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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Feb 24 2015, 6:41am
Post #1 of 26
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**LotR: Fellowship of the Ring, 11.2 A Really, Really Bad Morning **
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Meanwhile, in Bree, Frodo has another dream:
Frodo soon went to sleep again; but his dreams were again troubled with the noise of wind and of galloping hoofs. The wind seemed to be curling round the house and shaking it; and far off he heard a horn blowing wildly.
This is the third and last of Frodos dreams that are described in detail. As Altaira observed, back in 2002:
* All of Frodos dreams are of real events.
* Frodos first dream was of the future, the second of the past, and this one in Bree was about the present (or, at least, the very recent Buckland past).
* Other than Faramir and Boromir, Frodo is the only character whose dreams are revealed to us (even in ROTK, when the narrative turns to Sams point of view).
* All three of Frodos dreams occurred during this beginning phase of his journey
Most curiously, the second dream is about Gandalf, imprisoned in Orthanc. But that was weeks ago: Gandalf escaped from Orthanc back on September 18, long before Frodo even left Bag End!
1. What is Tolkien conveying to us in these dreams?
2. In particular, what is the point of dreaming about Gandalf imprisoned in Orthanc several weeks ago?
The Hobbits were supposed to wake early to set off for Rivendell. But they wake to a series of horrible discoveries:
* Their assigned rooms have been raided, the bolsters left in the beds slashed, and the rooms generally trashed.
* Worse yet, the ponies are all missing indeed, there are no horses or ponies left in town except for one broken-down nag belonging to the disreputable Bill Ferny.
3. Who dunnit? In the movies, it was clearly Black Riders. However, many book fans argue this is more the style of Ferny and the local ruffians. What do you think, and why?
Faced with all this bad news, Strider sat silent for a while, looking at the hobbits, as if he was weighing up their strength and courage.
4. What, in fact, does Strider know about Hobbits? Hes been part of the watch on the Shire for some years, but has he actually met any Hobbits except possibly Bilbo? How will he assess their ability to hold out in an attack?
The Company finally leaves publicly after breakfast (maybe even both First and Second breakfast), with Bill the Pony as a highly-valued new member. Butterbur has been a prince of a landlord, not only paying the exorbitant amount charged for Bill but also some compensation to Merry for the lost ponies.
5. Whats the accounting for this venture look like at the moment? Did the Hobbits pay for their rooms & dinner? What about Striders room, where they actually spent the night? Breakfast(s)? Whose financial loss is greater at the moment?
6. Given that the ponies and most of the other animals were eventually recovered, who ended up financially ahead for this event at the end of the quest?
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squire
Half-elven
Feb 24 2015, 12:53pm
Post #2 of 26
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Your question about Strider's knowledge of hobbits and their latent hardiness - does he even know any actual hobbits, besides Bilbo? - struck me.
One, I have always imagined that the Rangers and the Bounders (Shire hobbits on the borders) must have known each other informally, even if the hobbits had no idea of the Rangers' actual mission and history. Since Bree and Buckland have some intercourse, and Farmer Maggot is not surprised to meet a man (in the form of a Black Rider) on his lands, and the East Road runs right through the Shire, with its inns and pubs for travelers' refreshment, why assume that Strider and his fellows do not know any hobbits? (I think it's Elrond who confesses he knew no hobbits besides Bilbo).
More interestingly, as I thought about this, I wondered where the "soft" hobbits are in the story. Who do we meet, in these early chapters, who show timidity and lack of spirit or lack of outdoor experience? I don't doubt they exist, because the author tells us so and the story depends on it. But the supporting character hobbits we actually meet: Ted Sandyman, the Gaffer, the Proudfoots, Maggot, Fatty, even the Sackville-Bagginses, show spirit, intelligence, wisdom, and courage in varying amounts in balance with their provincial outlooks and limited knowledge of the outside world.
So, as he expresses doubt whether they can walk to Rivendell through the Wild, Strider considers these four hobbits who behaved foolishly in the inn, but who emerged from the Barrow-downs and the Old Forest in the company of Bombadil, showing at the least a capability for travel in hard country that a similar company arriving by the Road would not. And we the readers have not really been impressed by the helplessness or 'softness' of any of the Shire's inhabitants that we have gotten to know. Strider's concern here reads more like another melodramatic flourish by the author, than a consequence of the story as it's played out so far.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Feb 24 2015, 5:54pm
Post #3 of 26
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Well, whoever it is:
Doesn't cause anyone to have the near-a-black-rider terrors (as far as we know)
Is not sensed by Frodo (as far as we know), unlike his reactions to being near Black Riders so far.
Turns over one room and then gives up.
That suggests local henchmen to me, though I expect there is a way of explaining these things if you do want the Black Riders to have attacked in person.
An attack by henchmen also chimes with Strider's comments that he doesn't think the Black Riders will storm the Inn, while the "long leagues of Eriador" (isn't that a nice phrase!) lie ahead.
It has sometimes puzzled me why the Riders don't make a more determined attack - having got a fix on the Ringbearer, you'd think they'd want the Ring NOW, and any level of casualties would be an acceptable price for getting it. Why risk letting the Ringberaer get away once more?
But to untangle that we have to speculate about what the Riders do and do not know (Do they worry there might be a Level ??? Wizard hiding in the Inn? That might make them pause?). And we have to speculate about what the Riders could do if they did attack, and whether they could risk breaking cover and leaving Bree an obvious site of a wraith rampage. Assuming they could get the Ring at the cost of revealing themselves, would that be a problem? How do they plan to get the Ring & possible captured bearer away? Should they be worried about any attempts to recapture It and him while they are heading back to Mordor?
I quite like the idea myself that the burgled room is a bit of freelance effort by some henchmen who were only supposed to stampede the horses. That introduces the "oft evil will shall evil mar" theme - perhaps the burglars don't really know what they are looking for, and being a couple of dodgy blokes rather than Great Kings of Old aren't aren't able to risk searching for long with teh danger of getting into a fight.
~~~~~~
"nowim I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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Darkstone
Immortal
Feb 24 2015, 9:38pm
Post #4 of 26
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1. What is Tolkien conveying to us in these dreams?
They seem to be somewhat based on medieval dream visions, which is hardly surprising given Tolkiens background. Interestingly enough, usually there is a guide inside the dreams, but in each of Frodos cases a guide for the next stage of his journey is there upon awakening: Merry, who will guide them through the Old Forest, is present with a lighted candle; Bombadil, who will guide them through the Downs, is drawing back yellow curtains; and Strider, who will lead them through to Amon Hen, is pushing back the heavy shutters with a clang.
All three guides provide light.
Note that dream-like Lothlorien itself is a pretty typical medieval dream vision, with Galadriel as a guide who at the end of the dream provides the light of Erendil.
After Amon Hen Frodo has to be his own guide and provide his own light in the Land of Darkness.
BTW, I especially like the transition from flickering candle to airy yellow curtain to heavy clanging shutters to delicate magical phial.
This means something.
2. In particular, what is the point of dreaming about Gandalf imprisoned in Orthanc several weeks ago?
It helps Frodo in choosing his path after reading Gandalfs letter: But what can have happened to Gandalf? He writes as if he was going into great danger. If Frodo accepts the veracity of his dream, then he, and only he, knows not only that Gandalf did indeed ride into danger, but that Gandalf probably will not be back, and that he has little choice but to trust Strider.
The Hobbits were supposed to wake early to set off for Rivendell. But they wake to a series of horrible discoveries:
Coyote love and other morning-after horrors. That's what happens when you wake up in a place with a name like The Prancing Pony.
* Their assigned rooms have been raided, the bolsters left in the beds slashed, and the rooms generally trashed.
Im sure Butterbur is used to such shenanigans during Astron Break.
* Worse yet, the ponies are all missing indeed, there are no horses or ponies left in town except for one broken-down nag belonging to the disreputable Bill Ferny.
Whats the one connection between this and the missing horses at the Morannon? Aragorn! I bet he pinched Boromirs horse, too.
3. Who dunnit?
Im Inspector Lookbehindyou of Breeland Yard and I'm sure youre all wondering why I asked you here. And you lot, take some Tic-Tacs for that black breath of yours.
In the movies, it was clearly Black Riders.
Destroy a kingdom or three and the next thing you know youre being blamed for every little thing that goes wrong in Arnor.
However, many book fans argue this is more the style of Ferny and the local ruffians.
It also seems in the style of the door kicking, Open in the name of Mordor, more humanized Black Riders of Crickhollow.
What do you think, and why?
Why choose? Makes better sense if they do it together as a group. This one acts as lookout, that one carries the crowbar, the other one the centre bit, another the life preserver (if they need to hit), yet another the silent matches, that one the dark lantern, another the file, and the last one brings the skeletonic keys.
Quite a mob you might say. Luckily they all move with cat-like tread.
Faced with all this bad news, Strider sat silent for a while, looking at the hobbits, as if he was weighing up their strength and courage.
A long while. The hobbits could have had second breakfast and brunch as he sized them up while silently cursing Gandalf for saddling him with these yahoos.
4. What, in fact, does Strider know about Hobbits?
Quite a bit. Hes a master at dropping eaves. Like Sam thats how he met Gandalf.
Hes been part of the watch on the Shire for some years, but has he actually met any Hobbits except possibly Bilbo?
No doubt, but do they know they met him? Who do you think was disguised as that big tree that Sams cousin met up beyond the North Moors?
[Insert picture of Sir Rodney from The Wizard of Id]
Hes also known as Stretch the Giant Dwarf and Cesar the Hairy Elf.
No wonder the Shire Folk think outsiders are weird.
How will he assess their ability to hold out in an attack?
Thats one of the innate abilities of a leader of men. (Of course these are hobbits.)
5. Whats the accounting for this venture look like at the moment?
Theyre doing quite well!
Remember their poor financial situation the night before:
[Frodo] thought uncomfortably that he had brought only a little money with him. All of it would hardly satisfy a rogue, and he could not spare any of it.
But this morning they're flush with plenty of cash for rooms, food, supplies, a pony, even apples for walking and tobacco for sitting!
Apparently a party of four burglars can turn quite a profit overnight!
And I bet Merry found a floating crap game while he was out last night and emptied the pockets of some of the local yokels.
Did the Hobbits pay for their rooms & dinner?
Of course! And they later took a five-fingered rebate out of the till.
What about Striders room, where they actually spent the night?
A ranger never sleeps, except when he does.
Breakfast(s)?
Massive eating expenses for hobbits are exactly why Elrond decided to forego sending along any Elf Lords and agreed to add M&P to the Fellowship.
Whose financial loss is greater at the moment?
Striders. His big reward for information and good advice (you must take me along with you, until I wish to leave you) shows his negotiation skills are seriously lacking. I shudder at all the one-sided trade agreements made under King Elessar. No doubt The Reunited Kingdom regularly got shorn like a sheep by all of its trading partners.
6. Given that the ponies and most of the other animals were eventually recovered, who ended up financially ahead for this event at the end of the quest?
Im still going with Frodo, who turned a slim purse into a bulging money sack overnight!
(Remember how he sold out Bag End just prior to the collapse of the housing market under the rule of Sharkey and the Ruffians? Frod is the Gordon Gekko of Middle-earth!)
******************************************
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a wonderful town!!!
Mount Doom blew up,
And the Black Tower's down!!
The orcs all fell in a hole in the ground!
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a heckuva town!!!
-Lord of the Rings: The Musical, music by Leonard Bernstein, lyrics by Betty Comden and Adolph Green
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Brethil
Half-elven
Feb 24 2015, 10:21pm
Post #5 of 26
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Meanwhile, in Bree, Frodo has another dream:
Frodo soon went to sleep again; but his dreams were again troubled with the noise of wind and of galloping hoofs. The wind seemed to be curling round the house and shaking it; and far off he heard a horn blowing wildly.
This is the third and last of Frodofs dreams that are described in detail. As Altaira observed, back in 2002:
* All of Frodofs dreams are of real events.
* Frodofs first dream was of the future, the second of the past, and this one in Bree was about the present (or, at least, the very recent Buckland past).
* Other than Faramir and Boromir, Frodo is the only character whose dreams are revealed to us (even in ROTK, when the narrative turns to Samfs point of view).
* All three of Frodofs dreams occurred during this ebeginningf phase of his journey
Most curiously, the second dream is about Gandalf, imprisoned in Orthanc. But that was weeks ago: Gandalf escaped from Orthanc back on September 18, long before Frodo even left Bag End!
1. What is Tolkien conveying to us in these dreams?
2. In particular, what is the point of dreaming about Gandalf imprisoned in Orthanc several weeks ago? I had discussed the dream about the Tower of Elostirion in the Conspiracy Unmasked chapter, and I have been thinking on Frodo's dreams since. I think that the dreams of Frodo start very early on; we just get a glimpse though, in Shadow of the Past: "He found himself wondering at times, especially in the autumn, about the wild lands, and strange visions of mountains that he had never seen came into his dreams." What is interesting is we also get, in the paragraph preceding this bit, the idea that the Ring has begun to have an effect on Frodo with it just hanging around his neck: "As time went on, people began to notice that Frodo also showed signs of good 'preservation'..." So the Ring itself is making a subtle appearance already I think, and the 'also' clearly unites Frodo's unnatural youthfulness with Bilbo's; and we know the rationale for that, so I think we can connect the syllogistic dots here. So as early as the second chapter of Book 1, Frodo is already dreaming of places he has not seen; this speaks to me of prescience and a connection with a wider world which has a portal of sorts within his dreaming mind. The Romantics had ideas that dreaming helps the dreamer transcend waking reality, and so many of the Northern myths that JRRT was inspired by feature dreams (often by heroes, so darn many to list) had portents delivered this way. I think both influences can be felt in Frodo's dreams especially with their placement early on in the story (in the sense of portents) and occurring before his injury at Weathertop which can be seen to fully change his standing in the real world to existing in a state touching the spirit world all of the time. Thus after this, the Romantic idea of transcending reality in dreams was perhaps no longer necessary, as Frodo transcended it beyond his mortal state permanently after that wounding event and full contact with the unseen world of the Wraiths. In this state, we know he sees Glorfindel in his glory as a shining figure of white light at Bruinen. In which case, the dream here about him recognizing the events happening at Crickhollow (as well as seeing Gandalf pacing) I think can count as more of a portal/portent sort of dream, versus a transcension of reality and thus are similar in nature; Frodo is merely in touch with and becoming aware of actual events that are concurrently/recent past but map-distantly happening out of his mortal range of perception. Different than the Elostirion dream, which is a distinct transcension of time and reality, as it occurs out of synch with current time in one way or another: either as a flash-forward to his own fate OR as a sort of gift of what has been seen by Gildor. It is also a tapestry sort of vision, with events in a sort of chronological order (pursuit, snuffling, followed by the sound of the sea and the desire to climb high above the mean and tangled) which encapsulates his Quest and his future. In contrast, I would say that the dreams of Boromir and Faramir about seeking the Sword that was Broken (which interestingly came to Faramir many times but only once to Boromir) are more of a transcendent sort of prophecy dream, and likely represent some deus in the machina. Ulmo, the dream master? Could be. Do I think Frodo's dreams are necessarily the same? Not really. I see his as more topical and relevant to the Ringbearing. Faramir, for example, I think would have received the dream he did when he did merely because of who he was, versus any external thing (like carrying the Ring). Of course, the timing of the dreams relates intimately to Frodo and events ocurring: those dreams would not have come to the heir of the Stewards (or to a worthy Steward himself, perhaps?) once the Ring had been found and the time for supporting the King came around.
(This post was edited by Brethil on Feb 24 2015, 10:21pm)
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squire
Half-elven
Feb 24 2015, 11:05pm
Post #6 of 26
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You say Altaira postulated that "Other than Faramir and Boromir, Frodo is the only character whose dreams are revealed to us (even in ROTK, when the narrative turns to Sams point of view)."
Interestingly, we do get a couple of dreams of Sam's. The first is at the point in The Two Towers where he begins to take over for Frodo - or become Frodo, in some sense:
It was [Sam's] turn to sleep first, and he was soon deep in a dream. He thought he was back in the Bag End garden looking for something; but he had a heavy pack on his back, which made him stoop. It all seemed very weedy and rank somehow, and thorns and bracken were invading the beds down near the bottom hedge.
A job of work for me, I can see; but Im so tired, he kept on saying. Presently he remembered what he was looking for. My pipe! he said, and with that he woke up. - LotR IV.7I have always thought this dream, although heavily influenced by the fact that they're sleeping in briar patches and coming under the depressive influence of Morgul, presages his assumption of the mastery of Bag End - the pipe representing his achievement of a leisured life after a youth spent toiling in the hole's garden.
Then, as misguessed by Altaira, we have Sam's nightmarish panics as they cross the desert plain towards Mt. Doom:
At last wearied with his cares Sam drowsed, leaving the morrow till it came; he could do no more. Dream and waking mingled uneasily. He saw lights like gloating eyes, and dark creeping shapes, and he heard noises as of wild beasts or the dreadful cries of tortured things; and he would start up to find the world all dark and only empty blackness all about him. Once only, as he stood and stared wildly round, did it seem that, though now awake, he could still see pale lights like eyes; but soon they flickered and vanished. - LotR VI.3Here the meaning of the dream(s) is a little plainer: simply put, there's little difference between being awake in Mordor, and having a nightmare. But Sam has these night-fits, not Frodo, because as Altaira says, he has taken over the narrative focus. Frodo's dreams, as far as we can make out, are all about the Ring of Fire, its temptation for him to claim it, and nothing else.
squire online:
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Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Feb 24 2015, 11:26pm
Post #7 of 26
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But I have an irrational desire to believe the Nazgul used powers of stealth to enter the inn and attacked the hobbits' room. It makes the whole situation seem scarier. And if I think about the culprits being Ferny and the half-orc, I think Strider and Butterbur's servants might have driven them off, which again doesn't seem very scary. But having Strider hiding out in the parlor, piling the fire high to ward off evil, and completely abandoning the hobbits' room seems like he was very afraid of the danger that was to come that night.
To follow this line of thought, the Black Riders were furious that they were tricked by the fake hobbit bodies in the beds and vowed to *really* get even with them once they set foot outside Bree. As part of this plan, they used their fear to drive off all the mounted beasts, which I'll note didn't just get spooked outside of the town gates, but took for the wild. Merry's ponies were so scared they went all the way back to Bombadil. I don't think Ferny could scare them that much.
Hence, I admit it's not clear who was behind the Inn attack--one could probably make a case for Lobelia to be behind it too--but I think to think of the Black Riders as getting directly involved, simultaneously attacking the Inn and Crickhollow and failing at both.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Feb 24 2015, 11:31pm
Post #8 of 26
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It seems important in the character development of Frodo that he's in touch with the spiritual side of the world more than the average hobbit. It's why he's selected by fate to bear the Ring and why he can draw on unseen energies to resist it for so long, and then afterwards become a spiritually evolved person who can forgive his enemies and swear off violence and in a sense be prepared to live in the West. Most of his dreams are portentous and not more common dreams about hot baths, rich feasts, or having drinking parties in pubs.
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Brethil
Half-elven
Feb 25 2015, 12:23am
Post #9 of 26
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Faced with all this bad news, Strider sat silent for a while, looking at the hobbits, as if he was weighing up their strength and courage.
4. What, in fact, does Strider know about Hobbits? Hes been part of the watch on the Shire for some years, but has he actually met any Hobbits except possibly Bilbo? How will he assess their ability to hold out in an attack? What Squire said. I like it. 5. Whats the accounting for this venture look like at the moment? Did the Hobbits pay for their rooms & dinner? What about Striders room, where they actually spent the night? Breakfast(s)? Whose financial loss is greater at the moment?
I'm not sure if Butterbur charged them that night. Butterbur gets the new ponies later on, but he's in a hole at the moment I should think. The real winner here is Bill the Pony, as he now has Sam as a beloved pet and beast-of-burden. Or maybe that's the other way 'round. Or not! 6. Given that the ponies and most of the other animals were eventually recovered, who ended up financially ahead for this event at the end of the quest?
Samwise. He gets Bag End at the end of the day.
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Brethil
Half-elven
Feb 25 2015, 12:26am
Post #10 of 26
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But I have an irrational desire to believe the Nazgul used powers of stealth to enter the inn and attacked the hobbits' room. It makes the whole situation seem scarier.
Hence, I admit it's not clear who was behind the Inn attack--one could probably make a case for Lobelia to be behind it too--but I think to think of the Black Riders as getting directly involved, simultaneously attacking the Inn and Crickhollow and failing at both.
From a reader standpoint, I agree. Though the case for less imposing presence in the Inn is a strong, logical one. If so, presumably Bill Ferny was the ringleader? I in truth have never considered that it was anyone but the Wraiths all these years, so this is a new twist for me. Not sure where I will ultimately come down. Its a head-versus-heart sort of debate.
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a.s.
Valinor
Feb 25 2015, 2:25pm
Post #11 of 26
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Frodo's dreams "bridge time and space"
[In reply to]
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. What is Tolkien conveying to us in these dreams?
Verlyn Flieger took a book-long look at Tolkien's use of dream as a time travel device throughout much of his writing. Explicitly in Notion Club Papers and the Lost Road, and then more compellingly (because it undergirds the story but is not what the story is "about") in LOTR. I highly recommend A Question of Time.
Frodo, as the main character of the book, carries most of the "dream work" within it, although there are very important dreams from other dreamers as well. Merry's lightly touched on dream in the barrow: "Ah! the spear in my heart"--what an interesting thing Tolkien touches on there and then moves on. Merry is dreaming of what, a past life? Channeling someone else's memories? Who knows, we move on, having had a tantalizing (if scary) brief view of an ancient battle described in the words of a dreamer who has had a nightmare. Faramir and Boromir's twin dream (if one believes Boromir that he also had this dream--we will be discussing this dream in the Council chapter, I hope) of the voice entreating them to seek for the sword that was broken, in Imladris where it dwells: what kind of dream is this? Is it a prophecy? Have the dreamers been granted some kind of seer ability? Who controlled that dream then, who sent the vision?
Frodo sometimes has ordinary bad dreams, such as his dream at Crickhollow about the tower and the sea, and his "waking dreams" while on the final stage of his journey. Sometimes he dreams of real past events of which he should have no actual knowledge (like his dream of Gandalf at Orthanc). But he also has prescient dreams, seeing the future (the grey rain curtain comes easily to mind) and most importantly, he has dreams about things that are occurring in other places at the same time (such as his dream here, about the events in Crickhollow). He is TIME TRAVELING as well as SPACE TRAVELING within his dreams, a theme Tolkien worked on explicitly in other works and uses to wonderful effect in LOTR. It's really only on re-reading that you notice how often Frodo travels through space-time in his dreams.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"A safe fairyland is untrue to all worlds." JRR Tolkien, Letters.
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sador
Half-elven
Feb 26 2015, 10:55am
Post #14 of 26
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1. What is Tolkien conveying to us in these dreams?
For one thing, as squire pointed out, Sam does dream, as does Pippin in The Uruk hai - although Pippin's dream is connected to the immediate reality (like his dream in the House of Tom Bombadil).
I think it is significant that all three dreams are in Book I (well, there is also his daydream on Mount Caradhras). But more than anything else, I would connect them to Bilbo's dreams in The Hobbit. In FotR, Frodo is our one hero, and clearly coninues his uncle's journey.
2. In particular, what is the point of dreaming about Gandalf imprisoned in Orthanc several weeks ago?
It's a nice dream, and Tolkien retained it. This dream is a 'fossil' of the third phase of writing, during which Gandalf was supposed to be imprisoned by the Riders in Elostirion, and still imprisoned at this stage.
3. Who dunnit? In the movies, it was clearly Black Riders. However, many book fans argue this is more the style of Ferny and the local ruffians. What do you think, and why?
Regarding the thread you've linked to below, the presentation of facts is a bit inexact. To begin with, in RotS p. 126 (the citation dernwyn gave), Bill Ferny is not said to have burgled the inn - only to have found out the rooms of the hobbits. But this is of course news he could have sold.
NEB was more correct, in dating this idea of Tolkien to 1940, the fourth phase of writing; but even this wasn't simple.
In The Treason of Isengard page 13, Christopher Tolkien describes four time-schemes his father wrote for Gandalf's movements, and in scheme D (the final one), the movements of the Riders are also described, with the note "DEG crossed the River by the Fery; and on the same night H and I returned and attacked the Prancing Pony".
In ToI p. 34, Frodo dreams of being attacked by Riders at the Tower at the same time the room next door was attacked. Bothing is said for sure, but the implication is clear.
In pages 52-3, Trotter retracts his words about the Riders not attacking the inn: "They may after all try some attack before we leave Bree."
Finally, in page 71, another scheme with the Riders was made. Riders D and E were supposed to attac the inn and fail; but Tolkien struck out this, writing instead: "They fear 'Trotter', but get Bill Ferney and the Southerner to burgle the Inn and try and get more news, especially of the Ring. The burglary fails; but they drive off all the ponies."
After that - well, in 1955, Tolkien clearly wrote that the Riders attacked the inn (as NEB wrote); what is more, this is clearly the same note as he wrote in the Tale of Years, appendix B, for September 30. I think he was probably working with time-scheme D, which I quoted above.
So: according to HoME, at first Tolkien thought it was the Riders who 'did it'; then he changed his mind, and preferred it to be a human job. We don't know why - and as it is only written on a note he jotted down for himself, it might have been just an ephmeral idea - but he did omit Trotter reconsideration of his assertion the inn will not be attacked, so it seems he did take this change seriously. But in 1955, when working on the appendices and The Hunt for the Ring, he returned to his original idea.
Now if we assume that Tolkien's "final word" is conclusive - for instance, if we take for granted that Gil-galad is the son of Orodreth rather than Fingon - than we must say that Bakshi and Jackson were right, and it was the Riders. But I never quite accepted this surmise, and neither did NEB, who went as far as asserting:
I think Tolkien was misremembering what he had in mind as he actually wrote LotR. As shown by dernwyn in this thread, and by Elizabeth in the thread below (linking to dernwyn again in early 2005), Tolkien decided c. 1940 that Ferny and the Southerner burgled the hobbits' rooms, and nothing in the published drafts for LotR contradicts that idea.
Well, I must point out that quite a bit in the published drafts contradicts the idea. It would be more correct to say that nothing written afterwards and published in HoME does so. Also, I guess Tolkien was not misremembering - but working with time-scheme D; and it makes sense to prefer a well-considered scheme to a correction on a jotted-down note.
(as a side-note: among other arguments, NEB stated that it couldn't have been the Riders who scared off the ponies, as theywould have made such a noise to wake up everyone around. But the only note which indicates that Tolkien intended Ferny and the Southerner to be the burglars, says explicitly that they did)
So we have to turn to internal eidence:
The argument regarding the breaking-in being more in the style of Ferny, has been answered convincingly by Darkstone in this thread.
I also wonder why did merry call Ferny "a ruffian and a highway-robber" in the Scouring of the Shire? Nothing much in this, except that for some reason I misremembered Merry calling him "a housebreaker", which would indicate that Merry thought he burgled the inn. But there's nothing in it.
On the other hand, there is Nowizardme's argument that Butterbur and Strider should have been able to fnd off Ferny and his pretty friend. With Butterbur, we do have the author's deflating "He had hardly closed his eyes all night (so he said)" - but Strider?
The main argument for a human job is Strider's statement in the previous night "I think not... And in any case that is not their way... But their power is in terror, and already some in Bree are in their clutch. they wil drive these wretches to some evil work...". As I have argued here (before reading HoME), this is not much of a proof: Strider might have been just trying to calm the hobbits down, and in any case his words in Flotsam and Jetsam:
It seems plain now that that Southerner was a spy of Saruman's; but whether he was working with the black Riders, or for Saruman alone, I do not know. It is difficult with these evil folk to know when they are in league, and when they are cheating one another.
This could only have two meanings: either the Southerner did actually manage to cheat the Riders, burgled the inn by their comission but had he found anything he would have taken the news to Isengard, or that Aragorn himself didn't attribute the burglary to him, or at least was doubtful about this. I find the first option rather hard to sustain, so it seems that whatever Aragorn might have said to Frodo before that night, he had changed his mind afterwards - or, which seems more likely, Tolkien did by the time he had gotten to the end of Book III.
(To be fair, see NEB's responses to my post there; however, he seems to have written from memory and not checked HoME - the change of the identity of the burglars was made after Trotter became a man, possibly to postpone the showdown between him and the Riders).
I want to add that Aragorn's assertion is also contradicted twice by Gandalf: In The Shadow of the Past, he says:
It is many a year since the Nine walked abroad. Yet who knows? As the Shadow grows once more, they too may walk again.
This clearly indicates that whatever Aragorn says, it is not based on any certain knowledge.
And in The Council of Elrond:
But in the night we heard more. Five at least came from the west, and they threw down the gates and passed through Bree like a howling wind; and the Bree-folk are still shivering and expecting the end of the world.
So it may not be their way to attack a town when they have the whole wide leagues of Eriador before them, but they did that the very next night.
So I don't think Aragorn's words should be considered a conclusive proof (which of course, doesn't mean he's wrong).
To sum up, Tolkien switched back and forth between the ideas. The text gives no clear proof either way, although both seem to have serious problems with them. There are clear indications pointing both ways - the attack on Crickhollow, and Strider's words - but either could easily be a red herring.
Was this left unclear on purpose? I would like to think this is another case of what Curious and FarFromHome used to call "deliberate ambiguity" - but this is only a hunch of mine.
4. What, in fact, does Strider know about Hobbits? Hes been part of the watch on the Shire for some years, but has he actually met any Hobbits except possibly Bilbo?
He did meet Bilbo, of course. See Many Meetings.
How will he assess their ability to hold out in an attack?
He can't, of course. He doesn't even know their story yet - only heard from Gildor's folk that they were in trouble. I have to go with Darkstone's explanation that he had to judge them based on what he saw so far, quite like Eomer and Faramir did afterwards.
5. Whats the accounting for this venture look like at the moment? Did the Hobbits pay for their rooms & dinner?
It seems that they didn't. Perhaps once the house proved to be unsafe, Butterbur didn't charge them? Or was he so afraid of Gandalf that he just didn't mention it?
What about Striders room, where they actually spent the night?
I thought they slept in the parlour leading to the hobbits' bedrroms. Did Strider even bespeak a room?
Breakfast(s)? Whose financial loss is greater at the moment?
Mugwort's. To say nothing of his having aterrible hangover.
6. Given that the ponies and most of the other animals were eventually recovered, who ended up financially ahead for this event at the end of the quest?
Is it a competition? I would say it's win-win.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Feb 26 2015, 6:26pm
Post #16 of 26
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Thank you, sador, for this definitive analysis!
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It deserves to be bookmarked and reference in future Reading Room threads for generations to come!
And, of course you're right about the parlor. Though, that would have been awfully close to the bedrooms, wouldn't it? In which case, why didn't anyone (even Strider) hear the ransacking, which would have been fairly noisy?
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sador
Half-elven
Feb 27 2015, 7:52am
Post #17 of 26
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Thank you! But for the sake of completeness and fairness
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I'm afraid that I've cast an unfavouravle light on two prominent members, and also had made only the case for one side of the argument.
To begin with an apology - I am personally very much indebted to both dernwyn and NEB. I have learned a lot from both of them; and their likeable, welcoming personalities were among the main reasons of my staying so long on these boards (other reasons were the personalities of several other members... but these two were among those with whom I have felt a close connection).
I know how difficult it is to quote obscure sources from memory, or even get a citation exactly when hurriedly checking for it. Two weeks ago, I was caught flatooted by Bracegirdle when referring to the Map of the Shire - which is readily available, and far simpler to chek than the morrass that is HoME. And I am (AFAIK) the only frequenter of the RR who has worked for years as an editor, so I can reasonably be expected to find my way around it better than others. I have pointed out slight mistakes they have made, but this does not mean anything about them, save that they posted in a hurry.
But regarding the presentation of the whodunnit question - after all I have written above, it seems NEB and dernwyn were right in principle - in the fourth phase of writing, Tolkien did write a note on which the Riders option was written down, but struck out, and instead of it Ferny and the Southerner were named as the culprits. He did revise the tenth and eleventh chapter with that in his mind - he deleted one sentence which clearly indicated otherwise - but this did not change materially the chapter as written; like he decided to omit Harry Goatleaf's encounter with the Riders which he did write in the drafts, he decided to keep this matter dark, creating the atmosphere of suspense and ambiguity which makes the Riders such a successful character.
In a way, it's like changing 'Trotter' to 'Strider', or 'Barnabas Butterbur' to 'Barliman' - one could easily argue that the fact that during the story's developement Tolkien thought the culprits were others makes no difference - once he had come to consider the question, he unequivocally decided on Ferny and co.
The problem is that apparently JRRT forgot this decision, and kept in memory his original concept - in two (perhaps three) future chapters he had dropped hints pointing to the Riders, as well as retaining (adding? I don't have the time to check) the contradicting statement in The Shadow of the Past, and in The Tale of Years he did the same. Presumably, had he written down explicitly in the book that it was Ferny he would have remembered it - but being written on a single note, he did not.
So the chapters in which the raid on the inn are described point at the Ferny and his friends as the housebreakers (although, as Curious stated, they must have had some magical help to do so without raising the alarm), while other chapters indicate otherwise. Ferny is a small fish, and Aragorn states later that the Enemy would never let the likes of him know what they were looking for, and wouldn't it be risky to let Ferny near the Ring? (Although again, Aragorn's guess is contradicted by the story of Grishnakh...)
This results in a wonderful ambiguity.Was it deliberate? At the stage of writing, probably not. But I would like to think that during the revising stages, JRRT did notice it and left it in deliberately.
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Feb 27 2015, 2:55pm
Post #18 of 26
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I must admit, as a film-firster, I had always assumed it was the Riders, but now I'm seeing things differently...
It bothered me before that the Riders gave up so easily once they entered the inn, but this read-through has changed my initial perception of them. Previously, I had thought that the Riders' powers of Ring-detection was a given thing with proximity. However, as has been pointed out by others, there were many cases where they were close to the Ring but failed to notice it's presence. Now, I could see that the two wraiths, (Said to have broken into the Pony in one draft) could have been lower echelon members of the Nazgul--more easily confused and distracted. We do know Ferny ferreted out which rooms they had taken, so perhaps it their frustration, they went to settle with him? However, the points that there was no aura of fear said to have spread through town, and that the Nazgul would not enter the town with lights and people do deserve some more consideration.
As for the horses... I think either the ruffians or wraiths could have scared them off. The point here is to strand and slow our heroes. So, as sador mentions, we could change some facets of the tale without greatly altering the premise. At first glance, I am inclined to side with my previous notions that it was the Nazgul, for the simple reason that Ferny sold them a horse. (Over-priced and ill-conditioned, but still reliable) Perhaps he is petty enough to try to make a profit on his own failure, or he thinks that one starved horse could not change things substantially, but it does seem odd that he would do this if he was under orders of the Nazgul. Maybe it is an indication that he is more independent of the Nazgul, or foolish enough to defy them, but I think of Wormtongue's 'walking terror' of them in UT and the general aura of fear they command, so to remain in the comfort of my own preconceived notions, I think not.
What do you think?
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Feb 27 2015, 3:08pm
Post #19 of 26
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A short answer (Hopefully I shall return)
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1. What is Tolkien conveying to us in these dreams?
I must confess, these dreams are one of the things that still feels strange to me when I read FotR. When I was younger, it was the poetry and songs that distracted me, but now that I have learned to appreciate the lyrical verse, these dreams befuddle me. i have to think more about it, but here are my first impressions:
I think that in most cases, these dreams serve to set Frodo apart from the other hobbits. He is the main hero (and only one on a quest at this point), and he experiences things that only heroes might. These experiences put him in the first chair of the Middle-Earth hero club-- he has dreams. Aragorn comes later with his sword, Merry with his fealty given to Theoden, Pippin with his oath to Denethor, but for now Frodo is one-of-a-kind.
Another thing I see is that Frodo's dreams always transfer into wakefullness. I don't think these dreams are meant to stand alone for us to ponder it's imagery alone. Darkstone made some fantastic points about the transitions present in waking, so I'll simply add that these dreams are especially meant to, and do influence Frodo's life and choices. They may very well be touching some unseen world of influence that is at subtle work, both for good and evil, though Frodo does seem to be blessed at the outset with benevolent dreams of guidance-- things to hold on to in the nightmare of Mordor. Perhaps the terror of nightmare for evil is to juxtapose the power of dreams for good?
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Feb 27 2015, 3:37pm
Post #20 of 26
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It seems we're never left knowing how the Ring really works. Strider will say later on Weathertop that the Ring draws the Nazgul, as if from miles away, but they can be next to it in the Woody End, or under the same roof with it in Bree, and those sniffing noses don't sniff it out at all. Or only the Chief Nazgul can really sense it the best, but if that's so, why isn't he the only searcher? And why didn't he sense it in Morgul Vale instead of sensing a vague something he wasn't sure of?
But since the Ring and its effects are so variable, I don't think that rules out the Nazgul entering the inn, slashing the wrong beds, and being rather stupid and bereft of cunning thought because they are ultimately soulless slaves, they just give up and leave, maybe to report back to the boss.
With Ferny, I think he's depicted as entirely out for himself, someone who'd sell his own mother. He'll make a deal with the Nazgul for his benefit, but if he can sell off an old nag for a ridiculous price, then why not, even it it works against the Nazgul? He's not on anyone's side, after all, just his own. For whatever reason, the Nazgul didn't put any spell on him, so he can make small, mean mischief. And if they had challenged him over selling Bill to the hobbits, he could have said with justification that the pony would probably die in a day or two and wasn't going to be any real help to them.
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Brethil
Half-elven
Feb 28 2015, 12:01am
Post #21 of 26
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Not sure if I see the dreams connecting these dots, Sador...
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But more than anything else, I would connect them to Bilbo's dreams in The Hobbit. In FotR, Frodo is our one hero, and clearly coninues his uncle's journey.
...or other dots, as serving to separate and rarefy Frodo from among the other Hobbits, including Bilbo, who I think is the true literary heir to Bilbo: "Cert. Sam is the most closely drawn character, the successor to Bilbo of the first book, the genuine hobbit." (#93, 1944) He also calls Sam 'the chief hero' at the end of #131. In truth, Sam reminds me most of TH Bilbo with the line early in this chapter - 'Apples for walking and a pipe for sitting,' he said. 'But I reckon I'll miss them both before long.'
The dreams that Frodo has seem to me to set him apart, as one who has great destiny, and an all-consuming Quest; behold the sacrifice, as it were. His journey is all his own I think, and tough he bears the Ring and the burden of Bilbo's discovery, I think it is Sam who continues as the Everyman journey that Bilbo started, and 'remained very happy to the end of his days', in a very earthy way. That's not how I would describe Frodo's end. The otherworldliness of Frodo's dreams seem to underline this, early on.
(This post was edited by Brethil on Feb 28 2015, 12:02am)
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Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
Mar 1 2015, 3:05pm
Post #22 of 26
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3. Who dunnit? In the movies, it was clearly Black Riders. However, many book fans argue this is more the style of Ferny and the local ruffians. What do you think, and why?
One of the problems with having read LOTR so many times when I was a youngster is that it is very hard indeed to get ingrained (and sometimes inaccurate) ideas back out when I reread! I had never before considered that it might not have been Black Riders who did this vandalizing. It could be because I had early on assumed that the shadowy figure climbing over the Bree-gate earlier was a Black Rider (sans the Ride), and that therefore he must have met up with his chums and done the deed. I could also blame Bakshi, because I saw his LOTR soon after I read it the first time--but then, I'd blame Bakshi for anything, because I still haven't forgiven him for the miniskirts.  So I appreciate the broader perspective from everyone on whodunnit. (And maybe you all can open my mind about Bakshi too, but that would be harder work.  )
4. What, in fact, does Strider know about Hobbits? Hes been part of the watch on the Shire for some years, but has he actually met any Hobbits except possibly Bilbo? How will he assess their ability to hold out in an attack?
I take his assessing to mean that Aragorn is weighing what little he does know about Hobbits personally (which I would assume is minimal, or based on Bilbo, who is without doubt an exceptional Hobbit) against what Gandalf has told him about the people as a whole--obviously Gandalf thought highly of them in general and was able to convince the Rangers so too, since the Shire-guard was set at all. (That was all Gandalf's influence, wasn't it? Now I'm wondering if that's another one of my ingrained assumptions!) We know Gandalf thinks Frodo the best of the Hobbits of the Shire, but I wonder whether he had passed that particular opinion on to Aragorn. I'm guessing Aragorn is weighing his own observations against what Gandalf has told him, and after that the many precautions and plans he himself will need to make as their guardian and guide.
Tollers, Lewis said to Tolkien, there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Mar 1 2015, 4:11pm
Post #23 of 26
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4. What, in fact, does Strider know about Hobbits? Hes been part of the watch on the Shire for some years, but has he actually met any Hobbits except possibly Bilbo? How will he assess their ability to hold out in an attack?
I take his assessing to mean that Aragorn is weighing what little he does know about Hobbits personally (which I would assume is minimal, or based on Bilbo, who is without doubt an exceptional Hobbit) against what Gandalf has told him about the people as a whole--obviously Gandalf thought highly of them in general and was able to convince the Rangers so too, since the Shire-guard was set at all. (That was all Gandalf's influence, wasn't it? Now I'm wondering if that's another one of my ingrained assumptions!) We know Gandalf thinks Frodo the best of the Hobbits of the Shire, but I wonder whether he had passed that particular opinion on to Aragorn. I'm guessing Aragorn is weighing his own observations against what Gandalf has told him, and after that the many precautions and plans he himself will need to make as their guardian and guide.
Strider is also somewhat known (if not well-known) around Bree which also has a substantial Hobbit population. Granted, that doesn't mean that he has had the opportunity to observe how Haflings behave in a pinch.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
Mar 1 2015, 4:38pm
Post #24 of 26
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Hobbits in their domestic capacity
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Strider is also somewhat known (if not well-known) around Bree which also has a substantial Hobbit population. Granted, that doesn't mean that he has had the opportunity to observe how Haflings behave in a pinch.
Yes, you're right--he's probably seen Hobbits in their domestic capacity (gossiping, visiting pubs, gardening, being somewhat ridiculous on occasion). Yet though Gandalf has seen further than this front, I wonder if Aragorn shares Gandalf's faith in their being made of stern stuff down deep.
Tollers, Lewis said to Tolkien, there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.
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sador
Half-elven
Mar 2 2015, 2:12pm
Post #25 of 26
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I won't argue with the author,
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...as a matter of fact, I'm glad you've quoted this letter, as I've written something similar in a previous discussion.
However, I still mantain (agreeing with FarFromHome's reply to me on that thread), that this applies only to Books IV and VI; but in The Fellowship of the Ring, Frodo is very much the successor of Bilbo.
It is noteworthy that Sam's dreams (which Darkstone cited) belong to that stage of writing, and his dream in Ithilien is, indeed a very Bilbo-like dream; but at the House of Tom Bombadil he is the only hobbit who sleeps peacefully without dreams, and he says the same atop the tree in Lothlorien. Only in the boat on the Anduin, he refers to dreaming.
But all the dreams Altaira referred to in the post Elizabeth cited were given Frodo aroung 1940, hardly a year after the "old enough and foolish enough" Bingo was abandoned, and four years before book IV was tackled, and with it the transformations of Frodo and Sam.
However your observation, that Frodo's dreams have been edited to have an otherworldly air, is certainly true; this is even stronger in his vision at the second night at Bombadil's house (at the beginning of Fog on the Barrow-downs). The only Hobbit-like dream Frodo has is his dream of Bilbo up Caradhras (although even it might have a darker undertone, if we compare it to Jack London's To Build a Fire).
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