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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Feb 23 2015, 4:44am
Post #1 of 18
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**LotR: Fellowship of the Ring, 11.1 FEAR! FIRE! FOES! AWAKE!
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Aloha from Hawaii! Welcome to Book 1 Chapter 11, “A Knife in the Dark”. The relatively leisurely Hobbit ramble is over now, and from now on the quest is becoming deadly serious.
It is now October 30; Frodo left Bag End a week ago. The Hobbits have come a long way from the Shire and Buckland, both geographically and metaphorically: lost in the Old Forest, almost consumed by a willow tree, carried off by dreadful ghosts, and rescued twice by a most improbably savior, the Hobbits couldn’t resist letting down their hair a little in the Prancing Pony, with almost catastrophic results.
But Buckland is still part of the story: this same night, while Frodo and his friends spend the night guarded by a most improbable new acquaintance, the Black Riders are still in the hunt.
1. Why was Fatty Bolger selected to guard the “home front”?
2. What would have been the consequence if the house in Buckland had been left unguarded?
In her 2002 discussion of this chapter, our esteemed Altaira collected this analysis of the movements of the Black Riders in this time frame. It’s useful to have it in mind as we negotiate our way through this chapter.
The Black Riders must surely have known that “Baggins” had moved on. One of my favorite TORnsibs from long ago, Reverend, offered this observation in that 2002 discussion.
3. Comments?
4. If the “Horn-call of Buckland had not been sounded for a hundred years,” how did the Bucklanders know what to do?
5. Why did Tolkien include this vignette? What is he telling us?
Next: Meanwhile, in Bree…
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Feb 23 2015, 4:46am)
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Feb 23 2015, 2:54pm
Post #2 of 18
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Thank you Elizabeth for leading this chapter
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Allow me to be the first to comment; but I have only 10 minutes sooo. . .
1. Why was Fatty Bolger selected to guard the “home front”?
Fatty never had any intention of going on the quest, or any further than Crickhollow. He stayed behind as a pretence that “Baggins” was still there, to throw off any inquisitiveness.
2. What would have been the consequence if the house in Buckland had been left unguarded?
Then, the Horn-call of Buckland would not have been sounded. The Three Riders would (perhaps) have followed the four Hobbits into the Old Forest, instead, their presence uncloaked, they were “forced” back up the road to the Bridge.
4. If the “Horn-call of Buckland had not been sounded for a hundred years,” how did the Bucklanders know what to do?
Stories of it must have been passed on by word of mouth. I think the last time it was used was the Fell Winter, a hundred years past.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Feb 23 2015, 10:02pm
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Thanks for leading us off, Elizabeth!
why did Fatty...
Mr. Bolger wants to help, but we aren't all brave (or stupid) enough to go on quests. A bit like the men who can't follow Aragorn to Mirror, but can take on another task, "Fatty" has been found a useful role. The explanation we're given seems quite credible to me: Frodo would like to leave Gandalf a message, but dares not leave it in writing.
if the house had been left empty?
As it turns out, that IS how Gandalf finds it....
the riders must have known Baggins had moved on..
Must they? I think I need someone to explain that to me. But in any case, it would make sense for the Riders to check, just in case Frodo has stayed, and sent out a party of decoys.... There is plenty of"fog of war" for both sides to grapple with.
horn calls and rehearsals...
I like to think that there must be regular civil defence drills and rehearsals, so that everyone knows what to do when the horn call is heard, even if it isn't used in anger for a long time. I remember thinking this sounds very serious for hobbits, even Bucklanders. But then I began to think of the White Horse in Oxfordshire, a shape marked out by cutting the turf to expose chalky soil: maintained every few years since the bronze age. It was kept going so long because it became a custom tied up with a regular fair. Mix the important business with some fun, and people keep it up.
I also wonder a bit about how that horn call works. Maybe Everyone hearing it is to go to battle stations, some of them repeating the horn call? Or maybe it's like the restless (and later whistles) used by Victorian police: an officer pursuing a felon would take our whistle. All other officers hearing that would rather it whistle too, whilst moving quickly in the direction from which the original alarm came.It's supposed to have been very effective in drawing a lot of people towards the terrible from all directions .
Why include this?
I think it vindicates Frodo's decision to set off at once. It also helps Tolkien maintain a difficult balance: the Riders have to do enough to be threatening, without actually getting the upper hand, because a lot of the suspense of the chapters to come arise from the nightmarish sense of poorly-understood pursuit.
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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Brethil
Half-elven
Feb 23 2015, 10:25pm
Post #4 of 18
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Aloha from Hawaii! Thanks for leading us off! And I'm not jealous of your Hawaii weather AT all. Nope. Not. at. all.  1. Why was Fatty Bolger selected to guard the “home front”? I think it highlights the naivete of our Hobbits here. Merry I am sure holds Fatty in some esteem (future bro-in-law) and he does a heroic thing, really, as a fresh-faced Hobbit: just being there alone with some sort of menace does him credit (and sets up the Fatty who will come out skinny from resisting the louts who take over the Shire). So it is stage 1 of a small side-journey for Fatty, here among the first steps of the other Hobbits. Can we see Fatty as the stay-home hero, the one who holds down the farm and keeps the milk flowing? Not a bad thing. But the naivete is still there, as the Hobbits (and us) still have a poorly understood sense of how dangerous the Nine are. It shows that Glorfindel was wise: how could they go forward with the full knowledge of what they faced? The whole truth would be overwhelming. They received the knowledge of their peril in stages. But I can completely understand Gandalf calling it all absurd. It rather is, setting these against those, in the naïve state that they start out in.
2. What would have been the consequence if the house in Buckland had been left unguarded? In her 2002 discussion of this chapter, our esteemed Altaira collected this analysis of the movements of the Black Riders in this time frame. It’s useful to have it in mind as we negotiate our way through this chapter.
The Black Riders must surely have known that “Baggins” had moved on. One of my favorite TORnsibs from long ago, Reverend, offered this observation in that 2002 discussion. Great links, thanks! I like the idea that while splitting the Nine by distracting them at Crickhollow it reduces the danger at Bree. And it underlines the old-world lack of instant or even timely communication available. Recon was a torturous slog. No cell service means lots of riding, lots of fails.
4. If the “Horn-call of Buckland had not been sounded for a hundred years,” how did the Bucklanders know what to do? I'm sure there is a fussily detailed instruction manual, written in red ink. 
5. Why did Tolkien include this vignette? What is he telling us? I think its a furtherance of the peril device, but by keeping the Nine cloudy they seem very frightening (which seen clearly, they are too.) Plus the image of them breaking down the door at Crickhollow (which Hobbits I am sure would feel safe within) its like a first touch of the Enemy touching the rather faerie-world we've seen so far. And I think Fatty's story is important. I know in early drafts he had a role to travel into the Forest; but I like him being left behind, and then us catching up with him later on when he has made strides too, in bravery and wisdom, and had some suffering (though it reads lightly). A real sign that life went on during the journey that we witness, and not the way it should have been.
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Feb 24 2015, 3:36pm
Post #6 of 18
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Yes, but would the Riders know
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how long since the four Hobbits left Crickhollow. If we look at a map we can see that a straight path from Buckland through the Old Forest straight to Bree would save the Riders the many extra miles it took to go back up the road to the Bridge and the East Road. (Assuming Bombadil would put up with such nonsense!) Just a semi-silly thought.
I suspect if the Horn Call was not sounded the result would be the same. The three Riders would head back to the East Road after desecrating Crickhollow. The effect of the Horn Call was to quickly make up their minds to take the known path rather than a mysterious (probably unknown forest) that seemed blocked by a great Hedge.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Feb 24 2015, 4:48pm
Post #7 of 18
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What does the horn call sound like?
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At some point, in my early readings of the book, I decided that it went like this (an mp3 file of me playing it on a cheap synth! https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/...ckland%20%20horn.mp3 )
So Fear, Fire , Foes are all F's (as notes as well as words!) and "Awake" is an F on the first beat of the word, then up a 5th to a C for the second.)
I have no idea whether that is a real horn call, something I heard somewhere, or just something I made up!
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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Darkstone
Immortal
Feb 24 2015, 5:45pm
Post #8 of 18
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Meanwhile, back at the ranch....
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Aloha from Hawaii!
Howdy from Texas! I do hope you are in good health!!
1. Why was Fatty Bolger selected to guard the “home front”?
Fond as he was of Frodo, Fatty Bolger had no desire to leave the Shire, nor to see what lay outside it. His family came from the Eastfarthing, from Budgeford in Bridgefields in fact, but he had never been over the Brandywine Bridge. His task, according to the original plans of the conspirators, was to stay behind and deal with inquisitive folk, and to keep up as long as possible the pretence that Mr. Baggins was still living at Crickhollow. He had even brought along some old clothes of Frodo's to help him in playing the part. They little thought how dangerous that part might prove.
-A Conspiracy Unmasked
2. What would have been the consequence if the house in Buckland had been left unguarded?
Probably the Sacksville-Bagginses would have shown up with wagons and ransacked it.
And Shire–hobbits would have talked about Frodo’s disappearance, and an east-bound traveler would have picked up the gossip, and mentioned it when he/she passed through Bree, and so Frodo’s cover would have been blown, and the Black Riders would have been able to track him down to The Prancing Pony, and so it all really was pretty much a waste of time and resources wasn't it?
3. Comments?
Personally 'Open, in the name of Mordor!' has always struck me as hilarious.
4. If the “Horn-call of Buckland had not been sounded for a hundred years,” how did the Bucklanders know what to do?
”The problem with this army is, we got too many calls. We got a call for artillery, infantry, get up and eat, retreat. Anyway, old Butterfield, he wrote a special call for this here brigade. Say there’s an order for this brigade, you and me. Some damn fool can be blowing his bugle, we’re going to think that order's for us when it wasn't. We go ahead and follow that order anyway, the next thing you know we’re going to take a look around and we’re going to be in a world of hurt!”
“Yeah, that happened to me once. Us, that is. Half the regiment charged, the other half retreated. You had your choice.”
“You see this here brigade got a special call. You hear that call, you know the next one is for you. It goes like this: Ta, Ta, Ta, Ta-ta-ta-ta, Ta-ta-ta-ta, ta-ta-ta-taaah.”
-Gettysburg (1993)
5. Why did Tolkien include this vignette?
To lull us into a sense of security.
What is he telling us?
“Oh, look! At this very moment the Black Riders are actually waaaay back in Crickhollow and nowhere near Bree! Whew! Nothing to worry about from Black Riders tonight, eh?”
******************************************
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a wonderful town!!!
Mount Doom blew up,
And the Black Tower's down!!
The orcs all fell in a hole in the ground!
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a heckuva town!!!
-Lord of the Rings: The Musical, music by Leonard Bernstein, lyrics by Betty Comden and Adolph Green
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sador
Half-elven
Feb 25 2015, 12:59pm
Post #10 of 18
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sador
Half-elven
Feb 25 2015, 1:01pm
Post #11 of 18
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Combining this with nowizardme's recollection of policemen and whistles
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Personally 'Open, in the name of Mordor!' has always struck me as hilarious. Quite like 'Halt, in the name of Plod!'
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sador
Half-elven
Feb 25 2015, 2:25pm
Post #12 of 18
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1. Why was Fatty Bolger selected to guard the “home front”?
Compared to Tooks and Brandybucks, Bolger are nonentities; so he was given the lousy job. (Folco was a Boffin, so he got worse)
2. What would have been the consequence if the house in Buckland had been left unguarded?
I don't think the Riders could sense the Ring and track it to the Hedge. If they could, they wouldn't be hanging around Crickhollow at all by now (unless we follow Reverend's idea - thank you for posting it!).
What would have happened - probably not much; the Riders might have explored a bit, realised the party had five hobbits and be puzzled by the three tubs standing there. They might have washed... or at least used them as troughs and watered their horses (if the animals could fit in the house). They might have decided to stay in the house for cover for that day, possibly keeping watch in case Frodo came back - and have intercepted Gandalf.
Also, as Brethil noted, Fatty Bolger might not have found the courage buried deep inside him, and might not have led the uprising against the ruffians.
3. Comments?
Poor horse indeed.
4. If the “Horn-call of Buckland had not been sounded for a hundred years,” how did the Bucklanders know what to do?
They didn't.
They knew the notes, and could blow back - that's once enough hobbits realised this was serious business, and not some schoolboy's prank.
And then they probably tried to get a message through to the Master of the Hall.
But after that? Nothing. Gandalf found Buckland crawling like an anthill, but this doesn;t mean anybody had a clear idea of what they were doing.
5. Why did Tolkien include this vignette? What is he telling us?
It's a nice story, it shows once again the resilience of hobbits, and it pays off the opaque sentence in A Conspiracy Unmasked that Fatty role was also dangerous.
It is also a nice connection the the attack on Bree, and makes most readers think the inn was also raided by Black Riders (NEB used to argue quite forcefully that it wasn't them - but I disagree).
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Feb 26 2015, 2:18am
Post #15 of 18
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In 2008, I posted this theory: "It hasn't been sounded from need in a hundred years, but they practice the first Saturday night of every month by sounding the horn at midnight and then timing how long it takes the neighbors to come to the party."
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Feb 26 2015, 3:11pm
Post #16 of 18
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Aloha from Hawaii! Welcome to Book 1 Chapter 11, “A Knife in the Dark”. The relatively leisurely Hobbit ramble is over now, and from now on the quest is becoming deadly serious.
I couldn't agree more! We've been having hints and vague references to the mortal peril of the Ring, and the danger is growing page-by-page. I still think that at this point the tale could be resolved in a, 'happily ever after'-type ending, ,but it is becoming more and more apparent that this story is not a Hobbit part 2.
I've had many friends read LotR and, at different places between Bombadil and Bree, be caught on the 'hook' that kept them interested through the end of the tale. Of course, there were those who gave up before Rivendell, but I did see that most of them caught on to the enchanting, epic nature of the book at some point before Weathertop. Those who gave up most often gave 'boredom', 'silliness', or 'child-ish story-telling', as their reason.
Just my experience...
1. Why was Fatty Bolger selected to guard the “home front”?
I'll post at the risk of sounding like an echo. I think that this plot point could serve many purposes.
1. It could be that there needed to be someone there to keep down on the rumours that would be spread if Frodo just up an left. Thus it was an attempt to 'save' the Shire from any upset or trouble. One that was nobly intentioned, but ineffective.
2. It also could have had the double effect of keeping the Riders separated and confused. Frodo and co. are still naive hobbits as they set out to Rivendell, without any kind of practical defence. No Elven entourage, Wizard guide, Singing body-guard, or weapons to speak of. They need the time to grow, realise their peril, and make preparations. I think this point is very archetypical.
In many stories, the hero is a young or weak person from humble origins, and they are blissfully unaware of their destiny to overthrown the Big Bad Villain. In many cases, they are brought to the Villain's attention before they are ready to confront him, and so must have a 'lucky' escape until they are strong enough for the overthrow. In even more cases, the final battle is a culmination of several smaller battles, in which the hero learns skills to employ against the Villain. The questions I always ask are these: 'Why doesn't the Big Bad just go out and challenge the hero? Why send minions in ever increasing strength to test the hero, allowing him to increase in power; instead of squashing him like a bug at the outset?'
This plot point might very well serve as a plausible reason to give the hobbit's reprieve from direct attack, and though, in this case, the smaller perils they face are not directly under Sauron's command, they do have enough inherent terror to be on par for the hobbits to handle.
3. As others have stated, this scene plays out nicely in the 'Scouring', and serves to develop one of the minor characters in the tale-- something I've come to expect of Tolkien and his style of deep back-story. It also developes another kind of heroism into the tale. Amidst all the Ring-bearers, Crown-wearers, Sword-swingers, Power-seekers, Plan-makers, and Earth-shakers, in the end, the story is about two hobbits--small, everyday sort of folk-- doing BIG things that other people couldn't or wouldn't do. Here is the largely unsung hero-- the hero at home. He didn't get a chance to go on the quest or do great things, but he did what he could, and lived up to his full potential, and who am I to judge him for his inablity? He did his best and that should be enough.
2. What would have been the consequence if the house in Buckland had been left unguarded?
I really like the idea that Gandalf could have been captured again, but given how his clash on Weathertop went, I think it would have been a 'thriller' portion of the tale and not developed plot in any sensible way. He would be in no danger IMO, sans the appearance of the Witch-King (But he had to be on Weathertop to stab Frodo, and if here, he would be too far away).
More probably, I do agree with the theory that this helps keep direct attack power from being brought to bear on the unshielded hobbits. Maybe the 'luck' I mentioned earlier would, in this context be better described as 'Fate'? As Gnadalf might say: they were 'meant' to get to Rivendell, and have all the adventures along the way, but all the happy 'accidents' that happened along the way were also 'meant' to happen, but surely 'not by Sauron'.
3. Comments?
I too think it funny that the Nazgul announce themselves as servants of Mordor, but upon further consideration I think it equally interesting that this is one of the few times that they speak, PJ's films had largely ingrained the fact that they were screeching menaces incapable of speech. Exception could be made for the W-K as Gandalf's arch-nemesis, but this makes me reconsider my thoughts on Nazgul speech. I also begin to wonder why there is not more dialogue from them, or even 'Bad guys' in general. Morgoth and Sauron get quite a bit in drafts of the Sil and earlier tales, but not so much as that in the Third Age Tales (Exclusive of Unfinished Tales).
Hmm... Things to ponder...
4. If the “Horn-call of Buckland had not been sounded for a hundred years,” how did the Bucklanders know what to do?
Well, I imagine it might be a thing talked about by Gammers and Gaffers like tales of the Second World War are today. Given Hobbit's longer span of years, what do you think?
5. Why did Tolkien include this vignette? What is he telling us?
I think I've answered this in my other questions.
I love this picture! It's perfect! Where did you find, if I might ask?
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Feb 26 2015, 3:13pm
Post #17 of 18
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What is he telling us?
“Oh, look! At this very moment the Black Riders are actually waaaay back in Crickhollow and nowhere near Bree! Whew! Nothing to worry about from Black Riders tonight, eh?” I never understood that it worked quite like this, but now that you say it, I realise it did have that effect on my expectations.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Feb 26 2015, 9:28pm
Post #18 of 18
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Yes, most of my friends who have attempted to read LotR and decided it was not for them dropped out somewhere in the Forest or Bombadil segments, and 'boredom', 'silliness', or 'child-ish story-telling' are usually the reason. A modern editor would probably have insisted on tightening up a lot of Book 1. After the Hobbits reach Bree, the story roles along splendidly. A couple of times I've suggested skipping from The Shadow of the Past to The Sign of the Prancing Pony on a first read-through. That works particularly well with movie-firsters.
Thank you for your excellent comments. The picture was quite easy to find: I just Googled for Fatty Bolger and selected Images. It was connected with a game.
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