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marary
Lorien
Feb 26 2015, 4:49pm
Post #26 of 41
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It definitely did look awkward
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It definitely didn't suit how Tauriel was depicted the rest of the time. She's not an "ethereal" character like Arwen or Galadriel, which is great for the most part-- I personally liked seeing a gritter, less-wise elf character-- so making her glow, especially when the actress was playing her as rather stressed out and unsure in that moment, made the scene visually awkward. As for Kili having a character moment of falling in love, it got the point across, so I think that's what the scene was really about.
Thorin falling into a gold floor also played really awkwardly as a visual (for me), but was effective for storytelling.
Obviously these scenes could have been done with more artistic mastery and less cheesy heavy-handedness.
(I still love these movies.)
(This post was edited by marary on Feb 26 2015, 4:51pm)
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Milieuterrien
Rohan
Feb 26 2015, 5:09pm
Post #27 of 41
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Tauriel glows gritty, that's indeed the point
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... And that is why that scene makes it for me afterthoughts.
Considering that, the awkwardness is inevitable, so what I like is that the movie-maker (PJ) didn't try to work on the scene to 'embellish' it. It comes as it comes.
Tauriel herself is touched by Kili's reaction, but she doesn't understand immediately ; it does change her very nature, but not immediately.
For instance, she shows herself very surprisingly aggressive against Thranduil soon after, when she felt that there was no love left in him, because love had already become a driving force for her at that point.
She became a warrior.. in love
As we know, true love isn't always sweet, it can be very gritty, it may become a kind of possession allthelike Thorin's greed for instance
Tauriel-in-love (with Kili) went on the verge to forget everybody else, including Thranduil, even including Legolas
So, her kind of 'glowing' went passionate in a very, very different way than Arwen's glow
Both of them ended suffering tremendously about the death of their beloved, but the wisest one accepted her fate while the less-wisest one tried to reject it.
I find very satisfying that PJ and co dared to open those doors in such a movie.
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marary
Lorien
Feb 26 2015, 6:29pm
Post #28 of 41
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You just summed up everything I really appreciated about Tauriel/Kili. This pairing took some time to warm up to, but I actually quite like it now, more than Aragorn/Arwen- an epic romance for sure- but I found Tauriel/Kili leagues more relatable, and indeed, quite gritty and wonderfully imperfect in comparison.
Arwen giving up immortality for Aragorn is a big deal, but there's something a lot more real about Tauriel losing her place in the world after going after the dwarves. And what would Kili have to give up had he lived, given his race and his family?
Tauriel is a bit reckless (like Kili), at times awkward (also like Kili), unsure, and hesitates to give into her feelings while at the same time being driven by them. I actually quite enjoyed that about her because, well, it reminded me of real life.
And Tauriel glows a more yellow color, not white like Arwen. More passion? Less pure? Not sure how much was intended by the filmmakers, but it works for good symbolism to read into! :)
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Milieuterrien
Rohan
Feb 26 2015, 7:22pm
Post #29 of 41
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They did also very well with Eowyn
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...That one falling deep into Aragorn and then finally getting with Faramir.
Better being paid in return isn't it ?
PJ and co don't carry usual love stories, but they use them to carry their story
Tauriel's love for Kili doesn't distract her from the battle, but on the contrary makes her interact with the battle. She didn't succeed herself, but wouldn't Tauriel have followed Kili, Legolas wouldn't have followed her then he wouldn't have killed Bolg nor helped Thorin killing Azog by giving him his sword.
And that cascade effect began just out of a glow in one Tolkien's line.
Isn't it better this way than having Beorn diggin' into orcs ranks to crush their leader dead, while the Line of Durin was falling elsewhere anonymously ?
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The Grey Wanderer
Lorien
Feb 27 2015, 1:16am
Post #30 of 41
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Respectfully disagree in part - and admit error in others...
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All elves are Firstborn. The entry for "Firstborn" in LotR states "See Elves"; though tracking that doesn't clarify that easily. Doing the same in the Silmarillian one quickly finds "Now the Children of Iluvatar are Elves and Men, the Firstborn and the Followers".
The Silmarillian index also gives ""...name Eldar ... given ... all the Elves by Vala Orome...came ... to refer only to the Elves of the Three Kindreds (Vanyar, Noldor, and Teleri) who set on the great westward march from Cuivienen (whether or not they remained in Middle-earth)...
Now where I missed: if I had read a bit further in LotR I would have hit "for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds..." as an explanation to Glorfindel's glowing. So PJ is onto fuzzy ground I have to agree. One might argue that Arwen may be on both sides as she is descended from Galadriel & perhaps the both sidedness can be inherited, Tauriel then becomes more of a stretch.
As for Arwen calling the flood, I would agree she had not the power in Tolkien's books. But I can see why PJ did it - to keep a long movie from being even longer as it made it easy to explain the river rising rather than waiting for a later wordy explanation. PJ had already merged Gorfindel into Arwen, so going a bit further was not hard.
I had not made the connection with the river work to two of the rings, but it does make excellent sense. I do not believe we never learn much about what the rings can do, but it must be something...
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Feb 27 2015, 6:48am
Post #31 of 41
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I always read "on the other side"
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as having nothing to do with the Blessed Realm, but rather the spiritual... Elves living at once in both realms, the physical world, and the spiritual... glowing beings are us seeing their spirit, uncloaked (flesh being the cloak)...
Na 'Aear, na 'Aear! Mýl 'lain nallol, I sûl ribiel a i falf 'loss reviol...
To the sea, to the sea, the white gulls are crying, the wind is blowing and the white foam is flying...
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Morthoron
Gondor
Feb 27 2015, 7:16am
Post #32 of 41
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The quote is clarified by the following words: "for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds...," both worlds being the spiritual and corporeal. Therefore, Frodo sees Glorfindel as a bright light as he fades into wraithdom, the same as when he put on the Ring and beheld the Nazgul not as dark robed specters but as ghostly kings of old.
Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
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Milieuterrien
Rohan
Feb 27 2015, 12:42pm
Post #33 of 41
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Kili sees Tauriel glowing while he is struggling to get out of wraithdom, but also while Tauriel casts a spell to help for that struggle.
Why not consider that this spelling could be a bridge between the two planes ? And that any elf, even lesser ones, when casting such spell, could show some inner 'light nature' that elder elves carry more permanently ?
otherwise, you should be obliged to notice that virtually nothing would make any serious difference between 'lesser' elves and non-elves (for example humans)
in brief : lesser elves can glow sometimes (or anytime), when higher elves glow anytime - when seen from the 'darkworld'
anyway the scene as it has been shot stays right on the spot.
(And don't forget that we are not debating about a real world, but only about a fictional world)
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arithmancer
Grey Havens
Feb 27 2015, 2:29pm
Post #34 of 41
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I think the right answer is film vs. book. We are nowhere in the films told that Arwen can glow because among her ancestors is one who resided in the West before returning to Middle Earth. We could instead assume that in the filmverse she has this trait (along with immortality, ethereal beauty, and physical superiority) because she is an Elf. We also see in Bo5A that Bilbo, when wearing the ring, sees Wood Elf soldiers as glowing slightly.And if Arwen has this abillity (in the films) by virtue of being an Elf, if random Mirkwood Elves appear to glow in the ringworld, it is unremarkable that Tauriel also does (and can be apprehended to by Kili under special circumstances).
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sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea
Feb 27 2015, 4:29pm
Post #35 of 41
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I don't know about the literary legitimacy
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of the two scenes, as i'm nowhere near a Tolkien expert, i just know that for me, one scene works like gangbusters, and the other scene is an ineffectively developed, over-played, flaccid failure.
(This post was edited by sauget.diblosio on Feb 27 2015, 4:34pm)
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Feb 27 2015, 6:00pm
Post #36 of 41
(886 views)
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Na 'Aear, na 'Aear! Mýl 'lain nallol, I sûl ribiel a i falf 'loss reviol...
To the sea, to the sea, the white gulls are crying, the wind is blowing and the white foam is flying...
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Feb 27 2015, 6:01pm
Post #37 of 41
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Na 'Aear, na 'Aear! Mýl 'lain nallol, I sûl ribiel a i falf 'loss reviol...
To the sea, to the sea, the white gulls are crying, the wind is blowing and the white foam is flying...
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Feb 28 2015, 2:44pm
Post #38 of 41
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The Silmarillian index also gives ""...name Eldar ... given ... all the Elves by Vala Orome...came ... to refer only to the Elves of the Three Kindreds (Vanyar, Noldor, and Teleri) who set on the great westward march from Cuivienen (whether or not they remained in Middle-earth)...
Yes but this is a bit different from what JRR Tolkien himself published in The Lord of the Rings, and impacts the case of Tauriel anyway, or the Silvan Elves (even when being characterized as Telerin).
I have put a notable difference between the ideas in colour 
According to The Lord of the Rings most of the Silvan Elves of Mirkwood and Lorien are "East-elves" and not Eldarin, nor are their languages Eldarin (Appendix F). And the Eldar are those Elves who passed Over Sea upon the Great March, plus the Sindar only.
Or simply, the Eldar are the West-elves.
Interestingly, in the even later (than the Silmarillion) constructed Children of Hurin, Christopher Tolkien gives at least one definition of Eldar that basically agees with The Lord of the Rings: the entry for Eldar as later published in The Children of Hurin reads: 'Eldar The Elves of the Great Journey out of the East to Beleriand.'
Thus, basically the West-Elves: the Elves who passed Over Sea plus the Sindar (who made it West enough, to Beleriand).
So here it's not simply those who began the March no matter where they left off in Middle-earth, which admittedly is what Tolkien himself wrote in later "draft" texts, and what Christopher Tolkien chose to publish in the constructed Silmarillion.
I don't know if later Tolkien himself forgot the distinction in Appendix F, or what, but he didn't revise this idea for the second edition in the 1960s, in any event.
Thus according to the sources Jackson has the legal right to draw from, Tauriel cannot be an Elda even if she is considered a Telerin Elf who remained in the Anduin Vale upon the Great March (another late Tolkien idea about these Elves)...
... but she is clearly related to Nerdanel because of her hair colour in any case 
(This post was edited by Elthir on Feb 28 2015, 2:59pm)
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The Grey Wanderer
Lorien
Feb 28 2015, 4:49pm
Post #40 of 41
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Interesting. I hadn't realized he had been so inconsistent on this issue.
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I knew he kept changing the names around of each of the sub-groups of elves, but not where he drew the line between the Eldar and the rest; guess I need to re-read the source material more closely. There-in lies a task for my future retirement years - putting together a history of the history of the elves (that is, how the history changed over time).
So I guess we can chalk up a glowing Tauriel as more of PJ's mix and match from the source material rather than just something inconsistent with the book but consistent with the laws of Tolkien's world as they were at the time he wrote LotR. And just add the whole glowing/healing thing for a female elf as a tie to his LotR movies.
As for being possibly related to Nerdanel - if she is descended from some un-named descendant of one of Nerdanel's sons then she would have Eldar blood in her ... which would un-do all of the arguments against her glowing! Therein I see an interesting opening for some writer of fan-fiction...
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Feb 28 2015, 6:28pm
Post #41 of 41
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Yes it can get a bit confusing, especially when mixing what Tolkien published with what he wrote. Not that you disagreed or asked for any citations, but here are the main descriptions from Appendix F upon which my above post is based:
"The Elves far back in the Elder Days became divided into two main branches: the West-elves (the Eldar) and the East-elves. Of the latter kind were most of the elven-folk of Mirkwood and Lorien; but their languages do not appear in this history, in which all the Elvish names and words are of Eldarin form.*
[footnote] *In Lorien at this period Sindarin was spoken, though with an "accent", since most of its folk were of Silvan origin. Appendix F
"Elves has been used to translate both Quendi, "the speakers", the High-elven name of all their kind, and Eldar, the name of the Three Kindreds that sought for the Undying Realm and came there at the beginning of Days (save the Sindar only)." The Return of the King, Appendix F, On Translation
But below the line, well...
_____________________________
... with respect to other writings published posthumously: certain drafts for the Appendices at least suggest, in my opinion, that the East-elves were Avari (the word is used there), but if so, in any case Tolkien didn't include the term Avari in the final version of course (note West-Elves "the Eldar" above, but not East-elves "the Avari" however).
In Unfinished Tales Tolkien writes that the Silvan Elves (Tawarwaith) were in origin Teleri and so remoter kin of the Sindar (and were said to remember that they were in origin Eldar). In Quendi And Eldar it's said that the term Eldar in origin referred to all Elves (as all Elves were "Star-folk"), but later referred to the Eldor ("The Marchers") and did not properly include the Avari.
Back to Unfinished Tales (and language) one passage states: ’Although the dialects of the Silvan Elves, when they again met their long seperated kindred, had so far diverged from Sindarin as to be hardly intelligible, little study was needed to reveal their kinship as Eldarin tongues.’
Wait... as Eldarin tongues?
But if JRRT really wanted this scenario, I'm not sure why he didn't revise both the descriptions in Appendix F in the 1960s. I mean he revised Finrod to Finarfin in Appendix F for instance, so we can't say he just never got around to revising the end, at least.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Feb 28 2015, 6:40pm)
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