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**LotR: Fellowship of the Ring, 11.3 Nothing like a good guide! **

Elizabeth
Half-elven


Feb 26 2015, 2:42am

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**LotR: Fellowship of the Ring, 11.3 Nothing like a good guide! ** Can't Post

As soon as the roads are no longer lined with locals enjoying the best newsday in years, Strider leads the hobbits off into the wilderness. Now, these Hobbits have some recent experience with wilderness, none of it good. A major concern, especially for Hobbits, is what they may be able to eat. As Strider puts it, “It is the food and stores that trouble me. We cannot count on getting anything to eat between here and Rivendell, except what we take with us; and we ought to take plenty to spare; for we may be delayed, or forced to go roundabout, far out of the direct way.”

1. Isn’t Strider a great hunter, capable of living off the land for a long time? The movie shows him with a freshly-killed deer. What is the concern?


Quote
‘This is where we leave the open and take to cover,’ said Strider.

‘Not a “short cut”, I hope,’ said Pippin. ‘Our last short cut through woods nearly ended in disaster.’

‘Ah, but you had not got me with you then,’ laughed Strider. ‘My cuts, short or long, don’t go wrong.’ He took a look up and down the Road. No one was in sight; and he led the way quickly down towards the wooded valley.


Our own beloved guide squire, in a previous read-through, provided a set of maps I cannot improve upon.

2. Are you a hiker? Ever had the experience of taking a “short cut” that goes wrong? Nowadays many of us who love hiking have books, detailed topographic maps, internet references and other aids. But the advantage of a guide for whom the terrain is almost a “back yard” must have been a great reassurance to the Hobbits. Comments?


Quote
Whether because of Strider’s skill or for some other reason, they saw no sign and heard no sound of any other living thing all that day: neither two-footed, except birds; nor four-footed, except one fox and a few squirrels.


The hikers have to pass through the infamous “Midge-water Marshes,” in which the Hobbits are besieged with insects. I have been in places with serious insect problems: woods in Alaska where the mosquito netting we wore was covered on the outside by so many mosquitos (which some Alaskan residents call “the state bird”) that it’s hard to see out, and the “sand flies” of the New Zealand fjordlands, which were sufficiently vicious as to drive Captain Cook’s ships away when they first visited. Sam’s agonizing cry, "What do they live on when they can’t get hobbit?" really rings true.



Having survived the Midge-water Marshes, they then head for Weathertop Hill. Late at night, they see “a light in the eastern sky: it flashed and faded many times. It was not the dawn, for that was still some hours off.”

3. We now know it was a battle between Gandalf and some Black Riders on Weathertop. But what is the first-time reader to think? Is this significantly different from normal thunder-storm lightening? Is there anything in the text to arouse your concern?”








Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Feb 26 2015, 4:55am

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I got lost hiking once. [In reply to] Can't Post

It was in an area I thought I was pretty familiar with, but I was on a little-used "unimproved trail" and I must have stepped off it onto a "social trail" that then petered out. I had a rough idea where I was, and I knew if I found a stream and followed it down I would eventually come out at a creek I knew that paralleled the highway. So I found a stream and down I went. It was an uncomfortable scramble over big boulders, but a mile or so later I came out on a very populated trail with lots of tourists, including toddlers in strollers. It was kind of surreal.

It's not quite the same as the hobbits' experience, because I did have a pretty good picture in my mind of where I was. But I definitely couldn't find the trail for a while. A guide would have been helpful, just for those few feet where I got off the trail.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Darkstone
Immortal


Feb 26 2015, 4:18pm

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"Run if you hear banjos." [In reply to] Can't Post

He had bought a large map representing the sea,
Without the least vestige of land:
And the crew were much pleased when they found it to be
A map they could all understand.

"What's the good of Mercator's North Poles and Equators,
Tropics, Zones, and Meridian Lines?"
So the Bellman would cry: and the crew would reply
"They are merely conventional signs!

"Other maps are such shapes, with their islands and capes!
But we've got our brave Captain to thank
(So the crew would protest) "that he's bought us the best—
A perfect and absolute blank!"
-Lewis Carroll, The Hunting of the Snark


1. Isn’t Strider a great hunter, capable of living off the land for a long time?

Yes.


The movie shows him with a freshly-killed deer.

The meat from that deer could feed them for a week. (Probably less since they *are* hobbits.) It's cool weather (Strider's leaving the skin on.) so it shouldn't spoil too quickly. Maybe ten days if Strider keeps it dry. Indeed, due to enzymes breaking down the tissue, venison actually tastes better after the second or third day of aging. (*Ripe* meat off the bone!) Just make sure it's cooked thoroughly when you eat it. Won't be much left of the deer once they get through with it. (Strider *is* a ranger!) Probably eat the organs and marrow, and the bones will make good soup stock.


What is the concern?

Time. It takes time to find a spoor trail, track the animal, kill it, gut it, drag it back, dress it. Plus the scent of blood will attract any predators in the area and the Black Riders seem to have very good sniffers!

Trapping has much the same problem. It takes time to find animal trails, set up traps along them, wait a few hours, then make the rounds to check for caught game. Of course predators may have already found and eaten your catch before you get back to the trap.

Plus either hunting or trapping means leaving the hobbits alone for a substantial period. Kinda like leaving a basket of puppies alone in the forest and expecting them to still be there when you get back.

Still, as a ranger and custodian of the land Strider probably has experience in game management in the area and may already have knowledge of the general territory and movements of any mature deer in the area and anyway thinning out the excess buck population during autumn would be one of his jobs as a wilderness range so double duty!

Finally, from a couple of passages from the text we see the moon is waxing:

At the day's end they came to a stream that wandered down from the hills to lose itself in the stagnant marshland, and they went up along its banks while the light lasted. It was already night when at last they halted and made their camp under some stunted alder-trees by the shores of the stream. Ahead there loomed now against the dusky sky the bleak and treeless backs of the hills. That night they set a watch, and Strider, it seemed, did not sleep at all. The moon was waxing, and in the early night-hours a cold grey light lay on the land.

And:

As Strider was speaking they watched his strange eager face, dimly lit in the red glow of the wood-fire. His eyes shone, and his voice was rich and deep. Above him was a black starry sky. Suddenly a pale light appeared over the crown of Weathertop behind him. The waxing moon was climbing slowly above the hill that overshadowed them, and the stars above the hill-top faded.

At night game tends to be less active under a gibbous or full moon so another concern is that to increase his chances of success Strider is going to have to hunt during the day and lose a whole day’s travel.

Aren’t you sorry you asked?


2. Are you a hiker?

Not as much as I used to be.


Ever had the experience of taking a “short cut” that goes wrong?

Back when I was in grade school I took a “short cut” home through the mesquite trees and an hour and a half later ended up back at school. Had a lot of fun, though. Saw a bull snake, played under a bridge, ran across some mysterious paw-prints, discovered a few old bird nests, and found a place under some bushes with flattened grass where surely a bear, or maybe a tiger, or probably a stray dog slept the night.

I tended to get lost often on my way home. If I got home after dark Mom would meet me at the door with a switch.


Nowadays many of us who love hiking have books, detailed topographic maps, internet references and other aids. But the advantage of a guide for whom the terrain is almost a “back yard” must have been a great reassurance to the Hobbits. Comments?

Yes and no. One problem might be that Strider was so familiar he didn’t think to explain where they were, where they were going, what that strange noise in the bushes was, why they suddenly seemed to be going in the opposite direction from where they were going a few minutes earlier, and, of course, when they were going to stop to eat.


Whether because of Strider’s skill or for some other reason, they saw no sign and heard no sound of any other living thing all that day: neither two-footed, except birds; nor four-footed, except one fox and a few squirrels.

Ah, the taste of squirrel! No thanks! I remember as a kid, often the only meat on the dinner table was what I shot with a .22: squirrel, rabbit, possum. Hunting in the rain was just miserable! (Ya gotta eat!) I guess that’s why I don’t care much for hunting: It was a chore that I *had* to do.


3. We now know it was a battle between Gandalf and some Black Riders on Weathertop. But what is the first-time reader to think?

I remember hoping that it was Gildor and his band fighting some orcs! But I figured it was more likely to be storm giants like in The Hobbit.


Is this significantly different from normal thunder-storm lightening?

It is like lightning that leaps up from the hill-tops.

Interestingly physicist Heinz Wolfram Kasemir (“Calibrate! Calibrate!”) first theorized about upward streaming lightning in a paper a couple of years just before the publication of LOTR.

Coincidence?!?!

Well, probably.


Is there anything in the text to arouse your concern?

'What is the light?' he said to Strider, who had risen, and was standing, gazing ahead into the night.
'I do not know,' Strider answered.


If ranger Strider don’t know what it is, I’m gonna be concerned!

******************************************
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a wonderful town!!!
Mount Doom blew up,
And the Black Tower's down!!
The orcs all fell in a hole in the ground!
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a heckuva town!!!

-Lord of the Rings: The Musical, music by Leonard Bernstein, lyrics by Betty Comden and Adolph Green


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Feb 26 2015, 5:59pm

Post #4 of 20 (3043 views)
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Darkstone started it [In reply to] Can't Post

2. Are you a hiker?

Yes, I follow my two Yorkies around the block, otherwise I wouldn’t know how to get back home. Crazy

2. Ever had the experience of taking a “short cut” that goes wrong?

Yes, I took a short cut into the kitchen, but forgot what I went in there for.

Took a short cut into the family room, but forgot what I went in there for.

Took a short cut into the bed room but I forgot what I went in there for.

By this time I was so pooped I took a nap. (I remember how to take those!) Frown

3. We now know it was a battle between Gandalf and some Black Riders on Weathertop.

“Some” = Nine?




Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 26 2015, 11:40pm

Post #5 of 20 (3029 views)
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Guide on [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
1. Isn’t Strider a great hunter, capable of living off the land for a long time? The movie shows him with a freshly-killed deer. What is the concern?
Darkstone thoroughly summed this all up.


2. Are you a hiker? Ever had the experience of taking a “short cut” that goes wrong? Nowadays many of us who love hiking have books, detailed topographic maps, internet references and other aids. But the advantage of a guide for whom the terrain is almost a “back yard” must have been a great reassurance to the Hobbits. Comments?
I have in the past quite a lot. One memorable time I hiked to the top and around the other side of the small mountain I lived on the side of. Getting home at dark, had the pleasure of realizing I lost my keys someplace. I had to backtrack and track myself in the dusk, and a few hours later found my keys near a bunch of mushrooms. So I blame the fairies for pickpocketing my keys.
And yes, terrain you know becomes second nature. Though even known terrain can change with seasons. I don't know of our Hobbits felt any assurance with Strider yet: my guess is they were waiting for the next disaster (which isn't far off, they don't have long to wait) and feeling pretty weak and tiny in a big scary world. This isn't their backyard anymore, and just because someone else claims to know it would not comfort me, so I get that.


3. We now know it was a battle between Gandalf and some Black Riders on Weathertop. But what is the first-time reader to think? Is this significantly different from normal thunder-storm lightening? Is there anything in the text to arouse your concern?

The fact that it arouses Strider's concern would concern me.


(And your post title makes me think of Pippin: NOTHING like a good guide.) Wink












(This post was edited by Brethil on Feb 26 2015, 11:50pm)


CuriousG
Half-elven


Feb 27 2015, 12:54am

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Try hiking "off trail" in Boston [In reply to] Can't Post

When I first moved to Boston, a city with almost no grid structure to its rambling streets, I often went on long walks to explore the city and would take "short cuts" home that would get me terribly lost, including at night, when I once had to flag down a policeman for directions home (who thought I was an idiot, since I was only 1 mile away).

Fortunately while growing up in Colorado, I none of my hiking shortcuts in the wild came to bad ends--or to carnivorous willow trees. They usually led to a better way somewhere, or an understanding of why no one went that way--it was full of cactus!

Strider, food, and hobbits: living off the land not only takes time to get the food, you don't get a whole lot of food in the process, so you're not well-fed. But I think Strider's main concern was the time it would take. They needed to get to Rivendell ASAP, and didn't have a lot of time for diversions and learning Boy Scout tricks.

Weathertop fireworks: the book's description is brief and clearly something far away that isn't discussed at length, so on first read, I didn't make much of it. I went back and read it with relish when Gandalf spilled the beans in Rivendell, and I still wish there was more detail.


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Feb 27 2015, 1:29am

Post #7 of 20 (3020 views)
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"It didn't seem important at the time." [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree that the Weathertop fireworks are only mentioned incidentally, and I think that's deliberate. We're seeing this (as most of the tale) from the Hobbits point of view. Several answers in this thread noted, "if Strider's worried, I need to be worried! But they didn't see it that way at the time.








Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 27 2015, 7:55pm

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Getting lost [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
When I first moved to Boston, a city with almost no grid structure to its rambling streets, I often went on long walks to explore the city and would take "short cuts" home that would get me terribly lost, including at night, when I once had to flag down a policeman for directions home (who thought I was an idiot, since I was only 1 mile away).
Fortunately while growing up in Colorado, I none of my hiking shortcuts in the wild came to bad ends--or to carnivorous willow trees. They usually led to a better way somewhere, or an understanding of why no one went that way--it was full of cactus!


I think a lot of old cities are like that, with centuries of hodge-podge building and adding. I loved that show that was on The History Channel for a while - Cities of the Underworld - that would show the layers and complexity of old cities. Long and short, you can still get lost as they defy direction or common sense.



Strider, food, and hobbits: living off the land not only takes time to get the food, you don't get a whole lot of food in the process, so you're not well-fed. But I think Strider's main concern was the time it would take. They needed to get to Rivendell ASAP, and didn't have a lot of time for diversions and learning Boy Scout tricks.

Darkstone laid out the hunting stuff for us. The other monkey wrench is that while Strider in the wild, on his own, could take a game bird or a squirrel or rabbit (character groundwork for our TWD's Darryl, clearly), providing for a group is a whole different logistic.



Weathertop fireworks: the book's description is brief and clearly something far away that isn't discussed at length, so on first read, I didn't make much of it. I went back and read it with relish when Gandalf spilled the beans in Rivendell, and I still wish there was more detail.

JRRT is good at that stuff, letting you want to see more and thus imagining it on your own. That idea of 'glimpses' is tantalizing.









(This post was edited by Brethil on Feb 27 2015, 7:56pm)


Terazed
Bree

Feb 28 2015, 5:26pm

Post #9 of 20 (2955 views)
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Did Tolkien make a typo? [In reply to] Can't Post


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Finally, from a couple of passages from the text we see the moon is waxing:

At the day's end they came to a stream that wandered down from the hills to lose itself in the stagnant marshland, and they went up along its banks while the light lasted. It was already night when at last they halted and made their camp under some stunted alder-trees by the shores of the stream. Ahead there loomed now against the dusky sky the bleak and treeless backs of the hills. That night they set a watch, and Strider, it seemed, did not sleep at all. The moon was waxing, and in the early night-hours a cold grey light lay on the land.

And:

As Strider was speaking they watched his strange eager face, dimly lit in the red glow of the wood-fire. His eyes shone, and his voice was rich and deep. Above him was a black starry sky. Suddenly a pale light appeared over the crown of Weathertop behind him. The waxing moon was climbing slowly above the hill that overshadowed them, and the stars above the hill-top faded.

to which I will add:

Quote
'Look!' said Merry. 'The moon is rising: it must be getting late.'


These passages always drive me nuts. I always keep track of the moon as I am into astronomy and the phase of the moon decides when I can and can not observe. The new moon rises just after sunrise and sets just after sunset. The waxing quarter moon rises at noon and sets at midnight. The waxing gibbous moon rises in the mid afternoon and sets in the early hours of the morning. The full moon rises at sunset and sets at sunrise. The waning gibbous moon rises a few hours before midnight and sets in the midmorning. The waning quarter moon rises at midnight and sets at noon. The waning crescent rises just before sunrise and sets just before sunset.

Did Tolkien make a typo and mean the waning moon? I grant that when they approach the Weather Hills from the west the hills will delay moonrise a bit depending on how close they are and high the hills are. However on Weathertop they are camped on the north slope and should have no problem seeing the moonrise and follow it up to the zenith which is when it would reach the crown of Weathertop. For the waxing crescent that would be just after noon. For the quarter moon it would be sunset. For the gibbous moon it would halfway between sunset and midnight. For the full moon it would be midnight. For the waning gibbous it would be midway between midnight and sunrise. The the waning quarter moon it would be sunrise.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Feb 28 2015, 8:29pm

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You should have met the late Fritz Leiber [In reply to] Can't Post

Fantasy writer Fritz Leiber (Conjure Wife; The Adventures of Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser) was also an amateur astronomer. You would have gotten along fine!

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Feb 28 2015, 9:05pm

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"Halfway between sunset and midnight" [In reply to] Can't Post

...is when, as you say, the waxing gibbous moon would rise. It's early October, just past the equinox. Depending on how early the party was rising, I can easily believe it was bedtime when the moon rose. Depending how high they are on the north slope and the shape of the hills, I can certainly imagine their view of the eastern horizon would be impaired.

Phases of the moon are one thing Tolkien was almost obsessive about. He based his observations of the moon, planets, etc., on a specific year (1942, I think, though I could be misremembering) and used them to coordinate everyone's movements when they split up into groups.








Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Feb 28 2015, 10:47pm

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Phases of the Moon in 'The Hobbit' [In reply to] Can't Post

I've posted about this elsewhere, but if we combine the lunar phases in The Hobbit during Midsummer's Eve and on Durin's Day and combine it with the Shire Reckoning calendar from The Lord of the Rings, we can easily determine the most likely date for Durin's Day in The Hobbit (22 October). It works out perfectly!

Later places the Battle of Five Armies too close to Yule, not allowing Bilbo and Gandalf enough time to reach Beorn's home before then(especially in the winter). Earlier is too close to the company's arrival at Lake-town.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Feb 28 2015, 10:54pm)


Terazed
Bree

Mar 1 2015, 6:19am

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October 6, 4042 BC? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
"Halfway between sunset and midnight"...is when, as you say, the waxing gibbous moon would rise. It's early October, just past the equinox. Depending on how early the party was rising, I can easily believe it was bedtime when the moon rose. Depending how high they are on the north slope and the shape of the hills, I can certainly imagine their view of the eastern horizon would be impaired.


Halfway between sunset and midnight would be when the waxing gibbous moon would be at it's zenith (it's highest point and due south in the Northern hemisphere). The waxing gibbous moon would rise halfway between noon and sunset.


Quote
Phases of the moon are one thing Tolkien was almost obsessive about. He based his observations of the moon, planets, etc., on a specific year (1942, I think, though I could be misremembering) and used them to coordinate everyone's movements when they split up into groups.


I knew that Tolkien was good at using phases of the moon to tell time but I had not realized he was that obsessive.

The geometry makes things a little more difficult to visualize. Their camp is on the north face of Weathertop and therefore the crown of Weathertop, where they saw the moon rising, would be due south. That would be the point at which the moon reaches it's zenith and starts to set. If Tolkien put the camp a slightly to the west of due north it would make more sense as the moon would still appear to be rising over the crown of Weathertop. Also the mountain would block their view of the moon's rising till just before it reached it's zenith. Then they could think that it was rising fairly late at night even though it had actually started to rise before sunset.

For fun I did look 6000 years back from 1954 in Oxford and the closest I could find was October 6, 4042 BC. There was a 13 day old moon (just short of full) that would have reached it's zenith at 10:50 PM (that would be when it would reach the crown of Weathertop if the camp was due North). Interestingly that year it's zenith was only be 23 degrees above the horizon as opposed to the 54 degrees it was last October at my latitude. This makes it more plausible that they would not see it rise until it was near it's zenith.

There are other candidate years depending on the exact phase of the moon that he meant.


Riven Delve
Tol Eressea


Mar 1 2015, 3:56pm

Post #14 of 20 (2909 views)
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Good guides [In reply to] Can't Post

  
1. Isn’t Strider a great hunter, capable of living off the land for a long time? The movie shows him with a freshly-killed deer. What is the concern?


Strider himself answers this question later in the chapter:

Quote
There is food in the wild...berry, root, and herb; and I have some skill as a hunter at need.... But gathering and catching food is long and weary work, and we need haste.





Our own beloved guide squire, in a previous read-through, provided a set of maps I cannot improve upon.

2. Are you a hiker? Ever had the experience of taking a “short cut” that goes wrong? Nowadays many of us who love hiking have books, detailed topographic maps, internet references and other aids. But the advantage of a guide for whom the terrain is almost a “back yard” must have been a great reassurance to the Hobbits.

Love the maps! Smile The positioning of the Weather Hills is helpful to how I picture scenes I the chapter.


You don't need to be on foot to take a shortcut that goes wrong--I've done it lots of times while driving. In fact, I've taken rural roads I wasn't familiar with on purpose just to see if I could find my way back to civilization. (Always worked eventually, but then again there were no Black Riders chasing me.) But now that the GPS has come of age, we have our "good guide"...


Comments?
"My cuts, short or long, don't go wrong," says Aragorn. Sure, he's laughing when he says it, as he leads them into the utter aloneness of the wilderness...but I feel the hair on the back of my neck stand on end. Sam ought to be speaking up again about whether or not this fellow can be trusted. Shocked Wink


3. We now know it was a battle between Gandalf and some Black Riders on Weathertop. But what is the first-time reader to think? Is this significantly different from normal thunder-storm lightening? Is there anything in the text to arouse your concern?”


I'm pretty sure I assumed it was a thunderstorm, but, like others, I was concerned that Strider was worried. Because FOREBODING.






“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”



(This post was edited by Riven Delve on Mar 1 2015, 4:01pm)


sador
Half-elven


Mar 2 2015, 2:20pm

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Neither hiker nor hunter, and late [In reply to] Can't Post

Just wanted to say thank you for the link to squire's maps. And regarding question no. 3:

3. We now know it was a battle between Gandalf and some Black Riders on Weathertop. But what is the first-time reader to think? Is this significantly different from normal thunder-storm lightening? Is there anything in the text to arouse your concern?
Nothing serious at this point; I did learn to suspect Strider's reassurances since, but that was long after I knew well enough what the lightning was.



Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Mar 2 2015, 7:01pm

Post #16 of 20 (2889 views)
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How many Black Riders faced Gandalf... [In reply to] Can't Post

Well... I can't remember anywhere there being a specified number, but now I'm wondering...

If all Nine were there, then Gandalf faced the W-K. The impression I took away from Gandalf's words about not haveing been 'matched against him', or something similar' makes me doubt this, but I could be wrong...

If we accept the fact that two Nazgul (as noted in some chronologies) attacked the Pony, then wouldn't some of them be spread out scouting the land to find the hobbits after losing them?

More questions than answers, I'm afraid...Unsure

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Mar 2 2015, 7:03pm

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Yes, my thoughts exactly. [In reply to] Can't Post

This is one of those things that delight my inner geek-- re-reading the books and having that 'A-ha!' sort of moment with the advantage of hindsight.Laugh

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Mar 2 2015, 8:41pm

Post #18 of 20 (2886 views)
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Nine Riders... Here's the quote [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf speaking of Weathertop:


Quote
'At sunrise I escaped and fled towards the north. I could not hope to do more. It was impossible to find you, Frodo, in the wilderness, and it would have been folly to try with all the Nine at my heels... But I hoped to draw some of them off...' -The Council of Elrond (my emphasis)


BTW if we read this and the preceding paragraph we learn that Gandalf fought the Nine ALL NIGHT....Mad Ohh, I[m sooo tired!!




(This post was edited by Bracegirdle on Mar 2 2015, 8:48pm)


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Mar 3 2015, 2:09pm

Post #19 of 20 (2871 views)
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Ah, thank-you! [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the quote. I had thought it strange that he had faced all Nine at once, but Tolkien seems to get around that by making it Noon at the time of meeting. I can imagine that he did not stick around to face all Nine at once, or foolishly faced them openly at night, but by some clever stratagem, tried to lure them away.

BTW, how does this knowledge impact your opinion of Strider's decision to go to Weathertop? To know that the Nine were concealed there, waiting, and if not for Gandalf, they would have walked direct into a trap!

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Aug 25 2015, 6:01pm

Post #20 of 20 (2534 views)
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I’m late, I’m late. [In reply to] Can't Post


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Thanks for the quote. I had thought it strange that he had faced all Nine at once, but Tolkien seems to get around that by making it Noon at the time of meeting. I can imagine that he did not stick around to face all Nine at once, or foolishly faced them openly at night, but by some clever stratagem, tried to lure them away.

I just posted a pertinent question on Main and while poking around looking for info on whether Gandalf fought all Nine I came across your post. Don’t know why I didn’t respond? Oops.

Without looking up the actual quote again, again, again Smile – Gandalf arrived at Weathertop just before dusk on Oct. 3, and the Nazgul were there before him. They fought the dark hours of the 3rd & 4th. So there wasn’t any ‘noon’ meeting. Maybe you’re thinking movie? Not sure because I haven’t watched the films for a long time.

Anyway it seems from Gandalf’s statement (towards the end of The Council of Elrond) that he did fight all Nine at once, and it was at night, and he fled at dawn and the Nine chased him for a short time until 5 broke off back to Weathertop and later 4 gave up the chase and made for the Ford.

Well, just getting my thoughts together as well as answering your post.

Belated cheers
BG

BTW, I don’t think Aragorn knew that all Nine were there, or their actual disposition. But nevertheless, yes, a bad decision to make for Weathertop?

Boromir looked in surprise at Bilbo, but the laughter died on his lips when he saw that all the others regarded the old hobbit with grave respect. Only Glóin smiled, but his smile came from old memories.
-JRR Tolkien

 
 

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