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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
JRR Tolkien's The Hobbit: an upcoming fanedit
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Kirly
Lorien


Feb 24 2015, 5:30pm

Post #101 of 203 (1094 views)
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     Yep. Not "edits"; they're cuts. [In reply to]  

Nothing anyone can do but cut things out or move them around. Not an edit at all.

My avatar photo is Lake Tekapo in New Zealand's South Island. Taken by me in 2004 on a Red Carpet Tours LOTR Movie Location Tour. 'Twas the Vacation of a Lifetime!

pictures taken while on the tour are here:
https://picasaweb.google.com/Kirly7/LOTRNewZealandTour#


Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea


Feb 24 2015, 5:31pm

Post #102 of 203 (1105 views)
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     It's disheartening... [In reply to]  

...to see your wonderful post misinterpreted so badly. People see what they want to see, I suppose.

The simple fact is that one doesn't have to love, or even like, PJ's films to show him respect as a filmmaker.

Also, if one so badly wants to experience J.R.R. Tolkien's The Hobbit, I would think the best way to do that would be to crack open the pages of his wonderful book.

"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen


Goldeneye
Lorien


Feb 24 2015, 5:32pm

Post #103 of 203 (1069 views)
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     barrow-wight [In reply to]  

Best of luck on your own fanedit, Barrow wight. PM me if you'd like to go over things in greater detail.


Darkstone
Immortal


Feb 24 2015, 5:32pm

Post #104 of 203 (1101 views)
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     Exactly [In reply to]  

When Peter Jackson wanted to make a film of Lord of the Rings he had to get the permission of the rights holders.

Yes, and the Tolkien Estate also gets a cut.

So when people rip off Jackson and the big studios, they're also ripping off Tolkien.

As Tolkien himself said of piracy:

"This paperback edition and no other has been published with my consent and cooperation. Those who approve of courtesy (at least) to living authors will purchase it and no other."
-Blurb on the Ballantine edition

******************************************
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a wonderful town!!!
Mount Doom blew up,
And the Black Tower's down!!
The orcs all fell in a hole in the ground!
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a heckuva town!!!

-Lord of the Rings: The Musical, music by Leonard Bernstein, lyrics by Betty Comden and Adolph Green


Elessar
Valinor


Feb 24 2015, 5:35pm

Post #105 of 203 (1051 views)
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     Maybe in the rarest of occasions [In reply to]  

 



Elessar
Valinor


Feb 24 2015, 5:38pm

Post #106 of 203 (1070 views)
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     That it is [In reply to]  

Unsure



(This post was edited by Elessar on Feb 24 2015, 5:40pm)


Goldeneye
Lorien


Feb 24 2015, 5:44pm

Post #107 of 203 (1114 views)
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     SO! BACK ON TOPIC! [In reply to]  

Ok I can see this hornet's nest has been good and riled up. There seems to be some heated opinions on both sides of the fanedit argument. That being said, I'd like to actually list some of my edits to the project.

AN UNEXPECTED JOURNEY EDITS

  • No Dale/Erebor prologue. This was cut because the dwarves’ backstory is told in a much better fashion when they are in Bag End.
  • Bilbo’s opening lines remain, but Frodo is removed
  • Some dwarf silliness is gone from the Bag End sequence (just a few shots)
  • No Necromancer/Dol Guldur subplot. It distracts from the main quest and was poorly conceived and executed anyways. As it was in the book, it is only briefly hinted at now.
  • No Radagast whatsoever
  • Azanulbizar flashback is gone
  • Azog. This is one of the biggest issues with the fanedit. Azog is a lousy CGI villain that looked immediately dated upon the film’s release. However, Jackson made him the primary antagonist across the three films and his role is unfortunately essential. Even so, I have cut his role down considerably in AUJ.
  • Troll scene has been trimmed, with some silliness removed (boogers and stuff)
  • The Daylight orc chase is gone. I spliced the company checking out the troll cave with their entrance to Rivendell.
  • No White Council/Galadriel/Saruman
  • The Stone Giants, while they were in the book, were overdone and ridiculous in Jackson’s film. They have been cut.
  • All scenes with Gollum are untouched!
  • Goblintown escape has been cut drastically, removing almost all of the physics-defying stunts and cartoonish CGI bits.
  • The tree fight/eagle rescue sequence is gone. This is another book scene I had to cut due to Jackson’s mishandling. It was obviously beefed up late in production in order to have a more “action-packed” climax for AUJ.
  • The film ends with Bilbo meeting back up with the dwarves outside Goblintown, and he still gives his nice little speech. Orcs suddenly show up and the party begins to run…however the beginning of the chase segues immediately into the beginning of DOS, where they are being chased into Beorn’s house.
  • Other miscellaneous trims here and there

  • I'll post DOS edits shortly.


    Kirly
    Lorien


    Feb 24 2015, 5:48pm

    Post #108 of 203 (1037 views)
    Shortcut
         Insults prove ego/vanity basis. /// [In reply to]  

     

    My avatar photo is Lake Tekapo in New Zealand's South Island. Taken by me in 2004 on a Red Carpet Tours LOTR Movie Location Tour. 'Twas the Vacation of a Lifetime!

    pictures taken while on the tour are here:
    https://picasaweb.google.com/Kirly7/LOTRNewZealandTour#


    Spriggan
    Tol Eressea

    Feb 24 2015, 5:49pm

    Post #109 of 203 (1041 views)
    Shortcut
         Noooo! [In reply to]  

    The two things are nothing like the same. Just think for a moment of all the thousands of processes, creations and decisions which go into creating a film which aren't involved in your editing. Are you choosing a cast, scouting locations, designing costumes, writing a script, building sets, directing actors, selecting takes, producing CGI etc etc?

    I'm really struggling to see your point of view on this.


    Goldeneye
    Lorien


    Feb 24 2015, 5:49pm

    Post #110 of 203 (1047 views)
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         DOS Edits [In reply to]  

    Here are my edits for DESOLATION OF SMAUG:

  • No prologue at the Prancing Pony
  • Once again, no Dol Guldur/Necromancer subplot
  • Once again, no Radagast
  • Legolas and Tauriel. Another unfortunate addition by Jackson that cannot be removed entirely. They make a brief appearance in Mirkwood when they arrest the dwarves, and are briefly in the orc skirmish during the barrel chase. Every other scene with them in DOS is gone.
  • The barrel chase has been heavily cut. No more Bombur rolling all over orcs or Legolas tap dancing on the dwarves heads
  • Laketown scenes have been cut or trimmed, especially regarding Alfrid (can’t wait to cut his scenes in the third film!)
  • Bilbo’s initial encounter with Smaug is pretty much untouched. This was one of the high points of the Hobbit films.
  • Smaug playing hide and seek with the dwarves is gone, along with the dwarves lighting the furnaces and throwing flash grenades at Smaug’s head. Dumb.
  • The gold dwarf statue is still there. This is because there needs to be a reason why Smaug is covered in gold when he breaks out of Erebor. So I’ve basically trimmed the molten gold stuff down to what is absolutely needed to explain everything. No more Thorin surfing a gilded river though!
  • Other cuts here and there

  • This list is shorter than AUJ, but believe it or not a 170-minute film has now become an 80-minute film!


    AshNazg
    Gondor


    Feb 24 2015, 5:55pm

    Post #111 of 203 (1056 views)
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         The Goblin sequence is much more tense without the silliness! [In reply to]  

    It feels more like a scene from Lord of the Rings, where you actually get a sense of the characters being in danger. I'm actually quite impressed how that turned out, good work!

    I'm not sure about cutting out the wargs, eagles and Carrock. Although I guess it would be hard not to show Azog in this scene. Unsure


    Goldeneye
    Lorien


    Feb 24 2015, 6:01pm

    Post #112 of 203 (1036 views)
    Shortcut
         re: [In reply to]  

    It was a very tough decision to cut out the eagle rescue scene, especially since it was in the book. However this was one of the instances where keeping it in would've caused more narrative issues than solved.


    Voronwë_the_Faithful
    Valinor

    Feb 24 2015, 6:14pm

    Post #113 of 203 (1044 views)
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         I appreciate your respect for the legalities of copyright [In reply to]  

    While I personally am not a fan of fan edits (I have a skipbutton when I want to skip something, and I actually use it far more with the LOTR films than the Hobbit films), the only thing I truly object to is people using illegally obtained copies to create their edits (as a number of people who have posted here about there edits have done).

    The other thing is insisting that anyone that you distribute it to has their own copies of the source materials (as the most reputable fan edit sites always do). Otherwise you really are disrespecting all the artists who contributed to the making of the films, as well as the studios that bankrolled them (and without which you would have nothing to work with).

    'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

    The Hall of Fire


    Bombadil
    Half-elven


    Feb 24 2015, 6:20pm

    Post #114 of 203 (1007 views)
    Shortcut
         Excellent Points, my friend.../// [In reply to]  

     

    www.charlie-art.biz
    "What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"


    skyofcoffeebeans
    Rivendell

    Feb 24 2015, 6:20pm

    Post #115 of 203 (1006 views)
    Shortcut
         From one fan editor to another [In reply to]  

    Kudos on the 5.1 audio. My own idea was to create a hypothetical one film theatrical cut as Jackson might have released, using his Fellowship editing notes (Frodo-centric, or Bilbo-centric, rather) with a 3:10 (ROTK) run time limit, with an extended edition that would flesh out the cut further come November.

    Your eagle rescue cut creates more problems than it solves. If you are keeping Azog as something resembling a primary antagonist, he needs an entrance-- and the only effective entrance is his dialogue with Thorin in the trees. Furthermore, unless you plan on cutting out all thematic sense of eucatastrophe and the Eagles are cut entirely, a hypothetical audience will going to have a lot of problems accepting their arrival at Ravenhill.

    A number of other points:
    There is a way to remove the chase sequence in Erebor entirely. You can cut from Bilbo leaving Smaug's chamber to Smaug's dicovery of the "barrel rider" riddle to the dragon flying away, all without any need for the gold statue. A hint -- eye the sequence where he breaks down a metal gate with his claws during the mining chase sequence.
    Why is the Orc river chase included at all? It serves no purpose if Azog is not present. Unless you want to introduce two banal cgi baddies and increase Orlando and Lily's screen time... otherwise the sequence serves nothing, least of all Bilbo, your protagonist.


    Barrow-Wight
    Rohan


    Feb 24 2015, 6:26pm

    Post #116 of 203 (1017 views)
    Shortcut
         I'm just talking [In reply to]  

    I'm just talking about the writing of the script not the process of filmmaking itself


    Brethil
    Half-elven


    Feb 24 2015, 6:28pm

    Post #117 of 203 (1005 views)
    Shortcut
         Viking-size agreement. // [In reply to]  


    In Reply To
    When Peter Jackson wanted to make a film of Lord of the Rings he had to get the permission of the rights holders.

    Yes, and the Tolkien Estate also gets a cut.

    So when people rip off Jackson and the big studios, they're also ripping off Tolkien.

    As Tolkien himself said of piracy:

    "This paperback edition and no other has been published with my consent and cooperation. Those who approve of courtesy (at least) to living authors will purchase it and no other."
    -Blurb on the Ballantine edition









    Aragorn the Elfstone
    Tol Eressea


    Feb 24 2015, 6:29pm

    Post #118 of 203 (993 views)
    Shortcut
         No... [In reply to]  

    They are writing their own film script based on a novel. A more apt comparison to these fan edits would be for them to take a physical copy of the book and cut pages out and then pass it around as a superior version of the novel.

    "The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
    - Viggo Mortensen


    Goldeneye
    Lorien


    Feb 24 2015, 6:34pm

    Post #119 of 203 (988 views)
    Shortcut
         skyofcoffeebeans [In reply to]  

    In my fanedit, the first mention of Azog comes when the Great Goblin tells Thorin "I know someone who would pay a pretty price for your head...etc." He mentions him by name and what he looks like, and the first time Azog is actually seen is when he and his warg party begin to chase Bilbo & Co. right outside the Misty Mountains. From there, the film cuts to DOS and they are being chased by Azog and his wargs towards Beorn's house. After that, I show Azog a couple of times throughout DOS so the audience still knows that a confrontation is coming. Of course I haven't touched BOTFA yet so that has yet to be resolved.

    Smaug leaving Erebor is still tricky. That money shot of him bursting through the gate and flying towards Laketown is difficult to remove because of its importance. Of course he is covered with gold, so in order to explain that I have to show at least some bit of the gold statue.

    The barrel chase with the orcs is cut down; I've only kept the skirmish at the elven gate. To remove that too would hurt the cinematic pacing that Jackson established...the audience is watching and is expecting an "action beat." Legolas and Tauriel have been cut down here, and Bolg is another character that must unfortunately remain in some way because of his fight with Kili in BOFTA. Chain reactions and domino effects everywhere!


    Spriggan
    Tol Eressea

    Feb 24 2015, 6:36pm

    Post #120 of 203 (989 views)
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         Well that's not what came across but even so [In reply to]  

    Writing a script isn't a matter of selecting and ordering lines from a book. Even in this much reduced comparison I don't see the similarity.

    The obvious similarity is between editing a film and editing a book, surely?


    Voronwë_the_Faithful
    Valinor

    Feb 24 2015, 6:43pm

    Post #121 of 203 (1013 views)
    Shortcut
         That's not really right [In reply to]  

    As I said in my earlier post, I'm okay with following those guidelines, because I think it is the best that can be done, and fan edits are going to exist in any case, and this limits the damage that they do (but by no means eliminates it). But fair use law is much more complicated than fanedit.com makes it seem). If it really came to a challenge it is just as likely that they would be held illegal as that they would be held legal. So please don't make these certain statements that "they are legal."

    And for the record, I am an attorney.

    'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

    The Hall of Fire


    Gianna
    Rohan


    Feb 24 2015, 7:09pm

    Post #122 of 203 (959 views)
    Shortcut
         Your fanedit sounds like it'll be great! [In reply to]  

    From the changes you listed here and above, you've pretty much fixed everything I didn't like about the first two films! (Not to mention you left the Gollum scenes intact. Gollum is the high point of the films for me. Wink) I'm looking forward to reading what you plan to do with BOFA.

    Just wondering, though -- does Kili still get shot? And if so, how is he healed?

    ~There's some good left in this world. And it's worth fighting for.~


    Goldeneye
    Lorien


    Feb 24 2015, 7:24pm

    Post #123 of 203 (963 views)
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         re: gianna [In reply to]  

    Thanks, Kili does still get shot in the version I'm working on. He and the other three dwarves remain behind in Laketown, although I'm not showing any Legolas or Tauriel there. So no Morgul arrow needing kingsfoil for healing...it will just be implied that some rest and first aid from his fellow dwarves heals him enough to return to Erebor by the third film.


    (This post was edited by Goldeneye on Feb 24 2015, 7:33pm)


    Bishop
    Gondor


    Feb 24 2015, 8:13pm

    Post #124 of 203 (938 views)
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         Here's an interesting scenario [In reply to]  

    that I'm curious about how you or others feel about. George Lucas, an outspoken proponent of film preservation, has never made his original films available for purchase. Decade after decade he has tampered with the original films, adding CGI, changing audio, etc. But anyone in interested in seeing the film as they were presented in the theater are out of luck. So a group of people came together to create the "De-specialized" versions of the films, taking any possible sources they could find such as laser disc, recordings from television, whatever they could find and "rebuilt" the theatrical release.

    What do you think about this?


    (This post was edited by Bishop on Feb 24 2015, 8:20pm)


    Spriggan
    Tol Eressea

    Feb 24 2015, 8:23pm

    Post #125 of 203 (959 views)
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         I don't have any strong feelings on the matter personally. [In reply to]  

    I haven't followed the matter closely but I had the impression the tinkerings were rather pointless on his part. Equally, I would imagine that any historical interest in recreating the original "de tweaked" version would be rather hampered by the collage of sources you mention.

    I'm afraid I'm no expert on that topic, however.


    (This post was edited by Spriggan on Feb 24 2015, 8:29pm)

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