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**LotR: Fellowship of the Ring, 11.4 A difficult night **

Elizabeth
Half-elven


Feb 27 2015, 7:36am

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**LotR: Fellowship of the Ring, 11.4 A difficult night ** Can't Post

The “lightening” was seen on October 3. It is now October 5, and the party has survived the Midgewater Marshes and are nearing their immediate destination, Weathertop:


Quote
Away in the distance eastward they could now see a line of hills. The highest of them was at the right of the line and a little separated from the others. It had a conical top, slightly flattened at the summit.

‘That is Weathertop,’ said Strider. ‘The Old Road, which we have left far away on our right, runs to the south of it and passes not far from its foot. We might reach it by noon tomorrow, if we go straight towards it. I suppose we had better do so.’

‘What do you mean?’ asked Frodo.

‘I mean: when we do get there, it is not certain what we shall find. It is close to the Road.’

‘But surely we were hoping to find Gandalf there?’

‘Yes; but the hope is faint. If he comes this way at all, he may not pass through Bree, and so he may not know what we are doing. And anyway, unless by luck we arrive almost together, we shall miss one another; it will not be safe for him or for us to wait there long. If the Riders fail to find us in the wilderness, they are likely to make for Weathertop themselves. It commands a wide view all round.’




So: (1) Strider doesn’t really expect to find Gandalf. (2) Even if Gandalf had been there, he wouldn’t stay long because it’s not safe. (3) The Riders are likely to be heading there.

1. Tell us again, Mr. Strider, why are we going to this dangerous place?

A day later, Oct. 6, they are almost there. Strider gives them a bit of the history of the site: a former watch-tower called Amon Sûl during the ancient war against Angmar. “It is told that Elendil stood there watching for the coming of Gil-galad out of the West, in the days of the Last Alliance.” Charmed by this vignette, Sam (to everyone’s astonishment) quotes a verse about Gil-galad, which Strider instantly identifies.

2. What effect does this twin revelation (of the history, and of the fact that Sam knows it) have on Strider’s perception of the Hobbits?

3. How does it affect your perception of the Hobbits, Strider, and Middle Earth history?


Upon reaching the base of Weathertop, they stop in a “sheltered hollow.” Leaving Sam and Pippin with the pony and luggage, Strider takes Merry and Frodo to the top.

4. Again, what was Strider thinking? Why wouldn’t the “greatest woodsman of our age” go alone, in stealth, to see what there is to see, leaving his precious charges in the sheltered hollow?

They find a stone, apparently left by Gandalf, with the notation “G3,” which Strider immediately interprets as meaning Gandalf was there Oct. 3 (right answer!). Strider notes that Gandalf “can ride very swiftly when need presses.” We now know that Gandalf was riding Shadowfax, who would be swift indeed. Strider concludes that he was in danger, and was connected to the light show we saw 3 days ago. This being the case, Strider says they must make directly for Rivendell, a two-week journey, without seeking further. But at this moment they are electrified by the sight of “two black specs” moving slowly toward the mountain from one direction, and three from another. They know instantly they’re in trouble.

5. Who’s counting Black Riders? Which 5 are these? Where are the other 4?

Sam and Pippin have been collecting firewood and water from a nearby spring, where they unfortunately trampled many previous footprints. Strider analyzes what remains, and concludes that some are previous Rangers, but some are made by “heavy boots”, a Very Bad Sign. Strider gives them (and us) an analysis of the capabilities of these adversaries:


Quote
For the black horses can see, and the Riders can use men and other creatures as spies, as we found at Bree. They themselves do not see the world of light as we do, but our shapes cast shadows in their minds, which only the noon sun destroys; and in the dark they perceive many signs and forms that are hidden from us: then they are most to be feared. And at all times they smell the blood of living things, desiring and hating it. Senses, too, there are other than sight or smell. We can feel their presence – it troubled our hearts, as soon as we came here, and before we saw them; they feel ours more keenly. Also,’ he added, and his voice sank to a whisper, ‘the Ring draws them.’


6. Are these capabilities consistent with their behavior in Book 1? How about their later appearances as Flying Nazgul? Aside from their mounts, what has changed?

Terrified, the party hunkers down in the dell, with a fire, and Strider keeps terror at bay by telling tales of the Elder Days. He appears about to tell about Gil-galad and Elendil, “because it concerns us closely,” but suddenly breaks off, observing that “the servants of the Enemy are at hand,” so it's dangerous to speak of these things.

7. What is the danger?

Instead, we hear in some detail about Beren and Lúthien.

8. It’s a wonderful story, and perfect for keeping the Hobbits distracted from their danger. From a literary perspective, is this too much of a diversion at this point? Why is Tolkien giving us the story in this much detail (twice, even, in verse and prose)?

I leave you now in suspense....








(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Feb 27 2015, 7:40am)


noWizardme
Half-elven


Feb 27 2015, 3:37pm

Post #2 of 10 (2139 views)
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Tell us again, Mr. Strider, why are we going to this dangerous place? [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh, and you missed that there seemed to be a battle going on over there just recently. March AWAY from the sound of guns Mr. Strider!

I think the decision to go to Weathertop is one of those things that is great on first reading of the book, but then suffers from "Fridge Logic" (
http://onering.legendaryfrog.com/movies_orse_w.php


This "DM of the Rings" take is also pretty good

(Much better image here: http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=615 )


If it does make sense it might do so because:
I'm not very familiar with the realities of trying to rendezvous with someone whose movements you can't anticipate all while trying to avoid attention. Maybe that was something Tolkien was more familiar with (army training perhaps?)

or

It made more sense in earlier plotlines - at one point, Gandalf had passed through Bree only a little while before, and the Letter summoned the hobbits to a rendezvous at Weathertop. Unfortunately, they are running 3 days late because of the Old Forest detour, and so miss Gandalf and meet the Riders instead.


Tolkien creates such suspension of disbelief that one instinctively thinks there must be an explanation! The closest I can come is that Weathertop is the place Strider & Gandalf usually meet up, and Strider is perhaps a little more eager than he should be to transfer these troublesome halflings back to Gandalf?

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


CuriousG
Half-elven


Feb 27 2015, 11:21pm

Post #3 of 10 (2110 views)
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Signs and portents [In reply to] Can't Post

To me it seems reasonably logical that Strider wanted to get a view of their surroundings after having been obscured in the bush for a few days. Only reasonably logical: what did he expect to see in terms of view? Nine Black Riders amassed on the great road to block their passage, or a bunch of empty land?

Or was the real key here that he was looking for a sign from Gandalf and an explanation of the magical battle that had taken place there which likely involved a Wizard? That seems more logical, in which case Gandalf is the real let-down, only leaving his name and date and no other information. Anything he wrote could presumably have been read by the Nazgul, so how about a diversion, like, "Don't go to Rivendell! *wink*"? Where else would Strider have possibly gone anyway, except Rivendell? What other sign or message could Gandalf have left?

I'm not sure this part of the book ever stands up to logic. The obvious, Wise thing for Gandalf to do was ride straight to Rivendell on that warp-speed horse, get help from Elves like Glorfindel, and head straight back out to the wild to both search for Frodo and waylay the Nine. Which is what happened, but only after a ridiculous diversion to the troll fells and a delayed journey on foot by Gandalf. That is so silly that he might as well have gone back to Bree and gotten drunk for a couple weeks and left Strider on his own.

So it's not logical, but it is dramatic that 1) this is an ancient tower of historical importance, 2) Gandalf fought the Nazgul here to a draw, and 3) Frodo gets stabbed here and not just in any random place in the wild. I think that's what happened: Tolkien decided on weaving the plot into the larger historical and geographical picture at the expense of logic, and takes advantage of the lull to bring up the Beren and Luthien story, which is foundational to the history of Middle-earth and has a distant thread to both Strider and Frodo. It makes Weathertop memorable vs some random Nowhere place that Frodo gets stabbed.


Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 27 2015, 11:49pm

Post #4 of 10 (2107 views)
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I can really feel this conclusion, CG [In reply to] Can't Post


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So it's not logical, but it is dramatic that 1) this is an ancient tower of historical importance, 2) Gandalf fought the Nazgul here to a draw, and 3) Frodo gets stabbed here and not just in any random place in the wild. I think that's what happened: Tolkien decided on weaving the plot into the larger historical and geographical picture at the expense of logic, and takes advantage of the lull to bring up the Beren and Luthien story, which is foundational to the history of Middle-earth and has a distant thread to both Strider and Frodo. It makes Weathertop memorable vs some random Nowhere place that Frodo gets stabbed.





and when you look at it from 'Tolkien studies' sort of viewpoint, it makes more sense than the 'Tolkien reader' standpoint as far as logic. It definitely serves a deep story service, in allowing Strider to let us glimpse the ancient past, the foreshadowing (well, in hope) of the previous union of Men and Elves - all in a sort of feral setting, the wild.


And in Frido's own journey sense, I think Weathertop is an unforgettable, life-changing event. Thus the plot recognizes this.








CuriousG
Half-elven


Feb 28 2015, 12:19am

Post #5 of 10 (2103 views)
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Before and after Weathertop [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
And in Frodo's own journey sense, I think Weathertop is an unforgettable, life-changing event. Thus the plot recognizes this.


Much agreement! I think of Frodo's life as before/after Weathertop, a more profoundly formative experience than any other in the whole story. I think a pivotal event needs a venue.


sador
Half-elven


Mar 2 2015, 3:32pm

Post #6 of 10 (2041 views)
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In the films, at least there was the advantage of getting the hobbits some weapons. [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Tell us again, Mr. Strider, why are we going to this dangerous place?
In the drafts, IIRC, there was also a cache of food which Trotter took from there...
But it does seem that it is mainly sightseeing. Unless Aragorn somehow gains strength from the place.

Anyway, it would havebeen advisable for him to climb the summit alone and look around, wouldn't it?

2. What effect does this twin revelation (of the history, and of the fact that Sam knows it) have on Strider’s perception of the Hobbits?
The first, hardly a thing - although it should have tipped a clever hobbit (Merry?) that Strider was somehow connected to the remnants of the great people which Bombadil told them about after rescuing them from the Barrow.
But Sam knowing the history must have astonished Strider indeed.

3. How does it affect your perception of the Hobbits, Strider, and Middle Earth history?

It should have tipped me off. But I don't think I got much from my first reading of the Bombadil chapters.

4. Again, what was Strider thinking? Why wouldn’t the “greatest woodsman of our age” go alone, in stealth, to see what there is to see, leaving his precious charges in the sheltered hollow?

Oh - I've just said that before. Sorry for not paying attention before replying!

But it appears that he was too eager to find news from Gandalf, anyway - so perhaps we shouldn't count on his stealth?

5. Who’s counting Black Riders? Which 5 are these? Where are the other 4?

We don't know their names, do we?

I suppose you meant to check out if we remember that Gandalf says later that four Riders followed him to the Ettenmoors, and five attacked the camp.
The other four will only return to join in the final stage of the pursuit of Frodo and Asfaloth.


Darkstone
Immortal


Mar 2 2015, 6:30pm

Post #7 of 10 (2052 views)
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"I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations except..." [In reply to] Can't Post

”Oh, wicked, bad, naughty Zoot! She has been setting alight to our beacon, which, I just remembered, is grail-shaped. It's not the first time we've had this problem.”
-Monty Python and the Holy Grail (1975)


1.Tell us again, Mr. Strider, why are we going to this dangerous place?

This action, along with later ones like setting fire to a ring-shaped beacon, is really so foolhardy as to hardly be unintentional. I think Strider finally decided that a confrontation had become inevitable and felt Weathertop would be the best place to make a stand. After all, it *was* part of the defense of the Men of the West against “the evil that came out of Angmar”, and the nature of that defense may have not only been just physical, but perhaps had some spiritual and/or magical aspects as well. So Strider was looking for the best defensive ground in the area to make a stand, and Amon Sul was it.

Was he right?

Well, they survived.


2. What effect does this twin revelation (of the history,….

”Sons of Buckland, of Tuckborough. My brothers. I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me! A day may come, when the courage of hobbits fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of the Conspiracy, but it is not this day! An hour of badgers and shattered teacups when the age of hobbits comes crashing down! But it is not this day! This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good earth, I bid you, stand, hobbits of the Shire!”


…and of the fact that Sam knows it) have on Strider’s perception of the Hobbits?

It’s one more little hint that stealth-hero Sam is more than what he seems, that small hints in earlier chapters come full circle later (Chapter 1: “Mr. Bilbo has learned him his letters- meaning no harm, mark you.”), and that Bilbo and Strider are friends so there’s now a personal connection between Strider and Sam.


3. How does it affect your perception of the Hobbits,…

Hobbits really are amazing creatures!


…Strider…

Strider seems more bard than warrior.


… and Middle Earth history?

Part of the attraction of the L.R. is, I think, due to the glimpses of a large history in the background: an attraction like that of viewing far off an unvisited island, or seeing the towers of a distant city gleaming in a sunlit mist. To go there is to destroy the magic, unless new unattainable vistas are again revealed. Also many of the older legends are purely 'mythological', and nearly all are grim and tragic: a long account of the disasters that destroyed the beauty of the Ancient World, from the darkening of Valinor to the Downfall of Númenor and the flight of Elendil.
-Letter # 247


Upon reaching the base of Weathertop, they stop in a “sheltered hollow.” Leaving Sam and Pippin with the pony and luggage, Strider takes Merry and Frodo to the top.

4. Again, what was Strider thinking? Why wouldn’t the “greatest woodsman of our age” go alone, in stealth, to see what there is to see, leaving his precious charges in the sheltered hollow?



First, apparently stealth was not an option:

They decided to make for the top at once, while the daylight was broad. Concealment was no longer possible, and they could only hope that no enemy or spy was observing them.


And secondly, Strider had no idea how long it might take the hobbits (not to mention the weak scrawny pony) to make the strenuous climb. In the event:

After half an hour's plodding climb Strider reached the crown of the hill; Frodo and Merry followed, tired and breathless. The last slope had been steep and rocky.

Moving Ringbearer Frodo up, along with the seemingly most able hobbit Merry to leave with Frodo at the summit, would seem to be a priority. The less valuable Sam and Pippin could be brought up later with Bill, and if Strider, having seen the climb, judged Bill unable to make it, the pony could be left hobbled in the hollow as an Early Nazgul Warning System. (Come to think of it, that’s exactly the function of Sam, Pippin, and Bill as Strider takes the Ringbearer up the hill.)


5. Who’s counting Black Riders?

Anybody but Bill, who doesn’t possess the requisite number of fingers.


Which 5 are these?

Abbott and Costello from the east, Curly, Moe, and Larry from the west.

Oct. 6. Frodo reaches Weathertop observed by the Nazgul. Aragorn sees [three Riders] coming back from a patrol of the Road west of Weathertop.
-The Hunt for the Ring


'I do not know, but it seems clear to me that this is what happened. Their Captain remained in secret away south of Bree, while two rode ahead through the village, and four more invaded the Shire. But when these were foiled in Bree and at Crickhollow, they returned to their Captain with tidings, and so left the Road unguarded for a while, except by their spies. The Captain then sent some eastward straight across country, and he himself with the rest rode along the Road in great wrath.’
-The Council of Elrond

So make that *Captain* Moe.


Where are the other 4?

Groucho, Chico, Harpo, and Zeppo are probably still cleaning Buckland bounders from their horses’ hooves.


Sam and Pippin have been collecting firewood and water from a nearby spring,…

Somehow I’m reminded of the water-carriers on Reno Hill during Custer’s Battle of the Little Bighorn and we all know how that turned out.


... where they unfortunately trampled many previous footprints. Strider analyzes what remains, and concludes that some are previous Rangers, but some are made by “heavy boots”, a Very Bad Sign.

Re “many booted feet', how many was “many”? At least two, but no more than nine? (Or rather 4, but no more than 18, given each Nazgul had two legs. Or did they?) Not “most”, so not the majority.


Strider gives them (and us) an analysis of the capabilities of these adversaries:

For the black horses can see, and the Riders can use men and other creatures as spies, as we found at Bree.


So could the Black Riders see through the eyes of not only animals, but Men? Kinda gives a really creepy connotation to the term “Riders”.


They themselves do not see the world of light as we do, but our shapes cast shadows in their minds, which only the noon sun destroys;

O Sun, to tell thee how I hate thy beams,
That bring to my remembrance from what state
I fell, how glorious once above thy sphere,
Till pride and worse ambition threw me down.

-John Milton, Paradise Lost


…and in the dark they perceive many signs and forms that are hidden from us:

Dark matter?


And at all times they smell the blood of living things, desiring and hating it.

The servants of Satan:

First, Moloch, horrid King, besmeared with blood
-ibid

Senses, too, there are other than sight or smell. We can feel their presence – it troubled our hearts, as soon as we came here, and before we saw them;…

“I see dead people.”
-The Sixth Sense (1999)


…they feel ours more keenly.

”I see live people”


’Also,’ he added, and his voice sank to a whisper, ‘the Ring draws them.’

”I see non-people”


6. Are these capabilities consistent with their behavior in Book 1?

They seem more people-friendly in the first part.


How about their later appearances as Flying Nazgul?

Hard to smell blood from an altitude. Plus even the most novice of flyers knows to keep the sun behind them.


Aside from their mounts, what has changed?

They’ve had to go back to Mordor naked, on foot, soaking wet. It’d bring out the worst in most people, and for the Nazgul that’s saying something.


Terrified, the party hunkers down in the dell, with a fire, and Strider keeps terror at bay by telling tales of the Elder Days.

The tales in The Silmarillioin are just so cheerful and bright!


He appears about to tell about Gil-galad and Elendil, “because it concerns us closely,”…

Yeah. They both died by the hand of Mordor.


…but suddenly breaks off, observing that “the servants of the Enemy are at hand,”…

Thank you Captain Obvious.


… so it's dangerous to speak of these things.

“Speak of the Devil” and all that. Maybe if they’d spent their time speakiing of Gandalf, rangers, and Elf Lords some form of cavalry other than the black rider sort might have shown up.


7. What is the danger?

Your ears always burn when people talk about you and that small amount of fire would merely make the Nazgul angry.


Instead, we hear in some detail about Beren and Lúthien.

“He dies, she dies, everybody dies.” Doesn’t Strider know any tales that end “And they lived happily ever after, to the end of their days”?


8. It’s a wonderful story, and perfect for keeping the Hobbits distracted from their danger.

What better way to distract the hobbits from worrying about the evil power of Sauron than telling them a tale about the greater power of Melkor?

And you think Frodo would get the hint about the silmaril being bitten off while in Beren’s hand: "Remove jewelry prior to encountering things with pointy sharp teeth, even if they only have six of them."


From a literary perspective, is this too much of a diversion at this point?

After the diversion of Bombadil anything else is pithy and straight to the point by comparison.


Why is Tolkien giving us the story in this much detail (twice, even, in verse and prose)?

Because like the story of Aragorn and Arwen it’s “an allegory of naked hope”:

…he [WH Auden] thinks Aragorn-Arwen unnecessary & perfunctory. I hope the fragment of the 'saga' will cure him. I still find it poignant: an allegory of naked hope. I hope you do..."
-Letter to Rayner Unwin, 12 May 1955


I leave you now in suspense....

Actually I’m left in total confusion:

But I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence.
-Forward

******************************************
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a wonderful town!!!
Mount Doom blew up,
And the Black Tower's down!!
The orcs all fell in a hole in the ground!
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a heckuva town!!!

-Lord of the Rings: The Musical, music by Leonard Bernstein, lyrics by Betty Comden and Adolph Green


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Mar 2 2015, 7:49pm

Post #8 of 10 (2028 views)
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Late answers [In reply to] Can't Post


1. Tell us again, Mr. Strider, why are we going to this dangerous place?

I think this is among the most debated questions of Tolkien-fandom (Balrog wings, anyone?). While a logical examination begs us ask 'why', in my own opinion, and from a literary POV, I ask 'why not?'. Given the situation as we know it, what other choice would we make in Strider's place? While I harbour and undying love for Tolkien and all his works, here it would seem that the tale runs a bit thin and allows us to glimpse the underlying plot workings. All the reasons that have been given for their stay at Weathertop (Among them: Drama, the stabbing, character development, and linkages with the larger history) are perfectly valid, and in my 'affectionate scrutiny' of the tale, I am left to conclude that this is just one instance of plot mechanics overtaking the import of the aesthetics.

So the question becomes... which of the proposed reasons was Tolkien's?

3. How does it affect your perception of the Hobbits, Strider, and Middle Earth history?

It adds to the expectaion of something 'more' to the tale, and indulges my delusion in the fantasy that there must be an answer to all my questions...somewhere.

4. Again, what was Strider thinking? Why wouldn’t the “greatest woodsman of our age” go alone, in stealth, to see what there is to see, leaving his precious charges in the sheltered hollow?

Plot. (See #1)

5. Who’s counting Black Riders? Which 5 are these? Where are the other 4?

Following Gandalf. Five sound pretty dangerous though since we have only faced one or two at a time with our hobbit friends.

6. Are these capabilities consistent with their behavior in Book 1? How about their later appearances as Flying Nazgul? Aside from their mounts, what has changed?

The shadows begin to take shape as physical meance, and, as is inevitable, they shed some of their mystique. The creatures we have met in the previous chapters are intangible expressions of fear. We fear what they 'might be able to do', and they are all the more effective for it. If I migth draw a parallell, it would be to Sauron-- the ultimate villain of the tale. Even in his non-presence, he still manages to terrify us and our heroes effectively. It is a good trick in which Tolkien succeeds brilliantly in pulling off. Similar treatment is given to the Nazgul, but the attack gives substance to the nightmare Tolkien has conjured for us. Now that we know some of their capability, we can begin to understand and rationalise it away. Fear is irrational, and knowledge its mortal foe.

Though they never lose all their terror; for me, this is the point when it began to wane, and now that I have more knowledge of the Nazgul and their subsequent actions, I understand why they were kept away from the main tale and played no more important part. In studying the shadows in which they reside, we notice the light behind us and the boundary that separates us from them.

7. What is the danger?

'Speak of the Devil and he shall appear.' Old-folk wisdom.

Also, talking about the danger could magnify it in your mind if you think too much about it, or cripple further action by wasting time in planning.

8. It’s a wonderful story, and perfect for keeping the Hobbits distracted from their danger. From a literary perspective, is this too much of a diversion at this point? Why is Tolkien giving us the story in this much detail (twice, even, in verse and prose)?

He loves his world, and if we don't why are we visiting it? Who wouldn't be glad to hear more about soemthing they love, or to talk more about it? It seems a bit like going to an Art Exposition and telling the painter what you would have done.


Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Mar 2 2015, 7:52pm

Post #9 of 10 (2027 views)
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It seems a bit plot-heavy, yes. [In reply to] Can't Post

It works well if we accept it as a plot point. I am one to accept this small, story-telling hiccup on faith. I said more in reply to another post, but I'm out of time to re-type it all. In summary, all I can say is this:

Tolkien never led me to a rotten story!

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Brethil
Half-elven


Mar 5 2015, 1:03am

Post #10 of 10 (1996 views)
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Good point Rem! // [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Tolkien never led me to a rotten story!








 
 

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