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Kirly
Lorien
Feb 24 2015, 5:30pm
Post #101 of 203
(1285 views)
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Nothing anyone can do but cut things out or move them around. Not an edit at all.
My avatar photo is Lake Tekapo in New Zealand's South Island. Taken by me in 2004 on a Red Carpet Tours LOTR Movie Location Tour. 'Twas the Vacation of a Lifetime!
pictures taken while on the tour are here:
https://picasaweb.google.com/Kirly7/LOTRNewZealandTour#
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Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea
Feb 24 2015, 5:31pm
Post #102 of 203
(1296 views)
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...to see your wonderful post misinterpreted so badly. People see what they want to see, I suppose.
The simple fact is that one doesn't have to love, or even like, PJ's films to show him respect as a filmmaker.
Also, if one so badly wants to experience J.R.R. Tolkien's The Hobbit, I would think the best way to do that would be to crack open the pages of his wonderful book.
"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen
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Goldeneye
Lorien
Feb 24 2015, 5:32pm
Post #103 of 203
(1260 views)
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Best of luck on your own fanedit, Barrow wight. PM me if you'd like to go over things in greater detail.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Feb 24 2015, 5:32pm
Post #104 of 203
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When Peter Jackson wanted to make a film of Lord of the Rings he had to get the permission of the rights holders.
Yes, and the Tolkien Estate also gets a cut.
So when people rip off Jackson and the big studios, they're also ripping off Tolkien.
As Tolkien himself said of piracy:
"This paperback edition and no other has been published with my consent and cooperation. Those who approve of courtesy (at least) to living authors will purchase it and no other."
-Blurb on the Ballantine edition
******************************************
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a wonderful town!!!
Mount Doom blew up,
And the Black Tower's down!!
The orcs all fell in a hole in the ground!
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a heckuva town!!!
-Lord of the Rings: The Musical, music by Leonard Bernstein, lyrics by Betty Comden and Adolph Green
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Elessar
Valinor
Feb 24 2015, 5:38pm
Post #106 of 203
(1261 views)
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(This post was edited by Elessar on Feb 24 2015, 5:40pm)
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Goldeneye
Lorien
Feb 24 2015, 5:44pm
Post #107 of 203
(1305 views)
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Ok I can see this hornet's nest has been good and riled up. There seems to be some heated opinions on both sides of the fanedit argument. That being said, I'd like to actually list some of my edits to the project.
AN UNEXPECTED JOURNEY EDITS
No Dale/Erebor prologue. This was cut because the dwarves’ backstory is told in a much better fashion when they are in Bag End.
Bilbo’s opening lines remain, but Frodo is removed
Some dwarf silliness is gone from the Bag End sequence (just a few shots)
No Necromancer/Dol Guldur subplot. It distracts from the main quest and was poorly conceived and executed anyways. As it was in the book, it is only briefly hinted at now.
No Radagast whatsoever
Azanulbizar flashback is gone
Azog. This is one of the biggest issues with the fanedit. Azog is a lousy CGI villain that looked immediately dated upon the film’s release. However, Jackson made him the primary antagonist across the three films and his role is unfortunately essential. Even so, I have cut his role down considerably in AUJ.
Troll scene has been trimmed, with some silliness removed (boogers and stuff)
The Daylight orc chase is gone. I spliced the company checking out the troll cave with their entrance to Rivendell.
No White Council/Galadriel/Saruman
The Stone Giants, while they were in the book, were overdone and ridiculous in Jackson’s film. They have been cut.
All scenes with Gollum are untouched!
Goblintown escape has been cut drastically, removing almost all of the physics-defying stunts and cartoonish CGI bits.
The tree fight/eagle rescue sequence is gone. This is another book scene I had to cut due to Jackson’s mishandling. It was obviously beefed up late in production in order to have a more “action-packed” climax for AUJ.
The film ends with Bilbo meeting back up with the dwarves outside Goblintown, and he still gives his nice little speech. Orcs suddenly show up and the party begins to run…however the beginning of the chase segues immediately into the beginning of DOS, where they are being chased into Beorn’s house.
Other miscellaneous trims here and there
I'll post DOS edits shortly.
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Kirly
Lorien
Feb 24 2015, 5:48pm
Post #108 of 203
(1228 views)
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My avatar photo is Lake Tekapo in New Zealand's South Island. Taken by me in 2004 on a Red Carpet Tours LOTR Movie Location Tour. 'Twas the Vacation of a Lifetime!
pictures taken while on the tour are here:
https://picasaweb.google.com/Kirly7/LOTRNewZealandTour#
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Feb 24 2015, 5:49pm
Post #109 of 203
(1232 views)
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The two things are nothing like the same. Just think for a moment of all the thousands of processes, creations and decisions which go into creating a film which aren't involved in your editing. Are you choosing a cast, scouting locations, designing costumes, writing a script, building sets, directing actors, selecting takes, producing CGI etc etc?
I'm really struggling to see your point of view on this.
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Goldeneye
Lorien
Feb 24 2015, 5:49pm
Post #110 of 203
(1238 views)
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Here are my edits for DESOLATION OF SMAUG:
No prologue at the Prancing Pony
Once again, no Dol Guldur/Necromancer subplot
Once again, no Radagast
Legolas and Tauriel. Another unfortunate addition by Jackson that cannot be removed entirely. They make a brief appearance in Mirkwood when they arrest the dwarves, and are briefly in the orc skirmish during the barrel chase. Every other scene with them in DOS is gone.
The barrel chase has been heavily cut. No more Bombur rolling all over orcs or Legolas tap dancing on the dwarves heads
Laketown scenes have been cut or trimmed, especially regarding Alfrid (can’t wait to cut his scenes in the third film!)
Bilbo’s initial encounter with Smaug is pretty much untouched. This was one of the high points of the Hobbit films.
Smaug playing hide and seek with the dwarves is gone, along with the dwarves lighting the furnaces and throwing flash grenades at Smaug’s head. Dumb.
The gold dwarf statue is still there. This is because there needs to be a reason why Smaug is covered in gold when he breaks out of Erebor. So I’ve basically trimmed the molten gold stuff down to what is absolutely needed to explain everything. No more Thorin surfing a gilded river though!
Other cuts here and there
This list is shorter than AUJ, but believe it or not a 170-minute film has now become an 80-minute film!
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AshNazg
Gondor
Feb 24 2015, 5:55pm
Post #111 of 203
(1247 views)
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The Goblin sequence is much more tense without the silliness!
[In reply to]
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It feels more like a scene from Lord of the Rings, where you actually get a sense of the characters being in danger. I'm actually quite impressed how that turned out, good work!
I'm not sure about cutting out the wargs, eagles and Carrock. Although I guess it would be hard not to show Azog in this scene.
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Goldeneye
Lorien
Feb 24 2015, 6:01pm
Post #112 of 203
(1227 views)
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It was a very tough decision to cut out the eagle rescue scene, especially since it was in the book. However this was one of the instances where keeping it in would've caused more narrative issues than solved.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Feb 24 2015, 6:14pm
Post #113 of 203
(1235 views)
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I appreciate your respect for the legalities of copyright
[In reply to]
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While I personally am not a fan of fan edits (I have a skipbutton when I want to skip something, and I actually use it far more with the LOTR films than the Hobbit films), the only thing I truly object to is people using illegally obtained copies to create their edits (as a number of people who have posted here about there edits have done).
The other thing is insisting that anyone that you distribute it to has their own copies of the source materials (as the most reputable fan edit sites always do). Otherwise you really are disrespecting all the artists who contributed to the making of the films, as well as the studios that bankrolled them (and without which you would have nothing to work with).
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Feb 24 2015, 6:20pm
Post #114 of 203
(1198 views)
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www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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skyofcoffeebeans
Rohan
Feb 24 2015, 6:20pm
Post #115 of 203
(1197 views)
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Kudos on the 5.1 audio. My own idea was to create a hypothetical one film theatrical cut as Jackson might have released, using his Fellowship editing notes (Frodo-centric, or Bilbo-centric, rather) with a 3:10 (ROTK) run time limit, with an extended edition that would flesh out the cut further come November.
Your eagle rescue cut creates more problems than it solves. If you are keeping Azog as something resembling a primary antagonist, he needs an entrance-- and the only effective entrance is his dialogue with Thorin in the trees. Furthermore, unless you plan on cutting out all thematic sense of eucatastrophe and the Eagles are cut entirely, a hypothetical audience will going to have a lot of problems accepting their arrival at Ravenhill.
A number of other points:
There is a way to remove the chase sequence in Erebor entirely. You can cut from Bilbo leaving Smaug's chamber to Smaug's dicovery of the "barrel rider" riddle to the dragon flying away, all without any need for the gold statue. A hint -- eye the sequence where he breaks down a metal gate with his claws during the mining chase sequence.
Why is the Orc river chase included at all? It serves no purpose if Azog is not present. Unless you want to introduce two banal cgi baddies and increase Orlando and Lily's screen time... otherwise the sequence serves nothing, least of all Bilbo, your protagonist.
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Barrow-Wight
Rohan
Feb 24 2015, 6:26pm
Post #116 of 203
(1208 views)
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I'm just talking about the writing of the script not the process of filmmaking itself
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Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea
Feb 24 2015, 6:29pm
Post #118 of 203
(1184 views)
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They are writing their own film script based on a novel. A more apt comparison to these fan edits would be for them to take a physical copy of the book and cut pages out and then pass it around as a superior version of the novel.
"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen
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Goldeneye
Lorien
Feb 24 2015, 6:34pm
Post #119 of 203
(1179 views)
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In my fanedit, the first mention of Azog comes when the Great Goblin tells Thorin "I know someone who would pay a pretty price for your head...etc." He mentions him by name and what he looks like, and the first time Azog is actually seen is when he and his warg party begin to chase Bilbo & Co. right outside the Misty Mountains. From there, the film cuts to DOS and they are being chased by Azog and his wargs towards Beorn's house. After that, I show Azog a couple of times throughout DOS so the audience still knows that a confrontation is coming. Of course I haven't touched BOTFA yet so that has yet to be resolved.
Smaug leaving Erebor is still tricky. That money shot of him bursting through the gate and flying towards Laketown is difficult to remove because of its importance. Of course he is covered with gold, so in order to explain that I have to show at least some bit of the gold statue.
The barrel chase with the orcs is cut down; I've only kept the skirmish at the elven gate. To remove that too would hurt the cinematic pacing that Jackson established...the audience is watching and is expecting an "action beat." Legolas and Tauriel have been cut down here, and Bolg is another character that must unfortunately remain in some way because of his fight with Kili in BOFTA. Chain reactions and domino effects everywhere!
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Feb 24 2015, 6:36pm
Post #120 of 203
(1180 views)
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Well that's not what came across but even so
[In reply to]
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Writing a script isn't a matter of selecting and ordering lines from a book. Even in this much reduced comparison I don't see the similarity.
The obvious similarity is between editing a film and editing a book, surely?
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Feb 24 2015, 6:43pm
Post #121 of 203
(1204 views)
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As I said in my earlier post, I'm okay with following those guidelines, because I think it is the best that can be done, and fan edits are going to exist in any case, and this limits the damage that they do (but by no means eliminates it). But fair use law is much more complicated than fanedit.com makes it seem). If it really came to a challenge it is just as likely that they would be held illegal as that they would be held legal. So please don't make these certain statements that "they are legal."
And for the record, I am an attorney.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Gianna
Rohan
Feb 24 2015, 7:09pm
Post #122 of 203
(1150 views)
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From the changes you listed here and above, you've pretty much fixed everything I didn't like about the first two films! (Not to mention you left the Gollum scenes intact. Gollum is the high point of the films for me.  ) I'm looking forward to reading what you plan to do with BOFA.
Just wondering, though -- does Kili still get shot? And if so, how is he healed?
~There's some good left in this world. And it's worth fighting for.~
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Goldeneye
Lorien
Feb 24 2015, 7:24pm
Post #123 of 203
(1154 views)
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Thanks, Kili does still get shot in the version I'm working on. He and the other three dwarves remain behind in Laketown, although I'm not showing any Legolas or Tauriel there. So no Morgul arrow needing kingsfoil for healing...it will just be implied that some rest and first aid from his fellow dwarves heals him enough to return to Erebor by the third film.
(This post was edited by Goldeneye on Feb 24 2015, 7:33pm)
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Bishop
Gondor
Feb 24 2015, 8:13pm
Post #124 of 203
(1129 views)
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that I'm curious about how you or others feel about. George Lucas, an outspoken proponent of film preservation, has never made his original films available for purchase. Decade after decade he has tampered with the original films, adding CGI, changing audio, etc. But anyone in interested in seeing the film as they were presented in the theater are out of luck. So a group of people came together to create the "De-specialized" versions of the films, taking any possible sources they could find such as laser disc, recordings from television, whatever they could find and "rebuilt" the theatrical release.
What do you think about this?
(This post was edited by Bishop on Feb 24 2015, 8:20pm)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Feb 24 2015, 8:23pm
Post #125 of 203
(1150 views)
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I don't have any strong feelings on the matter personally.
[In reply to]
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I haven't followed the matter closely but I had the impression the tinkerings were rather pointless on his part. Equally, I would imagine that any historical interest in recreating the original "de tweaked" version would be rather hampered by the collage of sources you mention.
I'm afraid I'm no expert on that topic, however.
(This post was edited by Spriggan on Feb 24 2015, 8:29pm)
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Viking-size agreement. //
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