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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
The USE of Orcrist, Glamdring & Sting?
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Bombadil
Half-elven


Feb 24 2015, 12:22pm

Post #1 of 31 (2263 views)
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The USE of Orcrist, Glamdring & Sting? Can't Post

A SWORD Appreciation Thread!

One could call Tolkien's books
a.."A Sword & Sorcery" Invention of the BEST KIND!

But we kinda haven't
talked about Them
much

Crazy

www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"


QuackingTroll
Valinor


Feb 24 2015, 12:28pm

Post #2 of 31 (1959 views)
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Am I the only fan of Rankin/Bass' Sting? [In reply to] Can't Post

http://images.wikia.com/.../1/1f/StingRepel.png

Not that I prefer it, but I think it's a cool design.


BlackFox
Half-elven


Feb 24 2015, 1:16pm

Post #3 of 31 (1932 views)
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I'll add my voice to yours [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien is to blame for me, a convinced pacifist, currently taking a course in medieval weaponry and warfare. Laugh



Bombadil
Half-elven


Feb 24 2015, 3:39pm

Post #4 of 31 (1885 views)
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Why would only STING Glow Blue..? [In reply to] Can't Post

WAS there something EXTRA Special about it?
WAS a SPELL put upon it?

The other two didn't.

Is there something in Tolkien's writings Explaining that?
There are many here who more Steeped in Elvish lore
since bom struggles with the Simarillion to this day,

& would like to know what you have read.

Is there some obscure reference
hidden the deep passages of Tolkien's WORLD?

In the Movies they have a Body-Count of Astronomical numbers
From Goblintown to Ravenhill that is hard to Total

Does anyone know who? owned these 3 Swords
in the First AGE.

There are other websites our readers follow & Likely this topic has come up
There before....which would make for great reference.

Crazy

www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"


Starglass
Rivendell


Feb 24 2015, 3:57pm

Post #5 of 31 (1891 views)
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Beautiful swords! [In reply to] Can't Post

For some reason or another swords have always been my "favorite" medieval weapon. (Actually, I blame my favorite video game series, The Legend of Zelda, for getting me into swords). Wink

Anyway, these three swords all have such a beautiful design and each has its own unique look. I remember the first time I saw AUJ I didn't particularly like the design or Orcrist- it didn't look like a typical sword to me. However, it had grown on me to the point of becoming my favorite design out of the three; I now own a letter-opener replica of it. There's something so graceful and elegant about Orcrist, especially in Thorin's hands even though it's big for him...

One thing I really hope for if Thorin's funeral makes it into the EE is getting to see Orcrist buried with him. There's something sad about it just sitting there alone stuck in Azog. Unimpressed


(This post was edited by Starglass on Feb 24 2015, 3:58pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Feb 24 2015, 4:06pm

Post #6 of 31 (1877 views)
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All should have glowed [In reply to] Can't Post

All three blades (Sting was techically a dagger, not a sword) should have glowed in the presence of Orcs if we go by Tolkien's canon. This was overlooked (or was not budgeted for) in some of the films' special effects sequences.

There has been speculation over which famous Elves of Gondolin might have wielded Orcrist and Glamdring. I'm sure that some of our fellow TORnites have details.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Bombadil
Half-elven


Feb 24 2015, 4:07pm

Post #7 of 31 (1887 views)
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There is a particular moment in [In reply to] Can't Post

DoS, when Legolas confronts Bolg
in Laketown....

He spins it around Full Circle
before taking out two Henchmen
that is jus' EXTRAordinary...

Loved that SHOT!
Crazy

www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"


Bombadil
Half-elven


Feb 24 2015, 4:16pm

Post #8 of 31 (1887 views)
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Well? PJ did give a good Answer [In reply to] Can't Post

"IF All glowed blue, then they would have looked
Like they were fighting with 'Light Sabres' "

G. Lucas has stated that is the where he got the idea
From?
From Tolkien
Crazy

www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"


swordwhale
Tol Eressea


Feb 24 2015, 4:33pm

Post #9 of 31 (1857 views)
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actually not radically different... [In reply to] Can't Post

from WETA's.

Every good Hero needs a good sword.

or set of knives.

Na 'Aear, na 'Aear! Mýl 'lain nallol, I sûl ribiel a i falf 'loss reviol...
To the sea, to the sea, the white gulls are crying, the wind is blowing and the white foam is flying...





swordwhale
Tol Eressea


Feb 24 2015, 4:37pm

Post #10 of 31 (1863 views)
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heee heeee heeeeeeeeee [In reply to] Can't Post

I seem to remember illustrating a fanfic which melded LOTR and Star Wars.

They have the same archetypal faerie tale bits.

Even glowing swords.

I think the "magic sword" thing is an archetype of faerie tale and myth, and having the magic visible is more fun than having just a normal sword.

Na 'Aear, na 'Aear! Mýl 'lain nallol, I sûl ribiel a i falf 'loss reviol...
To the sea, to the sea, the white gulls are crying, the wind is blowing and the white foam is flying...





Mooseboy018
Grey Havens


Feb 24 2015, 6:23pm

Post #11 of 31 (1821 views)
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I like it too. [In reply to] Can't Post

I can't say the same thing for the Ralph Bakshi one though...


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Feb 24 2015, 6:43pm

Post #12 of 31 (1842 views)
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Orchrist!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

I REALLY Heart Orchrist, the Weta guys did a fabulous job on that! Maybe because it's curved, kind of like that badass knife Aragorn had in LoTR, what I wouldn't give for one of those! (I mean a REAL knife, not a prop, hard to find and really expensive - I've looked!) It's more distinctive than Glamdring or Aragorn's sword. It's also got those very beautiful inlays, like so:



Sting, well, I guess it's okay, but it's more of a letter opener, really, LOL! Yeah, I have a "Sting" letter-opener, couldn't resist!Cool

Actually had a discussion with a more knowledgeable friend once about Fili's swords, and why they would be wider on the tip. He said they were more like axes, and that you could chop with them as well as slash:



I always thought they looked strange, but there were apparently some swords in that medieval period designed like this. Those Weta guys sure do their homework!

Why yes, I DO look like Anna Friel!


BlackFox
Half-elven


Feb 24 2015, 7:13pm

Post #13 of 31 (1806 views)
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A little bit of fun [In reply to] Can't Post

http://img0.joyreactor.com/...d-hobbit-508477.jpeg



Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 24 2015, 7:56pm

Post #14 of 31 (1801 views)
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What a great screencap of Fili there. [In reply to] Can't Post

 BTW, Orcrist is very front-heavy. Very cleaver-y. I can see why Richard used it as he did, the sword choreography for Orcrist needs to be different than for a sword like Anduril, for example, which is more weight balanced and much faster. So I think they showed it well.








(This post was edited by Brethil on Feb 24 2015, 8:04pm)


Bombadil
Half-elven


Feb 24 2015, 8:02pm

Post #15 of 31 (1794 views)
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Bom thinks John Howe was the Sneeky littl' Guy [In reply to] Can't Post

who came UP with Much of what
we SEE on Screen. He was their
"Go-To-Guy" when It came to
Medieval Weapon design...

Bom doesn't own the
WETA Weapons Book,
YET?

Does someone here
have it?
Crazy

www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"


Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Feb 24 2015, 8:58pm

Post #16 of 31 (1779 views)
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No mystery over Glamdring... [In reply to] Can't Post

Doesn't it actually say in The Hobbit that it belonged to the King of Gondolin - Elrond's great-grandfather, Turgon?
The most prevalent theory regarding Orcrist's ownership is that it might be the sword of Ecthelion of the Fountain...

There's an excellent article by our Daniel_LB on Dark Jackal's website: http://thorinoakenshield.net/...al-owner-of-orcrist/




"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort


(This post was edited by Eleniel on Feb 24 2015, 9:07pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Feb 24 2015, 9:09pm

Post #17 of 31 (1765 views)
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Indeed. [In reply to] Can't Post

I wasn't prepared at the time to look up the exact quote, but here it is:


Quote

"This, Thorin, the runes name Orcrist, the Goblin-cleaver in the ancient tongue of Gondolin; it was a famous blade. This, Gandalf, was Glamdring, Foe-hammer that the king of Gondolin once wore. Keep them well!"


"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Feb 24 2015, 11:23pm

Post #18 of 31 (1732 views)
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What for? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
“This, Gandalf, was Glamdring, Foe-hammer that the king of Gondolin once wore. Keep them well!"


“WAS” Glamdring.

Me wonders…

What be its name NOW? Crazy

Strange tense. Intense tense…

Elrond speaks truly: “These are Elven-blades!
Not for the hoi polloi.
Thanks for dropping by.”

*Erestor purloins from behind* Angelic




Bombadil
Half-elven


Feb 24 2015, 11:34pm

Post #19 of 31 (1730 views)
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Bom does remember Elrond's Spech in TH, but [In reply to] Can't Post

IT is STILL really nice to know MORE of the Story...

Thanks to DLB..
Crazy

www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"


Starglass
Rivendell


Feb 24 2015, 11:49pm

Post #20 of 31 (1727 views)
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Yes! [In reply to] Can't Post

I know exactly which moment you're talking about! Legolas does do a beautiful job of showing off the sword as well, especially then. If I were ever to need to use a sword, I would want to learn how to do that exact move! Cool

Another thing I love about Orcrist is the "ringing" sound it makes when someone takes it out of the sheath. It especially stood out to me when Thorin draws it during the "company being chased by wargs" scene.


Bombadil
Half-elven


Feb 25 2015, 1:44am

Post #21 of 31 (1718 views)
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SPARKS Flew ONCE fighting AZOG..TOO!../// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"


tunagirll
Registered User

Feb 25 2015, 7:46am

Post #22 of 31 (1709 views)
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It's extremely heavy [In reply to] Can't Post

It's interesting to see how incredibly heavy the Weta masterwork Orcrist is - weighing in at a whopping 2.92kg. This makes it around twice the weight of working swords of similar length. Orcrist wouldn't need to be front-heavy provided it was counterbalanced, but I couldn't see them making it any heavier than what it is now. The heaviest longword is still only around 1.8kg.

No wonder they had to work the choreography to make it look good. It would have handled like a real lump in fighting.


Elthir
Grey Havens

Feb 25 2015, 1:42pm

Post #23 of 31 (1669 views)
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a well done article... in a sense... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The most prevalent theory regarding Orcrist's ownership is that it might be the sword of Ecthelion of the Fountain... There's an excellent article by our Daniel_LB on Dark Jackal's website...



It's a well written and researched article, and not that you said otherwise, but its foundation is very much based on details and characters from the very early long prose Fall of Gondolin, The Book of Lost Tales version, a section of the tale that JRRT never updated.

And the argument (not that you are making it) that Tolkien never wrote anything to contradict certain details is a bit too convenient here in my opinion, as he simply never wrote this tale in full again, much beyond (essentially) Tuor finally getting through the Gates of Gondolin and seeing the city.

So in another sense I find the approach itself, and thus its admittedly tentative conclusions, a bit suspect.

That's the boring version of my response. For the extra boring version...

____________________

There was no Third Age within the context of the early Fall of Gondolin for example, no Bilbo nor Hobbits, Elves were arguably 'rather short' by comparison to later ideas, Balrogs were numerous and rather more killable, and in the early version there were only Gnomes [Noldoli] in Gondolin, no 'Sindar' of the later tales of course [which Tolkien would later alter, putting many Sindar in Gondolin at one point, if seemingly forgetting this, or altering it again, in the very late Glorfindel texts], and so on...

... and no Orcrist existed when the tale was written.

... so based on the approach, the essay then eliminates various leaders of these Houses based on an early set of descriptions, descriptions that we have no real idea Tolkien was going to necessarily keep decades later. And decades later, when Tolkien began to re-write the long prose Fall of Gondolin in the early 1950s, the reader actually meets Ecthelion before the story is abandoned: 'All in silver was he clad, and upon his shining helm there was set a spike of steel pointed with a diamond; and as his esquire took his shield it shimmered as if it were bedewed with drops of rain, that were indeed a thousand studs of crystal.'

No mention of a sword named Orcrist, at least here; which sword now existed in Tolkien's imagination anyway. Was it going to be given to Ecthelion in the 1950s and noted later in the tale? Who knows? We find out some later details due to associated notes, like for example...

A) Turgon was going to be the tallest person in the world save Thingol -- yet according to even later text, Argon was seemingly taller than Turgon however. And according to the early Fall of Gondolin someone named 'Penlod' was 'tallest of Gnomes'.

B) Turgon would appear with 'a white and gold sword in a ruel-bone [ivory] sheath'

This wasn't noted in the early version. Anyway I'll pick a passage where the two stories can be compared:

Early FOG: Tuor and Voronwe find the outer gate, and entering it find a way, dark, rough going and circuituous, full of fearsome echoes, and they ran at times, fearing Melko's goblins, till they perceived it was the deceit of the place. And making for a gleam of light they came to another gate, through which they passed into the sunlight, but instantly a great gong rang out and they were surrounded by 'warriors in steel', and then they meet the Chief of the Guard of the Gondothlim, who tells them the names of Gondolin and allows them to pass on to the city, and Tuor and Voronwe now pass over the plain to the city.


1950s FOG [or 'Later Tuor']: Tuor and Voronwe find the outer 'gate', entering it there was no light, but all was at first silent, until Voronwe spoke, which awoke echoes that were enlarged and multiplied, and when the echoes died a voice was heard in the Elven-tongue commanding them not to stir. Elemmakil [Captain of the Guard] speaks to them, looks at them in the light of his lamp, and Noldor 'mail-clad and armed' stepped out of the darkness, and they were led to the wooden gate -- the first of various gates of course.

So the two versions, separated by decades of real time [in Tolkien's life] are alike in ways, but not wholly alike in detail, and in some ways are notably different. Christopher Tolkien comments about the array of the Gondothlim, for instance, from which description the essay above linked to in this thread takes its details: 'Doubtless, if my father had continued the later Tuor, much would have re-emerged, however changed, if we judge by the rich 'heraldic' descriptions of the great gates and their guards in the Orfalch Echor.' Christopher Tolkien, commentary, The Array of the Gondothlim, The Fall of Gondolin, The Book of Lost Tales II


Is it possible that Ecthelion wore the sword? Or course, but in my opinion we can't even be certain that Ecthelion will slay his 'new and updated' Balrog in the exact same fashion -- yet we know Tolkien has retained the 'spike' upon his helm, which is something that might point [no pun intended] to the same basic idea.

Well okay... pun intended. I admit it Wink

Again, not that the writers of this article do not and did not realize that they are only dealing in theories. They clearly do realize this, but as written I find their essay a bit too certainly presented.


(This post was edited by Elthir on Feb 25 2015, 1:56pm)


DanielLB
Immortal


Feb 25 2015, 1:56pm

Post #24 of 31 (1655 views)
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Yes. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Again, not that the writers of this article do not and did not realize that they are only dealing in theories. They clearly do realize this, but as written I find their essay a bit too certainly presented.


You've said this in the past, and one day I will go back to the essay an insert somewhere in the text that it is purely speculative, and based on very early writings found in HoMe. It's not supposed to provide a definitive answer - only Tolkien knows who originally owned Orcrist.

(One of the reasons we wrote it was so that people didn't have to flick through passages and passages to find more details.)

Smile


(This post was edited by DanielLB on Feb 25 2015, 2:02pm)


Elthir
Grey Havens

Feb 25 2015, 2:40pm

Post #25 of 31 (1633 views)
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No problem... [In reply to] Can't Post

... although I shouldn't have written "in a sense" in the title, because it's still well written and well researched. In the rest of my post I hope I explained what I really meant...

... better than in the title Smile

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