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*** 'The Fellowship of the Ring' ch. 10A, 'Strider' - Events and Miscellany

arithmancer
Grey Havens


Feb 20 2015, 4:51am

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*** 'The Fellowship of the Ring' ch. 10A, 'Strider' - Events and Miscellany Can't Post

(*) When the three Hobbits return after their eventful visit with the other customers in the common-room of the inn, Merry is not in the parlor. No one seems concerned - should they have been/were you (perhaps in light of Pippin's comment in the previous chapter that it is "safer indoors")?

(*) Aragorn and Frodo discuss what happened in the common-room at the end of Frodo's song. Frodo claims it was an accident. "I wonder," said Strider. "Accident, then." What do you think Strider wonders?

(*) Three months past, Gandalf was in Bree and asked Butterbur to send a letter to Frodo. We learn Gandalf intended Frodo to leave no later than July, and that he himself has not been seen since Spring. What might we surmise has happened? Frodo speculates that Gandalf's mysterious disappearance is connected to the Black Riders. Is this authorial misdirection?

(*) We learn black horsemen have come through Bree. Strider tells of it, and Butterbur describes his own interaction with them. We know Bill Ferny and the Southerner slipped out right after Frodo's disappearing act. Merry, after passing out, needs to be rescued by Nob from two men who are about to carry him away. What is the impact of all these developments?

(*) Our heroes make plans for the immediate future. Butterbur's folk will keep watch.The Hobbits will spend night hiding out in parlor while dummies sleep in the Hobbit rooms of the Inn. Butterbur's folk will They will leave early, and make for Rivendell by way of Weathertop. Thoughts on these various plans?

(*) Harking back to Black Fox's discussion and Todorov's "fantastic hesitation" - I saw three instances of this sort of language appear in this chapter. When Strider falls silent after describing the Black Riders, we learn "the light seemed to have grown dim" . Also relating to Strider, when he tells Sam that if he were the villains Sam suspects he is, he could kill them now - he "seemed suddenly to grow taller". Finally, Merry in his account of his decision to follow a Black Rider states, "I could hardly help myself. I seemed to be drawn somehow". What are the similarities and differences of these instances? What purposes do they serve?

(*) Before lying down to sleep at the end of the chapter, Frodo peers out the window and sees "The Sickle was swinging bright above the shoulders of Bree-hill". The footnote informs us this is the constellation known as the Great Bear, or also the Plough. Google tells me the Plough is the name of the constellation we call the Big Dipper here in the United States. Do you like this reminder that Middle Earth is supposed to be our world? Why is this included, just to add scenery? Does it have a meaning?



Kim
Valinor


Feb 20 2015, 5:36am

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A few thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

(*) Aragorn and Frodo discuss what happened in the common-room at the end of Frodo's song. Frodo claims it was an accident. "I wonder," said Strider. "Accident, then." What do you think Strider wonders?
I think Strider is wondering if the Ring is already exerting an influence over Frodo.


(*) Three months past, Gandalf was in Bree and asked Butterbur to send a letter to Frodo. We learn Gandalf intended Frodo to leave no later than July, and that he himself has not been seen since Spring. What might we surmise has happened? Frodo speculates that Gandalf's mysterious disappearance is connected to the Black Riders. Is this authorial misdirection?
The thing that struck me about this revelation was that since the letter was so late in being "delivered", they were very lucky to have got as far as they did. It does appear that Gandalf may have been aware of the Black Riders, and wanted Frodo to get away in order to avoid them. I was kind of surprised this didn't throw them into more of a panic to leave immediately, especially since they knew the Black Riders were around Bree.

#OneLastTime


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Feb 20 2015, 12:43pm

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Though... [In reply to] Can't Post

Regarding their decision to spend the night - Gandalf's letter did explicitly advise (in a separate postscript, even) that they should never travel at night. Also, I think the Hobbits probably felt safer inside the inn.



Bracegirdle
Valinor


Feb 20 2015, 2:28pm

Post #4 of 10 (1419 views)
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Warm and cozy.. [In reply to] Can't Post

(*) When the three Hobbits return after their eventful visit with the other customers in the common-room of the inn, Merry is not in the parlor. No one seems concerned - should they have been/were you (perhaps in light of Pippin's comment in the previous chapter that it is "safer indoors")?
Well, it’s always ‘safer’ indoors. I think the Hobbits, having finally made it to Bree, felt some safety being behind the “deep dike with a thick hedge” and some apparently friendly people.

(*) Aragorn and Frodo discuss what happened in the common-room at the end of Frodo's song. Frodo claims it was an accident. "I wonder," said Strider. "Accident, then." What do you think Strider wonders?
Strider knows that Frodo bears the Master Ring, and his “I wonder” certainly pertains to this, if just as an afterthought.

(*) Frodo speculates that Gandalf's mysterious disappearance is connected to the Black Riders. Is this authorial misdirection?
Yes, a Tolkien cliff-hanger.

(*) Do you like this reminder that Middle Earth is supposed to be our world? Why is this included, just to add scenery? Does it have a meaning?
Yes, Tolkien makes several allusions that Middle-earth IS our planet, of several thousand years ago. Besides what you mention there is in Appendix D (The Calendars) - The year no doubt was of the same length…, (footnote) 365 days, 5 hours, 48 minutes, 46 seconds. There are also a couple of references in “Letters”. And certainly its meaning is to remind us of that and as you say “just to add scenery”.




Bracegirdle
Valinor


Feb 20 2015, 2:41pm

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Gandalf knew [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
It does appear that Gandalf may have been aware of the Black Riders, and wanted Frodo to get away in order to avoid them. I was kind of surprised this didn't throw them into more of a panic to leave immediately, especially since they knew the Black Riders were around Bree.

Gandalf met Radagast near Bree at the tail end of June, and Radagast told him ”The Nine are abroad again. They have crossed the River secretly and are moving westward.” (Council of Elrond)




Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 20 2015, 9:47pm

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More thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
(*) When the three Hobbits return after their eventful visit with the other customers in the common-room of the inn, Merry is not in the parlor. No one seems concerned - should they have been/were you (perhaps in light of Pippin's comment in the previous chapter that it is "safer indoors")?

A key moment, I think, in two ways. We lose Merry's established trustworthy insight here, and we see how absurdly unaware these Hobbits are, even the brave Merry, to looming danger. I can somewhat absolve Merry here, as it is Strider who stands up at Weathertop and blows their cover (tough as Tolkien points out, almost as an alibi, the Ring draws the Nine too). So here we have Pippin actually being right, like the broken clock, I think. Wink




(*) Aragorn and Frodo discuss what happened in the common-room at the end of Frodo's song. Frodo claims it was an accident. "I wonder," said Strider. "Accident, then." What do you think Strider wonders?


Maybe he is wondering at that point how much the Ring is already affecting Frodo's choices?






(*) Three months past, Gandalf was in Bree and asked Butterbur to send a letter to Frodo. We learn Gandalf intended Frodo to leave no later than July, and that he himself has not been seen since Spring. What might we surmise has happened? Frodo speculates that Gandalf's mysterious disappearance is connected to the Black Riders. Is this authorial misdirection?


I think the tie-in here is the knowledge imparted that Gandalf has been going into great danger for years. It may not be as much misdirection as the muddying of Gandalf's mysterious errands in order to change his status from the Wizard in TH to the Olorin of LOTR. I think the veil of unknown peril is a good literary way of piquing the reader's interest in this character, as well as developing the dual-nature of Gandalf: the crotchety Wizard and the sacred Kindler from the (unnamed) Valar.




(*) We learn black horsemen have come through Bree. Strider tells of it, and Butterbur describes his own interaction with them. We know Bill Ferny and the Southerner slipped out right after Frodo's disappearing act. Merry, after passing out, needs to be rescued by Nob from two men who are about to carry him away. What is the impact of all these developments?


More suspicion on Ferny and the mysterious Southerner: which perhaps widens the scope of what the world at large is doing, and also underscores Gollum's long standing hatred of Bilbo. Because without Gollum, there would be no Southerner, I think.




(*) Our heroes make plans for the immediate future. Butterbur's folk will keep watch.The Hobbits will spend night hiding out in parlor while dummies sleep in the Hobbit rooms of the Inn. Butterbur's folk will They will leave early, and make for Rivendell by way of Weathertop. Thoughts on these various plans?


We have that emphasis on Gandalf's instructions here: do not travel by night. And Weathertop is such a mixed blessing, in truth. It feels to me a very habitual place for Strider, and thus by long habit and casualness maybe it leads them into a mistake of sorts. The exposure of their location to the Nine and the wounding of Frodo.




(*) Harking back to Black Fox's discussion and Todorov's "fantastic hesitation" - I saw three instances of this sort of language appear in this chapter. When Strider falls silent after describing the Black Riders, we learn "the light seemed to have grown dim" . Also relating to Strider, when he tells Sam that if he were the villains Sam suspects he is, he could kill them now - he "seemed suddenly to grow taller". Finally, Merry in his account of his decision to follow a Black Rider states, "I could hardly help myself. I seemed to be drawn somehow". What are the similarities and differences of these instances? What purposes do they serve?


I think they all seem to have some relation to the way that the spirit of the beholder reacts to events in the real world. As an authorial device, they are juuuust this side of magic: does it happen, or does it not? As Tolkien I think wanted to avoid too much 'magic' this is a way to express those things without the tale descending too far into the overwrought and unbelievable.




(*) Before lying down to sleep at the end of the chapter, Frodo peers out the window and sees "The Sickle was swinging bright above the shoulders of Bree-hill". The footnote informs us this is the constellation known as the Great Bear, or also the Plough. Google tells me the Plough is the name of the constellation we call the Big Dipper here in the United States. Do you like this reminder that Middle Earth is supposed to be our world? Why is this included, just to add scenery? Does it have a meaning?


Yes, I like it for just that reason: the linking of that world with this world.Cool












Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Feb 21 2015, 3:49pm

Post #7 of 10 (1391 views)
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"I wonder." Maybe it's another fossil. [In reply to] Can't Post

In the draft version, Frodo was using the ring to prank Farmer Maggot. Maybe Strider (or Trotter) suspects him of goofing off with it again.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Feb 22 2015, 3:15am

Post #8 of 10 (1379 views)
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Belated thoughts... [In reply to] Can't Post

(*) Aragorn and Frodo discuss what happened in the common-room at the end of Frodo's song. Frodo claims it was an accident. "I wonder," said Strider. "Accident, then." What do you think Strider wonders?

Knee-jerk reaction: He's wondering about the sentience of the Ring!

More considered response: I probably think the above, because I am wondering about it!

(*) Three months past, Gandalf was in Bree and asked Butterbur to send a letter to Frodo. We learn Gandalf intended Frodo to leave no later than July, and that he himself has not been seen since Spring. What might we surmise has happened? Frodo speculates that Gandalf's mysterious disappearance is connected to the Black Riders. Is this authorial misdirection?

It is very probable given that these are the only declared 'servants of Evil' and we do find out later that Gandalf did fight a match with the Riders. I think it is clever mis-direction, and one that uses what we know (Or more properly, our ignorance of the larger world of Middle-Earth) of the perils that face them to let us draw our own conclusion. Logical deductions are so much dearer when we are making the inference, so it lends more weight to our faulty conception without allowing us to cry 'foul' on the author.

(*) We learn black horsemen have come through Bree. Strider tells of it, and Butterbur describes his own interaction with them. We know Bill Ferny and the Southerner slipped out right after Frodo's disappearing act. Merry, after passing out, needs to be rescued by Nob from two men who are about to carry him away. What is the impact of all these developments?

More fear and uncertainty. Maybe we are thinking this place of 'refuge' wheer we supposed to find 'help', has turned into a trap!

Tolkien himself confesses he was stuck here for ?months?, and he invented Strider/Trotter/The Ranger to get the Hobbits out and away. Mayeb this build up is part of the reason why he got so bogged down?

(*) Our heroes make plans for the immediate future. Butterbur's folk will keep watch.The Hobbits will spend night hiding out in parlor while dummies sleep in the Hobbit rooms of the Inn. Butterbur's folk will They will leave early, and make for Rivendell by way of Weathertop. Thoughts on these various plans?

Logical precautions. I can think of none better. Though, in the face of the undefined terror of the Nazgul (and Strider's fear increasing it), I get the feeling that these precautions feel a bit thin protection.

(*) Harking back to Black Fox's discussion and Todorov's "fantastic hesitation" - I saw three instances of this sort of language appear in this chapter. When Strider falls silent after describing the Black Riders, we learn "the light seemed to have grown dim" . Also relating to Strider, when he tells Sam that if he were the villains Sam suspects he is, he could kill them now - he "seemed suddenly to grow taller". Finally, Merry in his account of his decision to follow a Black Rider states, "I could hardly help myself. I seemed to be drawn somehow". What are the similarities and differences of these instances? What purposes do they serve?

Allowing us to fill in the blanks. If an author wrote how horrid something was, down to the last detail, he would have to depend on his own imagination to communicate that fear and loathing, but leaving it open-ended and barely sketched, we fill in teh deatails of our own idea of a terrible menace or nasty situation

(*) Before lying down to sleep at the end of the chapter, Frodo peers out the window and sees "The Sickle was swinging bright above the shoulders of Bree-hill". The footnote informs us this is the constellation known as the Great Bear, or also the Plough. Google tells me the Plough is the name of the constellation we call the Big Dipper here in the United States. Do you like this reminder that Middle Earth is supposed to be our world? Why is this included, just to add scenery? Does it have a meaning?

Going off to the Sil for a reference... The Sickle was set by Varda to swing above Melkor's(Morgoth) strongold of Utumno as a sign of judgement and impending domm upon him. Does that mean anything to anyone?


Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Darkstone
Immortal


Feb 23 2015, 9:10pm

Post #9 of 10 (1369 views)
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Eärendil’s toe? [In reply to] Can't Post

(*) When the three Hobbits return after their eventful visit with the other customers in the common-room of the inn, Merry is not in the parlor. No one seems concerned - should they have been…

They’re so full of food and ale that they wouldn’t have been concerned even if all the Men and Hobbits in the common-room had vanished, which come to think it they did.

However I’m surprised Strider, who “had to study you first, and make sure of you. The Enemy has set traps for me before now.” didn’t realize that he hadn’t had an opportunity to study Merry as well yet so logically he shouldn’t have revealed himself until he had.


/were you (perhaps in light of Pippin's comment in the previous chapter that it is "safer indoors")?

I figured it was time for Hobbit#4 to die in order to show how serious the situation was.


(*) Aragorn and Frodo discuss what happened in the common-room at the end of Frodo's song. Frodo claims it was an accident. "I wonder," said Strider. "Accident, then." What do you think Strider wonders?

Either some one, or some *thing*, is controlling Frodo, or else this is a trap so convoluted it would make his head spin, or both.


(*) Three months past, Gandalf was in Bree and asked Butterbur to send a letter to Frodo. We learn Gandalf intended Frodo to leave no later than July, and that he himself has not been seen since Spring. What might we surmise has happened?

That Gandalf has been captured by the Enemy, tortured, and brainwashed so that when he returns he'll propose they do something absolutely ridiculous with the Ring like take it straight into Mordor right within the reach of Sauron.

Hahahahahaha!

(Er, that was a joke, Professsor...)


Frodo speculates that Gandalf's mysterious disappearance is connected to the Black Riders. Is this authorial misdirection?

Personally I hadn’t trusted Tolkien since Bombadil.


(*) We learn black horsemen have come through Bree. Strider tells of it, and Butterbur describes his own interaction with them. We know Bill Ferny and the Southerner slipped out right after Frodo's disappearing act. Merry, after passing out, needs to be rescued by Nob from two men who are about to carry him away. What is the impact of all these developments?

The plot thickens! The game’s afoot! What’s all this then?


(*) Our heroes make plans for the immediate future. Butterbur's folk will keep watch.The Hobbits will spend night hiding out in parlor while dummies sleep in the Hobbit rooms of the Inn.

Er, now which place will Pippin be?


They will leave early,….

The early bird gets the worm, but the early worm should have slept late.


…and make for Rivendell by way of Weathertop.

And we know how well that turned out.


Thoughts on these various plans?

As Moltke said, "no plan survives contact with the enemy". Plus these plans were made by committee and the results show it.


(*) Harking back to Black Fox's discussion and Todorov's "fantastic hesitation" - I saw three instances of this sort of language appear in this chapter. When Strider falls silent after describing the Black Riders, we learn "the light seemed to have grown dim" . Also relating to Strider, when he tells Sam that if he were the villains Sam suspects he is, he could kill them now - he "seemed suddenly to grow taller". Finally, Merry in his account of his decision to follow a Black Rider states, "I could hardly help myself. I seemed to be drawn somehow". What are the similarities and differences of these instances?

Similarity of “seeming” moments, differences in perceptions of quality, quantity, and motivation.


What purposes do they serve?

To keep the reader off balance in much the way we forget the hobbits must be, in a town and inn of Big Folk. Without these sudden jolts we might forget that the hobbits are shorter than Strider, Butterbur, and the Men who attack.


(*) Before lying down to sleep at the end of the chapter, Frodo peers out the window and sees "The Sickle was swinging bright above the shoulders of Bree-hill". The footnote informs us this is the constellation known as the Great Bear, or also the Plough. Google tells me the Plough is the name of the constellation we call the Big Dipper here in the United States. Do you like this reminder that Middle Earth is supposed to be our world?

Nice that it’s close enough to our time to recognize.


Why is this included,…

Interesting to contrast with Sam’s star, which meant something wonderful.


just to add scenery?

At heart LOTR *is* just a travelogue by Tolkien: “My world and welcome to it!”


Does it have a meaning?

It looks like a question mark indicating Frodo’s confusion, or maybe it’s a ladle indicating Frodo is thinking about food as all hobbits do, or maybe it’s a bear’s behind indicating Frodo is feeling rather foolish about his recent actions, or maybe it’s a bare behind indicting Frodo is feeling rather naked to the world at the moment, or maybe it’s Odin’s chariot indicating that Gandalf is free and on the move, or maybe it’s Aurvandil’s or Eärendil’s toe from the Eddas indicating that Frodo might need a foot up the backside in order to get going in the morning, or maybe it’s the Sickle of the Valar indicating either that the Valar are watching over Frodo and his quest or else that Melkor is getting ready to slice Frodo’s head right off, or maybe it’s just a random arrangement of stars indicating that sense of disorientation and confusion in the face of an apparently meaningless or absurd world where traditional systematic or academic philosophies in both style and content are too abstract and remote from concrete hobbit experience but knowing Tolkien probably not.

******************************************
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a wonderful town!!!
Mount Doom blew up,
And the Black Tower's down!!
The orcs all fell in a hole in the ground!
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a heckuva town!!!

-Lord of the Rings: The Musical, music by Leonard Bernstein, lyrics by Betty Comden and Adolph Green

(This post was edited by Darkstone on Feb 23 2015, 9:18pm)


sador
Half-elven


Feb 25 2015, 11:32am

Post #10 of 10 (1341 views)
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What of your promise? [In reply to] Can't Post


In your first post of this discussion, you wrote:

Quote

I had an opinion as to what this means now that Trotter is Strider, and a Man, that I decided to save for my discussion. But first, what do you think?


???

No one seems concerned - should they have been
Yes.

were you
Did I notice on my first reading? I'm not sure.

(perhaps in light of Pippin's comment in the previous chapter that it is "safer indoors")?
Having just seen how safe it was indoors (and Pippin's own contribution to that 'safety') - should I have been concerned?
Possibly, considering the fact that Ferny, the Southrener and Harry left immediately after Frodo's pratfall - and Harry for one had a score to settle with Merry.

Frodo claims it was an accident. "I wonder," said Strider. "Accident, then." What do you think Strider wonders?
When corrected, always cast a doubt on the correcting fact. That's a good policy.


But Frodo is likely to want to disappear when he is embarrassed - as he told Gandalf earlier, regarding the visit of the Sackville-Bagginses.
And the disappearing in similar circumstances (the Sackville-Bagginses again) has betrayed the Ring once - but only to Merry.

What might we surmise has happened?
Anything from seasonal floods blocking Tharbad to gout.

Frodo speculates that Gandalf's mysterious disappearance is connected to the Black Riders. Is this authorial misdirection?
As Bracegirdle pointed out, it is somehow connected.

But it just serves to show us how often Strider can be wrong.

What is the impact of all these developments?

"Daddy, don't turn out the light. I don't want nightmares"

Our heroes make plans for the immediate future.

Who is writing them down? There seem to be a lot, and can we trust our heroes to remember them?

Butterbur's folk will keep watch.
Much good it did.
And I for one believe Butterbur he did, despite the author's "fantastic hesitation" of "or so he said".

The Hobbits will spend night hiding out in parlor while dummies sleep in the Hobbit rooms of the Inn.
As we'll see in the next chapter, even a dummy like Fatty Bolger will find it hard to sleep on a night like this.

They will leave early
Like Merry, or like Bilbo?

and make for Rivendell by way of Weathertop.
They couldn't find a more exposed place to go to.

When Strider falls silent after describing the Black Riders, we learn "the light seemed to have grown dim" .

Hallucinations. The haven't had anything to drink for a long time, and are experiencing the Horrors.

Also relating to Strider, when he tells Sam that if he were the villains Sam suspects he is, he could kill them now - he "seemed suddenly to grow taller".
The same trick Gandalf played on Bilbo. And both Galadriel and Faramir will, too.
Had Gollum learned it, he could have had the Ring for asking, instead of having to plot with Shelob.

Finally, Merry in his account of his decision to follow a Black Rider states, "I could hardly help myself. I seemed to be drawn somehow".
This is not "fantastic hesitation" - it's just a normal excuse. Just what my daughter would say, after being asked to wash dishes but ending up watching Arthur with her sister.

Do you like this reminder that Middle Earth is supposed to be our world?

You mean this shoehorning of the Red Book Conceit?
Sometimes I do, sometimes I do not.

Why is this included, just to add scenery?
The footnote wasn't.

Does it have a meaning?
Well, it's not the Grim Reaper - that fellow walks around with a scythe.

If only they had a hammer to go with it!

If I had a hammer,
I'd hammer in the morning,
I'd hammer in the evening,
All over this land,
I'd hammer out danger,
I'd hammer out a warning,
I'd hammer out love between,
My brothers and my sisters,
All over this land.





Thank you, Arithmancer, for leading this chapter's discussion!


 
 

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