked into the RR--over 1100 posts waiting...
But hey, over the holidays I read through FOTR, so I'm there in spirit. 
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Brethil
Half-elven
Feb 27 2015, 10:10pm
Post #31 of 92
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*lays down trail of catnip and Oreos leading to Reading Room...* //
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I'm so behind on that discussion. I've deliberately not clicked into the RR--over 1100 posts waiting...
*hopes Riven Delve likes Oreos as well...*
(This post was edited by Brethil on Feb 27 2015, 10:14pm)
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cats16
Half-elven
Feb 27 2015, 11:37pm
Post #33 of 92
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Either I've made my love of Oreos quite clear in the past, or you happened to guess correctly. Either way I'm happy.
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Brethil
Half-elven
Feb 28 2015, 12:24am
Post #34 of 92
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*hastily puts Palantir away* Just a guess, m'dear! //
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cats16
Half-elven
Feb 28 2015, 12:36am
Post #35 of 92
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Dame Ioreth
Tol Eressea
Feb 28 2015, 2:25am
Post #36 of 92
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I finally saw a picture that helped
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me understand how each side could see two totally different things.
I saw the image as the one on the far right (white gold). Others see the far left (blue/black). Seeing the mid color image makes me able to see how I could see the original as white/gold. My eye for some reason picked up a washed out version of the image. interestingly, my husband saw the same as I did (white/gold) but my daughter saw light blue/gold, a mid grade image.
It's really cool how it works. http://www.cnn.com/...lue-dress/index.html
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Feb 28 2015, 3:29am
Post #37 of 92
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Wired magazine explains it all for you.
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Here.
But I marked "Other" because it looks blue and gold to me.
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Starling
Half-elven
Feb 28 2015, 4:31am
Post #38 of 92
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Do you think the one on the right looks white?
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It still looks blue to me, just a lighter blue than the two images on the left.
This thing has really puzzled me - it still baffles me that anyone could have thought that dress was white, even though I have read the explanations.
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Dame Ioreth
Tol Eressea
Feb 28 2015, 4:40am
Post #39 of 92
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It looks like white looks in the shade.
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as if it wasn't lit well. I blame my art student daughter who's always talking about tone and shade and hue and saturation and light... I never thought about all the terms describing color.
My youngest daughter said the original image looks like light blue and gold. But when I look at it I see poorly lit white and gold.
It was only when I saw the three images together that I could see why there were so many opinions. It depends on how your eye picks up the saturation of color - kind of like when a copier is running out of toner...
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal
Feb 28 2015, 7:09pm
Post #40 of 92
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I find this utterly fascinating, because I've sat side-by-side with someone at the same monitor and they see black where I see gold. Changing positions doesn't change it. It really is a different perception.
Here's something I wrote up for facebook:
Here's what I'm starting to find really fascinating about the whole "dress" thing: people's reactions to it. Each time a scientific article appears on it, the comments fill up with things like "can we just drop this stupid thing now?" "Who cares?"
My hypothesis: this is a fundamentalist reaction. Fundamentalism (religious, political, etc.) sees a question as having one right answer. But there's no right answer to the dress question (I understand that the original dress is blue and black. I'm talking about the photograph. Two people looking at the same photograph on the same screen will see two radically different things).
What's so interesting about it is that it points out vividly that we really do perceive the same thing in different ways. People who are invested in being "right" (I'm not immune from that, believe me) find it disturbing and want it to go away. Other people find it fascinating. I understand that to some people broccoli tastes bitter, but to me it tastes sweet. It's not a matter of being right or wrong.
And it's not about the dress. I have no interest in fashion, so that's not the source of my fascination.
And on a meta level, I now seem to be invested in getting people to understand my point of view on the whole thing :-D
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Magpie
Immortal
Feb 28 2015, 8:24pm
Post #41 of 92
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I totally get your point of view
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if by "point of view" you're talking about the meta-view on the debate of this issue.
The Mister and I were talking about this just last night. I could care less about the dress but this has been fascinating as a social and science standpoint. It's science in that - if two people looking at the exact same picture see two different colors, there must be some science involved in terms of eyes and brains (processing, not logical).
And science/technology since there's a certain amount of consideration that much be paid to monitor settings, etc.
But social in terms of how the discussion takes place. And yes, some refuse to admit there may be more than one answer or, if not exactly refusing to admit it, are totally freaked out by it.
If only more and more people realized that there are lots of 'right' answers depending on how we define 'right.'
I think some people are bored by the science and bored by sociological observation. Frankly, I think some people are just not motivated to think in any manner. But that's a different subject. :-)
I linked to a short piece on a radio program (This American Life) that examined the conversation about this optical illusion created by a professor at MIT and put on the internet.
Are squares A and B the same color? They are. Exactly the same color and the viewer/reader is told this upfront.
The radio program discussed the reaction of people:since this graphic is on the internet, there's a comments section. And you might think, what would you possibly comment on, right? It doesn't seem like there's anything really here to discuss. Gray is gray.
[..]when you scroll down through the comments, people do find a way to disagree-- even about this. And maybe you've been on the internet, they like to curse about it.
One person writes, what a load of [BLEEP]. They are different colors. Another writes, not the same [BLEEP] shade. Says a third, not convinced.
Then people start in with advice. And at first, they're super nice about it. They're trying to be helpful. They tell the doubters to take their fingers and cover over everything but the two gray squares on their screen. And they'll see they are the same color.
Several people suggested that they can open up the file in Photoshop or MS Paint and use the dropper tool to see the exact RGB values of the colors. And they'll see that they're the same-- by the way, 120-120-120 with 160 hue, 113 lume.
After all of that, somebody still writes, the second square looks brighter to me. Somebody else replies, it's definitely brighter than you. People start calling each other stupid, which, of course, leads to the kind of big, over broad sweeping statement you see in comments sections everywhere.
Quote, "If after reading this thread you refuse to actually test it and choose to stick with your dogmatic belief, then you are everything that is wrong with America."
The thing is, they do look different. I did open it up in Photoshop to check. (see below). The I called The Mister in and he refused to believe they were the same till I showed him in Photoshop (and even then he might have been distrustful, wondering if I was using some sleight of hand to trick him with Photoshop commands or something).
But I guess the experiment is: what is the process by which we approach this and what choices do we have at each step:
If we're told something is true by 'someone'. Do we believe or question? Do we verify using other sources? If so, what are our other sources? Do we find a way to conduct our own test of veracity? How much do we allow ourselves to accept an answer that is different than our initial assumption/belief?
That last comment above doesn't sound all that off, 'if after reading this thread (the one in the radio program) you refuse to actually test it and choose to stick with your dogmatic belief, then you are everything that is wrong with X' That commenter said America but that's not the point I want to make nor argue here. The point I'd like to make is, that to refuse to 'test' after being given reasons to question is 'wrong'.
Here's the test. I have a very slight drop shadow on the square I'm moving just to let you see the edges on all but the last image. The drop shadow is not a trick and if someone demands to see the same thing without the drop shadow, I'll prepare it for you.
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal
Feb 28 2015, 9:05pm
Post #42 of 92
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I cut my teeth on optical illusions like that from a very young age, so maybe I tend to be more open to testing the results because of that.
My first inclination when I heard the dress thing was to get somebody else to look at my monitor with me so I could test the thing for myself. And I was delighted when they disagreed with me because it meant something really interesting was going on. And luckily, those people also thought it was interesting.
(This post was edited by Aunt Dora Baggins on Feb 28 2015, 9:06pm)
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal
Feb 28 2015, 9:09pm
Post #43 of 92
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The one on the left still looks blue and gold to me.
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It is really cool how it works. I find this whole thing utterly fascinating.
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal
Feb 28 2015, 9:24pm
Post #44 of 92
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A facebook friend had studied this kind of thing in grad school:
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Here's what he said: 'I studied computer vision in grad school. A lot of that was studying human vision system. And the annoying truth is how screwy and flawed it is. No one likes hearing our eyes may be less than perfect. But yeah this dress thing reinforced that.
This was actually a repeat of an argument we had in our vision class. Myself and a fellow classmate were arguing over color of a skittle. Teacher explained based on gender you have different # of cones and rods in eyes, and that can impact color perception. Since then, I'm never that vehement about "the correct way to see."'
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Kim
Valinor
Feb 28 2015, 10:00pm
Post #45 of 92
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I find this really interesting. I thought the dress phenomena was due to different people looking at it with different monitors/angles etc, but didn't realize there were some people looking at the exact same image and seeing different colors (even in one of the news videos, the guy was holding a tablet at varying angles/lighting, so I thought that might account for it).
As for the optical illusion below, upon first glance, the colors look totally different to me, but your step-by-step graphics, ending with the drop shadow overlapping both squares, does help me see it. I never realized what people see could be so different, except for people who are color blind. This also makes me think of the discussions here about the color palette of the Hobbit movies, CGI and HFR. I kept wondering if it was the differences in people's eyes that were contributing to the differences in how they saw the movies. It certainly seems so as there are some visuals that others have commented on that I just don't see the same way. As our friend Spock would say, "fascinating".
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Starling
Half-elven
Feb 28 2015, 10:51pm
Post #46 of 92
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Ooh, that is a very interesting thought
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about the colour palette and other visual aspects of the Hobbit movies, and people's differing perceptions of them.
In regard to the dress, a friend of mine was getting very ranty on facebook and telling people about all the 'important' stories they were missing while discussing the dress. Actually, I think he missed the very interesting ideas and conversations that 'the dress' led to, such as Magpie's fascinating post above.
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Arandiel
Grey Havens
Feb 28 2015, 11:27pm
Post #47 of 92
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Ditto Kim and dernwyn - I suspect the lighting...//
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Brethil
Half-elven
Mar 1 2015, 12:13am
Post #48 of 92
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This is fascinating, but I think I am broken
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as even if I cover all but the A and B squares, B looks lighter to me. I even just covered all but the corners and compared them... I can't make it work.  Or I guess I can't see past it for some reason. I spent the afternoon trying.
(This post was edited by Brethil on Mar 1 2015, 12:14am)
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Mar 1 2015, 12:23am
Post #49 of 92
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Although I can believe that technically they are the same color, I can't see it. This leads me to conclude that a strong part of my color perception (which according to most tests is very good) is based on contrast and context. I can't see it, because I'm seeing it in contrast to its neighboring squares and I can't turn that off. Even in the overlapping picture, it appears to me as if the color fades from light to dark within the square. Fascinating.
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Brethil
Half-elven
Mar 1 2015, 12:25am
Post #50 of 92
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Even in the overlapping picture, it appears to me as if the color fades from light to dark within the square. Fascinating.
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