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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
JRR Tolkien's The Hobbit: an upcoming fanedit
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Feb 25 2015, 1:19pm

Post #176 of 203 (969 views)
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     I think there are definitiely assumptions in there. [In reply to]  

Speaking personally I didn't come up with any as I find the term jarring to imply and connect the ideas of something being unexpected and negative. That is a narrative I don't buy into.

By no means does it imply that I think the films are perfect, however, and indeed I have posted about things I did not think worked well for me on numerous occasions.

I think you have a logical leap in your perceptions.


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Feb 25 2015, 1:21pm

Post #177 of 203 (951 views)
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     Story Telling [In reply to]  

Thanks for your list.

I have just been listening to the directors commentary for AUJ and one matter is absolutely clear the screen writers recognise the big challenge of this section of the book is the journey to Rivendell for the following reasons:-

1) It is an identical to the LOTR.

2) it contains no story telling drama. Philippa Boyens tried to write a treatment of a soft entrance to Rivendell with them trying to find the stones and it rendered this whole section flat and dramatically lifeless.

We know what there solution was and your reaction, which i understand, is to return to the book.

My view of how this could have resolved is "A Best of Both Worlds" solution. It takes 87 minutes to reach Rivendell so when they were considering whether to go two to three and remodel the 266 shoot of about 6 1/2 hours of material they could have decided to do the following :-

1) Begin the T.E. at Rivendell and include the political elements the Map, Key and its decoding in an extension of the book meeting with Elrond. The Dwarves are introduced to the audience through Gandalf to Elrond and the Song of The Mountain is sung at nightfall and just before in story telling terms they are about to leave.

2) As regards the accumulated story allude to the Trolls and transfer the gifting of Sting to Rivendell.

3) The character establishment of The Took/ Baggins dichotomy can be played out between Bilbo and Gandalf in a very powerful first scene reflecting the journey to date and is reinforced with in minutes with both Elrond and a little later Bofur.

4) Radagast tells his story in a concise and powerful manner at the White Council

For the E.E. you restore the deep fan requirement of Bag End letting the deep fan see Bilbo's home environment which the greater audience already knows through the LOTR, and tell the story of how the dwarves met Bilbo and Bilbo and Thorin were persuaded to be part of the same company.

Travel across the beautiful NZ country side, leave the encounter with the trolls off screen and have a faithful entrance to Rivendell.

The prologue in both TE and EE is through Thorin at the Prancing Pony.

The huge advantage of this proposal is post Rivendell you can tell the entire story as originally written with all of the drama intact (Azog reveal at the cones to the audience )and develop the sub plot and its revelations without having been telegraphed since Weather Top and you avoid the need for the big pick up session in 2013 which produced the forges, Bard/Alfrid and the Legolas extensions.

So for the years ahead the EE provides a much more faithful beginning to the film and not only do you dispense with Orcs and Wargs West of the last Homely House but you avoid the contrived dramatic reluctance of Thorin not being prepared to visit Rivendell.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.


AshNazg
Gondor


Feb 25 2015, 1:27pm

Post #178 of 203 (964 views)
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     OP already had this thread fan-edited by mods... [In reply to]  

They took out his links and some unsavoury replies. And guess what? OP didn't find it disrespectful.

PJ once fan edited King Kong and inserted a spider pit sequence, which the original director intentionally edited out. Such an act of meritless vanity! If he wanted to make King Kong better he should have tried making his own version.


BlackFox
Half-elven


Feb 25 2015, 1:33pm

Post #179 of 203 (961 views)
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     Boy, is this getting meta! [In reply to]  

LaughLaughLaugh



AshNazg
Gondor


Feb 25 2015, 1:40pm

Post #180 of 203 (940 views)
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     So is The Hobbit [In reply to]  

We're taking the damaged (over bloated) version of PJs movie and restoring it to a state before all the filler and greed. The only difference is that we're restoring a picture that never got distributed.

Kinda like the x-rays of old paintings to see under the restoration layers in an attempt to see the original image underneath.

But yet again, these analogies are terrible. I don't understand why we have to keep speaking in metaphors as if to skirt around the issue we're trying to discuss. Movies and paintings are completely different. A painting has one artist responsible for the entire piecr, a movie has many. Paintings don't have editors, it just doesn't work.


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Feb 25 2015, 1:51pm

Post #181 of 203 (945 views)
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     Switching Topic [In reply to]  

Seeing your reply made me think of another discussion we were both involved in about the relationship between the dialogue in the scene in AUJ where the Wargs appear and Kili shoots one and Gandalf asks of Thorin whom have you told about the journey and how that interfaces with the prologue of DOS.

Philippa confirms the AUJ scene was supposed to be the very first indication that the forces of evil have an interest in Thorin and it will gradually be revealed that the company are being tracked by Azog which with pick ups becomes the vantage point on the great west road Weathertop. The original scene was filmed on location Block 2 so late 2011. For me that does contradict the DOS prologue where Thorin is made aware by Gandalf that evil is tracking him and he has a price on his head based on the black speech parchment found on the Great West Road.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Feb 25 2015, 2:02pm

Post #182 of 203 (930 views)
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     Sorry I'm not quite sure what you are saying contradicts what. [In reply to]  

Apologies if I am being dense but are you saying an earlier draft contradicts the final draft or two scenes in the final draft contradict each other?


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Feb 25 2015, 2:09pm

Post #183 of 203 (927 views)
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     The analogies are fine [In reply to]  

But the process of logical argument is being done a terrible disservice!

For example in this post you:

1. Shift from the discussion of Star Wars (to which TheHutt's post refers) to TH fan edits without note
2. Agree with him that this a "resoration" and thus is not creating art
3. Hold the contrary view, clearly
4. Agree with the analogue in your first line and then say that it does not hold in your last line.


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea


Feb 25 2015, 2:10pm

Post #184 of 203 (974 views)
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     This! [In reply to]  


In Reply To
PJ once fan edited King Kong and inserted a spider pit sequence, which the original director intentionally edited out. Such an act of meritless vanity! If he wanted to make King Kong better he should have tried making his own version.


Excellent point! And i really loved it, especially the behind the scenes on how they figured out how some of the effects were pulled off in the original.

Fan edits are no more harmful or disrespectful to the original film than PJ's adaptation is to Tolkien's original text. And it takes a lot of talent and hard work to pull of a quality edit of anything.


(This post was edited by sauget.diblosio on Feb 25 2015, 2:11pm)


Goldeneye
Lorien


Feb 25 2015, 2:12pm

Post #185 of 203 (921 views)
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     Ha [In reply to]  


In Reply To
due to all the unnecessary parts being cut out. It's the definitive version you know. Cool


As the OP I found that amusing!


Goldeneye
Lorien


Feb 25 2015, 2:26pm

Post #186 of 203 (931 views)
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     re glorfindela: [In reply to]  

Wow, I woke up this morning to see this thread had doubled in size overnight. I'm not going to be able to keep up with the multiple strands in this thread, so I'll respond where I can.

Glorfindela, as someone who has worked in video production for over 10 years, I can tell you that there is no difference in the terms "editing" and "cutting" in my line of work. They mean the same thing. You are using the term "cutting" in relation to fanedits in a condescending manner, as if there is no skill involved in the work. I would love to show you my project files and edit workflow for this fanedit, just to show you the amount of time and energy I'm putting into it. Yes, it pales in comparison to the people who ACTUALLY made the films, but this is not a simple "hack and paste" job like you and many other posters here are implying.


Bishop
Gondor


Feb 25 2015, 3:27pm

Post #187 of 203 (889 views)
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     Nice try [In reply to]  

At making your argument sound objectively true. At least my example of our discourse was real.


Bishop
Gondor


Feb 25 2015, 3:50pm

Post #188 of 203 (876 views)
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     This is too black and white [In reply to]  


Quote
I find the very idea of taking someone else's creative work and chopping bits from it (rather than producing personal creative work) 'incredibly hateful' and offensive to the creators


Here's a different example. I compose and produce music and I have a very modest following. A fan took one of my pieces and basically remixed it, not adding any of his own material but just "chopping bits" and reordered some things. Then he sent it to me and posted it on his sound cloud page. Not only was I not offended, but the remix was very good. And now we're going to work together on some upcoming releases.

Honestly the best way to know if something is offensive or hateful is to ask the artists themselves, because they will no doubt all be different. Unfortunately I don't think anyone here is going to be able to reach Peter Jackson for comment.



Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Feb 25 2015, 3:59pm

Post #189 of 203 (873 views)
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     No worries [In reply to]  

In the Prologue of DOS Gandalf makes Thorin aware he is being tracked.

8 months later when he discovers they are being tracked Gandalf asks the question who did you tell about the quest. Philippa confirms in the commentary of AUJ that the AUJ scene was supposed to be the first time Thorin was aware he was being followed and the company tracked when in fact the scene filmed later but appearing as a flash back in DOS and therefore before the AUJ scene indicates Gandalf knew Thorin was under surveillance.

It isn't so much the dialogue which you could at a pinch rationalise away its Philippa emphatic confirmation that the appearance of the Wargs was supposed to be the first sign that evil forces were interested in Thorin when in fact the scene in the Prancing Pony emphatically makes the same point..

The Warg scene is part of 2011 block 2 the two film structure and the Prancing Pony 2013 pick ups for the three film structure.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.


Glorfindela
Valinor


Feb 25 2015, 4:02pm

Post #190 of 203 (873 views)
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     It's not too black and white as far as I'm concerned [In reply to]  

You are talking about something different. It's absolutely fine if the creator of an original work gives you permission to chop his work about. It is not, however, fine to hack someone's creative work without their consent (unless, of course, you do it purely for yourself and don't publicise your efforts to all and sundry, which is unfortunately all too easy to do these days on the Internet). If you cannot obtain such permission, you don't tamper with a creator's work. It's as simple as that.


In Reply To
Here's a different example. I compose and produce music and I have a very modest following. A fan took one of my pieces and basically remixed it, not adding any of his own material but just "chopping bits" and reordered some things. Then he sent it to me and posted it on his sound cloud page. Not only was I not offended, but the remix was very good. And now we're going to work together on some upcoming releases.

Honestly the best way to know if something is offensive or hateful is to ask the artists themselves, because they will no doubt all be different. Unfortunately I don't think anyone here is going to be able to reach Peter Jackson for comment.



sycorax82
Rohan

Feb 25 2015, 4:04pm

Post #191 of 203 (863 views)
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     Sorry but this shows you shouldn't be doing this... [In reply to]  

I did edits myself (for my own enjoyment) and the decisions you've made for this are pretty questionable...(cutting the Erebor prologue is ludicrous)

Though I guess I'm completely against a Tolkien-only edit anyway. All the movies need are to be brought back into 2 parts, splitting at the barrels/Sauron reveal, with several other edits to cut out the worse parts and tighten up the pacing.

One of my favourite edits I made was making sure we didn't see Old Bilbo's face in the early scenes, so it made it more mysterious (and also saved us from the rubbish wig they gave Ian Holm :D). The only shot of his face would be right at the end of Bo5A, though I haven't got round to that yet until the EE is released.


Bishop
Gondor


Feb 25 2015, 4:10pm

Post #192 of 203 (858 views)
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     No, that was my point [In reply to]  

This person didn't ask for permission first. They just did it. But they never claimed it was their own original creation, in the same way that no one doing a fan edit is claiming it's not a fan edit of Jackson's film.

Again, you won't know if Jackson is offended or finds it hateful unless you ask him personally.


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea


Feb 25 2015, 4:10pm

Post #193 of 203 (856 views)
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     Also... [In reply to]  


Quote
I find the very idea of taking someone else's creative work and chopping bits from it (rather than producing personal creative work) 'incredibly hateful' and offensive to the creators

...this seems a bit of an overreaction considering music of the last 40 years, or visual art over the last 100 years or so. Heck, even Thomas Jefferson meticulously made his own "fan edit" of The Bible over the course of many years. And the brilliant band Negativeland have made a career of "chopping bits" in order to recontextualize and make something new out of someone else's creative work.

The original work will always be there.


(This post was edited by sauget.diblosio on Feb 25 2015, 4:18pm)


Goldeneye
Lorien


Feb 25 2015, 4:22pm

Post #194 of 203 (863 views)
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     sycorax82 [In reply to]  

There are going to be countless Hobbit fanedits when it's all said and done, and each editor has their own opinions on what to keep and what to cut.

Personally I didn't think the Erebor prologue was necessary for several reasons.

1. It wasn't in the book
2. It confused the film's narrative (Old Bilbo is in a flashforward narrating a flashback)
3. It introduces the dwarves and their backstory too soon, before we even meet our titular Hobbit
4. In that same vein, Thorin & Co. explain their backstory all over in Bag End, making the prologue redundant

But of course, you'll have your reasons for keeping it in. Best of luck on editing the rest.


BlackFox
Half-elven


Feb 25 2015, 4:26pm

Post #195 of 203 (854 views)
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     Using someone else's intellectual property without first acquiring a permission... [In reply to]  

... may be deemed morally wrong even if the author is not offended when he or she learns of this.



Bishop
Gondor


Feb 25 2015, 4:41pm

Post #196 of 203 (851 views)
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     It depends on the situation [In reply to]  

Some things are intellectual property and are available for any use. But anyways, I wasn't talking about the legalities. I was merely responding to the idea that any creator of something should find it offensive and hateful if someone does a fan edit of their work.


BlackFox
Half-elven


Feb 25 2015, 4:46pm

Post #197 of 203 (839 views)
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     I may have used a legal term... [In reply to]  

... but I was referring to the moral, not the legal aspect of such behavior.



Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Feb 25 2015, 4:47pm

Post #198 of 203 (858 views)
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     Are you ready to give up yet? [In reply to]  

The level of rudeness and condescension that I am seeing (not to mention willful misrepresentation) boggles my mind.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


BlackFox
Half-elven


Feb 25 2015, 4:54pm

Post #199 of 203 (827 views)
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     Just to clarify... [In reply to]  

I personally am not against fan edits, but I can see where those who are are coming from.



Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Feb 25 2015, 4:57pm

Post #200 of 203 (842 views)
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     Well two thoughts.. [In reply to]  

Firstly, on filmakers comments during production, I would say that they are clearly of their time. I would think we need to take the final version as the final version.

I think on the broader point I wouldn't roll up the two conversations as far as you have. In fact they suggest two different things.

The conversation in DOS is about a bounty being out on Thorin's head and some ruffians on the road.

AUJ paints a different picture - now we are dealing with an orc pack (clearly off their home turf for a purpose) and tracking the company successfully through the wilderness.

If we do roll them up to simply indications of evil interest then I think the, quite genuine, differences between the revelations are lost.

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