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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Feb 24 2015, 10:36pm
Post #1 of 131
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Controversy - is Liam Neeson a hypocrit?
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First of all, I live in Oklahoma, which is about as red-state conservative as you can get. So some of my friends have been complaining about Liam Neeson making some "anti-gun" statements, so I decided to look up what exactly he said. Here's a link:
http://theweek.com/...ks-favor-gun-control
Well one of the problems is "gun control" means different things to different people. To some it means banning handguns, which Neeson implies in his statement (although he doesn't actually say that). To others it means restrictions on clips, ammunition, numbers and types of guns, etc. Now, my friends and I are squarely in the 2nd Amendment gun rights group, meaning I will reject any attempt at banning handguns or semi-automatic weapons. In the USA, this is the most sensitive political issue, probably even more emotional than abortion, so no surprise that Mr. Neeson is now the subject of a boycott and charges of hypocrisy. But I'm kind of in the same boat. I could talk about, and maybe go along with some suggestions of gun control, like registration, size of clips, even banning the sale of certain military-assault weapons, as long as you're not talking about an out-and-out ban of whole categories, like handguns. I just can't say that to my friends, though, that just wouldn't go over real well. Personally I can cut Mr. Neeson some slack, after all he was born in Northern Ireland, so I can understand why he wouldn't be crazy about guns. But he's an actor that makes a living doing movies with guns! Well, again I agree with him that movies are different than real life. 98% of the people seeing any of the "Taken" movies are not going to rush out and buy a gun because they saw the movie, just like 98% of the people who play "Grand Theft Auto" aren't going to go steal cars. But inevitably a few will, and if it happens I blame the individual, not the movie or the game. And if someone commits a crime with a gun I blame the individual, not the gun manufacturer or the NRA.
So, knowing that a smattering of viewers might might go buy and gun and do something stupid, is Liam Neeson a hypocrit? I say maybe a little, but no worse than I am. Well, there's my opinion, wouldn't be surprised if this post gets taken down because it's TOO controversial, but I can certainly have a respectful conversation with those that don't agree with me.
Why yes, I DO look like Anna Friel!
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Feb 24 2015, 10:59pm
Post #2 of 131
(1420 views)
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I'd tend the other way - Neeson also had a nuclear submarine.
[In reply to]
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Personally, I would have far more questions for a system which allowed anyone to have a nuclear sub than for an actor in film about one!
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Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea
Feb 24 2015, 11:35pm
Post #4 of 131
(1411 views)
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...no more than Sigourney Weaver was when she did the Alien films (moreso the sequels than the first one). Movies are movies. Real life is real life.
I played Goldeneye on N64 when I was younger almost 24/7, and I'm the least violent person you'll ever meet, so I don't buy into the whole "media turns people to violence" thing.
"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen
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Elarie
Grey Havens
Feb 25 2015, 12:03am
Post #5 of 131
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Acting is a job that he gets paid for and it doesn't have to reflect his personal opinions. How nice it would be if we all had perfect jobs that reflected our personalities and opinions at all times, but I've never come across a job like that and probably most other people haven't either.
As for his opinions on gun control - many foreigners are completely mystified by America's obsessive love for firearms. It's a cultural thing.
__________________
Gold is the strife of kinsmen,
and fire of the flood-tide,
and the path of the serpent.
(Old Icelandic Fe rune poem)
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cats16
Half-elven
Feb 25 2015, 12:43am
Post #6 of 131
(1390 views)
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Anecdotal evidence doesn't really matter much, especially when discussing the sociocultural effects of media on individuals in a population. It's about aggregated results about lots of people (over 50,000 people have been studied over the decades on this topic) over extended periods of time.
A better way of conceptualizing media violence on a child is that *over time*, one is more likely to express aggressive and violent behavior in the future as a result of *heavy violent media consumption* in one's youth. So, no, not all children are "turned" to violent behavior from violent media consumption when they are young. That's obviously not true. What is being asserted with these arguments--and many studies have shown this--is that children exposed to heavy amounts of violent media are more likely to develop aggressive/violent behavior as adults than children not exposed to violent media.
There are also many studies focused on immediate effects of violent media on children, which indicate similar results, even in the seconds/minutes after consuming it.
Children are especially impressionable, by all kinds of media. Even before the adolescent years of identity-formation, violent media *can* (again, not everyone) affect them heavily. This is compounded by ritualized consumption of violent media over a long period of time.
Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!
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RosieLass
Valinor
Feb 25 2015, 1:06am
Post #7 of 131
(1403 views)
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I strongly disagree with him, but I don't think he's a hypocrite.
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I guess I missed something in the article, but I'm not sure he would be considered a hypocrite. Because he uses prop guns in the movies? I'm not sure how that's even relevant, to be honest.
The problem with this topic, however, is that too many people hear the word "gun" and they just start foaming at the mouth, so that you simply can't have a rational discussion with them. (And I refer to both rabid pro-gun and rabid anti-gun nuts.)
Gun control, in my opinion, treats a symptom, but not the underlying disease. Take away an angry man's gun, and you still have an angry man. He's going to hurt someone, someday, somehow. Simply reducing the number of victims is not going to be much of a consolation to the families of the people he stabs or bludgeons to death.
"BOTH [political] extremes are dangerous. But more dangerous are team fanboys who think all the extremists are on the OTHER side." (CNN reader comment)
It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)
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Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea
Feb 25 2015, 1:12am
Post #8 of 131
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...I can only speak for myself, and as I said, I had no shortage of violent material that I was subjected to throughout my childhood (not just video games, but films as well).
I'm still inclined to think that there are many other factors at play that should be taken into consideration. Not the least being a great portion of this country's almost religious fascination with (and devotion to) firearms. If you grow up in households where such attitudes are common, I'd personally think that you're more likely to turn towards violent behavior that just playing a videogame.
But, again, this is just my opinion and I'm sure there's some study that would prove how I'm wrong. Not to mention plenty of anecdotal evidence to the contrary.
"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen
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Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea
Feb 25 2015, 1:13am
Post #9 of 131
(1414 views)
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It'll be a consolation to the families of potential victims that were saved.
[In reply to]
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Just because the measures won't save everybody, doesn't mean they shouldn't be taken. If one life is saved, it's worth it.
"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen
(This post was edited by Aragorn the Elfstone on Feb 25 2015, 1:15am)
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Brethil
Half-elven
Feb 25 2015, 1:20am
Post #10 of 131
(1392 views)
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in an industry who performers glorify, in the interest of ticket sales, many violent behaviors (and I am not alleging they cause violence: but they do portray it, with gleeful regularity) and who as a result live in many cases a life of wealth beyond most of a normal person's measure. To take the next step and then decry from Ivory Towers what they portray, while making so much more money than professions which are much worthier...nope, it doesn't often sit that well with me, I must admit.
We as a culture foot the bill though, as we buy the tickets. So its rather a self-fulfilling equation I guess.
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cats16
Half-elven
Feb 25 2015, 1:31am
Post #11 of 131
(1371 views)
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A somewhat recent study had a nice remark in the discussion section, more or less stating that while not by any means the sole factor at play (they acknowledge that there are many, many things at play), it should also not be dismissed as insignificant. Indeed, it's a multitude of influences that affect a person within their culture.
I didn't mean to diminish your personal experience, btw (same goes for me, too). I only spoke up given the recent study I read on this very topic, which, as it is, has been heavily researched over the years.
Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Feb 25 2015, 2:42am
Post #12 of 131
(1382 views)
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Acting is a job that he gets paid for and it doesn't have to reflect his personal opinions. How nice it would be if we all had perfect jobs that reflected our personalities and opinions at all times, but I've never come across a job like that and probably most other people haven't either.
As for his opinions on gun control - many foreigners are completely mystified by America's obsessive love for firearms. It's a cultural thing.
I don't know if you live in the USA or not - yeah, it's a cultural thing, but I object to the characterization as "an obsessive love." That's like saying someone has an obsessive love of the First Amendment: "Congress shall pass no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." This is another sensitive political topic in the USA as well. There are people on both sides on this as well: Atheists who decry the "In God We Trust" that is imprinted on our currency, and Christians who object to the teaching of Evolution to their kids. Don't even get me started on abortion, my country IMO has a serious problem with two sides that will fight over ANYTHING because they can't get along, compromise or anything. IMO, fights over gun control are just as predictable as anything else in the USA - and nothing will change as long as the two parties are the only option.
There are American citizens who don't own any guns (granted, I'm not one of them) and would like to see them banned; there are other people who would like "sensible gun restrictions" - and quite a few of them are gun owners. I own two Ruger .22s, one is a handgun and the other is a rifle. I occasionally target shoot, and don't consider them weapons for self-defense. Others go hunting, and yes, others see them as a way to defend themselves. And yes, a few Americans probably do have an "obsessive love" for guns. The attitudes are all over the place on this one, but the main reason the gun rights supporters tend to win is because our message is pretty simple - protect our rights. The gun control crowd is seen as a threat to those rights, whether it's a ban on handguns or a restriction on the size of clips; it doesn't matter, whatever it is it must be stopped. And as long as there is no middle ground, no other option but GOP vs. Dems, nothing will change.
Why yes, I DO look like Anna Friel!
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Meneldor
Valinor
Feb 25 2015, 2:49am
Post #13 of 131
(1374 views)
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I believe gun registration would be a boon to law enforcement, and I don't believe it's good for the average citizen to have a fully automatic assault rifle. But banning handguns would be worse than useless; responsible citizens would be disarmed and criminals wouldn't care that they were breaking the law by carrying guns. Gun bans don't work any better than making drugs illegal.
As for Liam Neeson's opinion, well, it's probably less hypocritical than most Hollywood showbiz types.
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107
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DanielLB
Immortal
Feb 25 2015, 3:23am
Post #14 of 131
(1387 views)
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Gun control, in my opinion, treats a symptom, but not the underlying disease. Take away an angry man's gun, and you still have an angry man. He's going to hurt someone, someday, somehow. Simply reducing the number of victims is not going to be much of a consolation to the families of the people he stabs or bludgeons to death.
How do you tackle child obesity? You create new food standards, or you ...
How do you tackle lung cancer? You restrict public smoking areas, or you ...
How do you tackle binge drinking? You create plain packaging, or you ...
How do you tackle drug-related deaths? You ban the possession of, and the dealing of, drugs , or you ...
How do you tackle car offensives? You put up extra speed cameras, or you ...
How do you tackle rape and sexual offensives? You put up CCTV, or you ...
How do you tackle underage pregnancy? You educate the young, or you ...
How do you tackle abuse? You set up free helplines, or you ...
How do you tackle gun crime? You make firearm ownership illegal, or you ...
How do you tackle climate change? ...
How do you tackle racism? ...
How do you tackle eating disorders? ...
How do you tackle HIV? ...
How do you tackle child pornography? ...
My point is that there is no universal solution for any of these modern socio-economic political problems. None of the solutions above solve the issue completely. Regardless of what a country does, there will still be obesity, underage drinking and sex, speeding offences etc. But the important thing is that any "solution" will help reduce that particular problem.They all cut the head of the snake. They are all a step in the right direction. Why should gun crime be treated any differently?
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Kirly
Lorien
Feb 25 2015, 3:29am
Post #15 of 131
(1425 views)
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Yes, he is a huge hypocrite of the worst kind.
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He makes a living making movies glorifying the use of guns in violent ways, then lectures us on how bad guns are. He can get lost. I too am an American (I live in AZ where open and concealed carry with rightly require no permits) solidly in the Second Amendment camp and will NEVER give up any right to self defense nor coddle some idiot who would. If he wishes to be a defenseless victim waiting for the police to come to save him, so be it. Not me. The police can't arrive to any crime scene until AFTER the crime is underway or even completed. Lunacy.
My avatar photo is Lake Tekapo in New Zealand's South Island. Taken by me in 2004 on a Red Carpet Tours LOTR Movie Location Tour. 'Twas the Vacation of a Lifetime!
pictures taken while on the tour are here:
https://picasaweb.google.com/Kirly7/LOTRNewZealandTour#
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Name
Rohan
Feb 25 2015, 3:34am
Post #16 of 131
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Has insanely restrictive gun laws. It's almost ridiculous (DC v Heller is a famous Supreme Court case). And guess what? DC also has a huge number of violent crimes.
True story. My old government teacher was mugged in DC one day by a guy with a machete. The thug even swung the machete and almost injured my teacher. Fortunately someone accidently walked in on the mugging, and my teacher was able to escape unharmed. This wouldn't have happened if my teacher (an Army veteran) was carrying his handgun. But DC law prohibited that.
My point? Tighter gun laws don't really do much to deter crime. Especially in a country like the United States.
How many Tolkien fans does it take to change a light bulb?
"Change? Oh my god, what do you mean change?! Never, never, never......"
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Kirly
Lorien
Feb 25 2015, 3:34am
Post #17 of 131
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In our normally rebellious, independent cultural nature don't care at all that foreigners are mystified by our treasuring the God-given right to self defense and the tools (firearms) which enable us to exercise that right.
My avatar photo is Lake Tekapo in New Zealand's South Island. Taken by me in 2004 on a Red Carpet Tours LOTR Movie Location Tour. 'Twas the Vacation of a Lifetime!
pictures taken while on the tour are here:
https://picasaweb.google.com/Kirly7/LOTRNewZealandTour#
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Kirly
Lorien
Feb 25 2015, 3:41am
Post #18 of 131
(1356 views)
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Then it is good. i would expect embracing the use of firearms in defensive actions as well. Read Professor Lott and his studies on the numbers of people who are not victims simply by making it known to the agressor that they are armed. A good, true example is the chambering of a round in the midst of a home invasion/burglary resulting in the criminals evacuating the premises before harming anyone. Or the rapist who runs away at the site of the gun pulled out of the purse in defense. These are GOOD things.
My avatar photo is Lake Tekapo in New Zealand's South Island. Taken by me in 2004 on a Red Carpet Tours LOTR Movie Location Tour. 'Twas the Vacation of a Lifetime!
pictures taken while on the tour are here:
https://picasaweb.google.com/Kirly7/LOTRNewZealandTour#
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Kirly
Lorien
Feb 25 2015, 3:43am
Post #19 of 131
(1350 views)
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CCTV does absolutely nothing to stop anything. It helps in the prosecution, but that's after the crime is committed.
My avatar photo is Lake Tekapo in New Zealand's South Island. Taken by me in 2004 on a Red Carpet Tours LOTR Movie Location Tour. 'Twas the Vacation of a Lifetime!
pictures taken while on the tour are here:
https://picasaweb.google.com/Kirly7/LOTRNewZealandTour#
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Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea
Feb 25 2015, 3:45am
Post #20 of 131
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I am not against people owning hand guns.
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...just to be clear. But nobody needs an AK-47 to defend themselves.
"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen
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Kirly
Lorien
Feb 25 2015, 3:46am
Post #21 of 131
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It depends on what weapon the attacker has.
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You don't bring a knife to a gun fight.
My avatar photo is Lake Tekapo in New Zealand's South Island. Taken by me in 2004 on a Red Carpet Tours LOTR Movie Location Tour. 'Twas the Vacation of a Lifetime!
pictures taken while on the tour are here:
https://picasaweb.google.com/Kirly7/LOTRNewZealandTour#
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Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea
Feb 25 2015, 3:48am
Post #22 of 131
(1352 views)
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You're bringing a gun.
"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen
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Kirly
Lorien
Feb 25 2015, 3:51am
Post #23 of 131
(1349 views)
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A handgun against an AK (which you mentioned) might be as useless as a knife in a gun fight.///
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My avatar photo is Lake Tekapo in New Zealand's South Island. Taken by me in 2004 on a Red Carpet Tours LOTR Movie Location Tour. 'Twas the Vacation of a Lifetime!
pictures taken while on the tour are here:
https://picasaweb.google.com/Kirly7/LOTRNewZealandTour#
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Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea
Feb 25 2015, 3:57am
Post #24 of 131
(1355 views)
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...and as such, I'll kindly duck out of this conversation before it gets too heated.
"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Feb 25 2015, 4:42am
Post #25 of 131
(1354 views)
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"How do you tackle gun crime? You make firearm ownership illegal, or you ..."
REALLY??? Is that the ONLY solution you can envision - to penalize MILLIONS of law-abiding citizens who haven't done anything wrong??? (Myself included) Sorry, I have a problem with that. Cars kill thousands of people each year, too, should we ban car ownership?
Sorry, I probably shouldn't have started this topic, which is clearly an emotional one for many. The ORIGINAL question is whether or not Liam Neeson is a hypocrit for taking an anti-gun stance when he stars in gun-heavy movies. It's a given that we are not going to agree on gun ownership or gun control anymore than we will agree on the quality of Peter Jackson's Hobbit trilogy, so maybe it would be best if we left that issue alone.
Why yes, I DO look like Anna Friel!
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