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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Will Thranduil be seperated with Legolas for eternity if he didn't go west?
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nagaking
Registered User

Feb 19 2015, 8:00pm

Post #1 of 33 (1710 views)
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Will Thranduil be seperated with Legolas for eternity if he didn't go west? Can't Post

Lee has mentioned in the interview that Thranduil had never traveld to the west,but we all know that Legolas did. Does that mean that Thranduil has become a lingerer (not dead and will not be summoned) and will never see his son again? that's really sad...


Riven Delve
Tol Eressea


Feb 19 2015, 8:27pm

Post #2 of 33 (1275 views)
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What is the context for that interview? [In reply to] Can't Post

For me it would be helpful to know for sure whether Lee Pace was talking about Thranduil leaving (or not leaving) Middle-earth in the Fourth Age or whether he might simply have been referring to him being a Sindarin Elf.


“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”



Lindele
Gondor

Feb 19 2015, 9:19pm

Post #3 of 33 (1282 views)
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I'm afraid [In reply to] Can't Post

there's a big difference between 'had never' and 'will never'...

Legolas 'had never' been to Valinor either in the storyline of The Hobbit and LOTR.

I imagine that Thranduil eventually went just like all of the other elves.


dormouse
Half-elven


Feb 19 2015, 11:16pm

Post #4 of 33 (1213 views)
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"Behold! we are not bound forever to the circles of the world,... [In reply to] Can't Post

...and beyond them is more than memory."

(from the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen.)


DeadRabbits
Rohan


Feb 19 2015, 11:28pm

Post #5 of 33 (1205 views)
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All the other elves? [In reply to] Can't Post

Not all elves went to Valinor in the fourth age. Many remained in ME, and Thranduil's realm prospered, at least for a time, after the War of the Ring. Maybe he travelled west eventually, but it's also quite possible that he lingered and faded in ME.

Now now Bill, you swore this was a battle between warriors, not a bunch of miss nancies, so warriors is what I brought


nagaking
Registered User

Feb 20 2015, 3:39am

Post #6 of 33 (1148 views)
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so what is the fate of faded elves? [In reply to] Can't Post

can they still go to the hall of waiting?


Lindele
Gondor

Feb 20 2015, 5:28am

Post #7 of 33 (1110 views)
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It is my belief [In reply to] Can't Post

that in the end (not long after the War of the Ring) all of the elves (with of course the exception maybe of a rare few wanderers) went to Valinor.


Bombadil
Half-elven


Feb 20 2015, 6:30am

Post #8 of 33 (1104 views)
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Mox Nix..since Aragorn & Arwen [In reply to] Can't Post

gave birth to the FIRST Half-Elven..?

SSOoo...
Deep in our Collective
Ancestry we
ALL have
A little bit of ELF in
All of us.

OR? SSOoo bomby believes..

AND that is an Encouraging thought..?

Their Line never, EVER goes Un-Broken

Wink

www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"


DeadRabbits
Rohan


Feb 20 2015, 12:39pm

Post #9 of 33 (1061 views)
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Only their bodies faded... [In reply to] Can't Post

... while their spirits endured and remained in ME, becoming what humans later on would be referring to as forest spirits, fairies and such.

Now now Bill, you swore this was a battle between warriors, not a bunch of miss nancies, so warriors is what I brought


DeadRabbits
Rohan


Feb 20 2015, 12:46pm

Post #10 of 33 (1054 views)
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But remember that some of the elven realms flourished in the fourth age... [In reply to] Can't Post

... at least for some time. Celeborn and Thranduil divided Mirkwood between them, thus creating East Lorien. Elladan and Elrohir remained in Rivendell. Legolas also established a new elven kingdom in Ithilien. Cirdan is said to have lingered in ME for a long time during the fourth age.

Now now Bill, you swore this was a battle between warriors, not a bunch of miss nancies, so warriors is what I brought


nagaking
Registered User

Feb 20 2015, 1:38pm

Post #11 of 33 (1033 views)
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and they still join the battle of doomsday? [In reply to] Can't Post

 


zalmoxis
Bree

Feb 20 2015, 1:44pm

Post #12 of 33 (1041 views)
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Well,... [In reply to] Can't Post

obviously this quote refers to the ultimate fate of mortal men.


dormouse
Half-elven


Feb 20 2015, 2:37pm

Post #13 of 33 (1040 views)
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Obviously?.... Only mortal men? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd don't think so.... Something more is suggested in the ending of the Athrabeth, in which Finrod (elf) says to Andreth (mortal woman, who once loved - still loves - his brother Aegnor) about the ultimate end:

'But you are not for Arda. Whither you go you may find light. Await us there, my brother - and me.'

Tolkien doesn't spell these things out. Not all the ends are tied, which makes the world he created seem all the more real.... We don't have all the answers in the real world either.


zalmoxis
Bree

Feb 20 2015, 4:24pm

Post #14 of 33 (1006 views)
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Please... [In reply to] Can't Post

...note: I was referring to the provided quotation: Aragorn (mortal man) to Arwen (elf who chose a mortal life). What Finrod, according to his Elvish tradition, actually thought is stated rather clearly in the Athrabeth (HOME vol. 10, p 330 et seq.), although he was "mooved and amazed to discover [Andreth's] tradition" (p 333).


(This post was edited by zalmoxis on Feb 20 2015, 4:36pm)


dormouse
Half-elven


Feb 20 2015, 4:53pm

Post #15 of 33 (998 views)
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Yes - I know what you were referring to... [In reply to] Can't Post

We obviously see it differently. I'd find it hard to believe that Finrod's closing remark wasn't sincere, in the context of that whole conversation.


(This post was edited by dormouse on Feb 20 2015, 4:59pm)


zalmoxis
Bree

Feb 20 2015, 6:42pm

Post #16 of 33 (975 views)
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OK [In reply to] Can't Post

The Athrabeth is to some extent a reflection of JRRT's religion (which I do not share).


(This post was edited by zalmoxis on Feb 20 2015, 6:45pm)


dormouse
Half-elven


Feb 20 2015, 6:54pm

Post #17 of 33 (971 views)
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Fair enough... [In reply to] Can't Post

No reason why you should.


ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Feb 20 2015, 7:31pm

Post #18 of 33 (982 views)
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staying in M. Earth [In reply to] Can't Post

or departing to Valinor does not change the ultimate fate of an elf. People probably confuse this due to Arwens choice. It wasn't the fact she stayed that made her mortal, she actually chose mortality as she was of the half elven line. This is what determined that her parting with Elrond was permanent. No such situation exists with Legolas and Thranduil.


ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Feb 20 2015, 7:36pm

Post #19 of 33 (964 views)
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Tolkien says as much [In reply to] Can't Post

the Luthien and Beren bloodline, of the 3 races of Maia, Elf and Man results in a divine lineage in some people, carried down through the ages to the present day. It is a nice bookend for this mythology.


Adrianna
Lorien


Feb 21 2015, 7:08am

Post #20 of 33 (907 views)
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This place [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Called Valinor. What is it? From what I have seen is it a place where a elf, man or hobbit life has ended as far there spirit being in ME? I noticed that at the end of ROTK that Frodo left to go there I think.

Is that what is meant by the elves going west?

"I did free him. I freed his wretched head from his miserable shoulders."


dormouse
Half-elven


Feb 21 2015, 8:32am

Post #21 of 33 (899 views)
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It's the realm of the Valar, the immortals..... [In reply to] Can't Post

...and yes, when the elves go 'into the west' they are sailing to Valinor by an enchanted route only available to returning elves and to a few selected mortals - like Frodo and Bilbo.

The story tells that Valinor was set apart like this after the fall of Numenor. The King of Numenor (a man) was tricked by Sauron into believing that if he captured Valinor he could win immortality. He launched an attack by sea: to prevent it happening again the world was made round, and only the elven ships could still find the Straight Road across the sea to Valinor.


ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Feb 21 2015, 9:04am

Post #22 of 33 (896 views)
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The place itself has nothing to do with death, mortality or immortality though [In reply to] Can't Post

for example Frodo and Bilbo get to live out their remaining mortal days there, but they do die eventually as they would in Middle Earth. Whereas Galadriel and other elves would remain immortal in Valinor, still be physically the same, still have spirits housed in their physical bodies. Beyond Valinor or at least west of it's populated areas are the Halls of Mandos (one of the Valar). Some of the halls are for the spirits of dead humans to await the changing of the world (ie the end of it in its current form and it's rebuilding free of Melkor/Morgoth's taint) others are for the spirits of dead elves, that are eventually reincarnated into identical versions of their previous bodies and return to live among the other elves, Maia (such as Gandalf in his natural form, not the old wizard we know) and Valar. Please note these points changed numerous times over the years of Tolkiens writing but what I have written may be considered a general overview that could be improved upon or added to by others here.


(This post was edited by ElendilTheShort on Feb 21 2015, 9:10am)


DeadRabbits
Rohan


Feb 21 2015, 9:56am

Post #23 of 33 (886 views)
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That goes beyond my knowledge. [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry. Maybe some of our fellow ToRN members know?

Now now Bill, you swore this was a battle between warriors, not a bunch of miss nancies, so warriors is what I brought


Adrianna
Lorien


Feb 21 2015, 10:37am

Post #24 of 33 (879 views)
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Thank you all! [In reply to] Can't Post

For the information. Knowledge is always good.Smile

"I did free him. I freed his wretched head from his miserable shoulders."


mae govannen
Tol Eressea


Feb 21 2015, 1:32pm

Post #25 of 33 (872 views)
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So glad you mention the Athrabeth... [In reply to] Can't Post

My favorite piece of writing by Tolkien, precisely because more is being envisaged than the fates of the two species as usually described by Tolkien.

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)

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