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Sebastian the Hedgehog
Rivendell
Feb 18 2015, 6:17am
Post #1 of 28
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Legolas vs. Other Elves
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Legolas is known for having keen eyesight and hearing. Is this special for him or are these common traits among elves? Or is it perhaps due to the fact that he is a warrior for the Woodland Realm, in which case other elf warriors would possess the same qualities? Any book references would be appreciated!
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Nerven
Rivendell
Feb 18 2015, 1:56pm
Post #2 of 28
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Legolas is actualy nothing compared to those mighty first age elves, like Galadriel, Elrond, Glorfindel and those in Aman, Fingolfin for example, who wounded Morgoth 7 times.
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Feb 18 2015, 2:17pm
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In my upcoming ‘Fellowship of the Ring’ discussion Chapter 12, Glorfindel is able to read the “evil things” on the hilt of the Morgul knife that stabbed Frodo, whereas Aragorn was not.
I’m sure you’re probably asking about distance vision… but….
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Feb 18 2015, 2:45pm
Post #4 of 28
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There's a keen sighted Elf in Gondolin...
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... if I recall correctly his name was Laigolas "green-leaf" or Legolast "keen-sight"... but perhaps both were his names, as it was said at one point that the Noldor delighted to give similar sounding names of dissimilar meaning (and in that light, Legolas, the ordinary form, is a confusion of the two).
Anyway he lived in Gondolin and was night sighted.
Sorry, I couldn't resist 
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Girdle of Melian
Lorien
Feb 18 2015, 3:40pm
Post #5 of 28
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His father's feats barely compare to what Legolas has done; he has super mario skills. I don't even think any of the high Elves has been portrayed as much as his skill level...lol
Of course, that's the movie.
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BlackFox
Half-elven
Feb 18 2015, 10:19pm
Post #6 of 28
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I've always found it interesting...
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... how Legolas is often singled out in The Passing of the Grey Company, a chapter in which two other elves, Elladan and Elrohir, are also present.
Here are a few examples:
The light was still grey as they rode, for the sun had not yet climbed over the black ridges of the Haunted Mountain before them. A dread fell on them, even as they passed between the lines of ancient stones and so came to the Dimholt. There under the gloom of black trees that not even Legolas could long endure they found a hollow place opening at the mountain’s root, and right in their path stood a single mighty stone like a finger of doom.
The company halted, and there was not a heart among them that did not quail, unless it were the heart of Legolas of the Elves, for whom the ghosts of Men have no terror.
But when the dawn came, cold and pale, Aragorn rose at once, and he led the Company forth upon the journey of greatest haste and weariness that any among them had known, save he alone, and only his will held them to go on. No other mortal Men could have endured it, none but the Dúnedain of the North, and with them Gimli the Dwarf and Legolas of the Elves.
Maybe it's simply because he is a more prominent character or maybe it's nothing, but it's something that stands out for me whenever I read this chapter.
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Feb 18 2015, 10:38pm
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I wonder if it could have anything to do with Elladan and Elrohir being Peredhil and not yet having made “the choice”?
Hmm… Did the brothers have ALL the characteristics of the truly Elven being but “Half-elven”?
But, yes, Legolas does get all the press. . .
Just wondering . . . and a thought.. Cheers!
BG
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Feb 18 2015, 10:55pm
Post #8 of 28
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I find that chapter odd, honestly
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Singling out Legolas as the only Elf who is seemingly present makes me stop and think, "So what about Elrond's sons? Did Tolkien forget they were there?" They were Elvish enough to be immortal to this point, and their mother was pure Elvish, so regardless of their choice in the future, they were living as Elves, as Arwen did until she made her choice. So were they afraid like mortal men, or as brave as Legolas, or somewhere in-between? And given their exalted bloodline, shouldn't they have been braver/more powerful than Legolas?
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Feb 19 2015, 1:27am
Post #10 of 28
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The brothers are background characters.
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We don't hear much about the Rangers in this section, either. The focus is entirely on the three main characters.
I think a good in-story reason is that these three presumably told their stories to Frodo, Sam, or whoever acted as the historian here, whereas the others were not interviewed for their perspectives.
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Feb 19 2015, 3:09am
Post #11 of 28
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or Sam or Frodo (if you choose) preferred to follow the members of the Fellowship and understandably give them preferential and extended treatment (most especially if this part of the history was written by Sam or Frodo).
Glancing through the chapter I find Halbarad mentioned a couple times before their entry into the Paths of the Dead, and again at the Stone of Erech; and Elladan mentioned once inside and once outside near the source of the Morthond. I find nothing of Elrohir in this chapter except being one of the sons of Elrond, before entry into the Paths. So they all weren’t completely discarded, but certainly, as you say “background characters”.
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Maciliel
Valinor
Feb 19 2015, 3:38am
Post #12 of 28
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would it be blasphemy to say that i think tolkien forgot about them?
he was a master, but not infallible.
perhaps a thread he meant to spin into a (slightly) larger strand, but never got around to it?
conversely, they get as much face time / presence as arwen, their sister. arwen figures large in the story not because of the size of her part, but as an essential figure to be won if the kingdom of arnor and gondor is to be successfully restored.
perhaps if dame ioreth and elrohir fell in love, and elrond would not allow the marriage until dame ioreth successfully completed the quest for albino athelas, elrohir might feel more important to the story.
cheers -- T
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Elarie
Grey Havens
Feb 19 2015, 2:39pm
Post #13 of 28
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A question about Elven eyesight and the Faery realm
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This thread came along at a very opportune time and addresses something I've been wondering about since yesterday. I'm reading "Tolkien: Man and Myth" and there is a quote in it from "Smith of Wooten Major" that makes me question the way I've previously understood the superior eyesight of the elves (and I do think it's all elves, just because Aragorn mentions it - "keen are the eyes of the elves" during the chase after Merry and Pippin). Smith enters Faery, and the quote is "There the air is so lucid that eyes can see the red tongues of birds as they sing on the trees upon the far side of the valley..."
In the past I just assumed that elves had "better" eyes than people, but my understanding of Tolkien's elves also includes the idea that one of their innate characteristics is that they "walk" or "exist" in both worlds at once, our world and Faery. If so, then the superior eyesight of elves has nothing to do with their biological, physical eyes, but is because they are always seeing through the eyes of the world of Faery, the true world behind the world, so to speak.
Any thoughts?
__________________
Gold is the strife of kinsmen,
and fire of the flood-tide,
and the path of the serpent.
(Old Icelandic Fe rune poem)
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Feb 19 2015, 6:09pm
Post #14 of 28
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whose eyes were like cats for the dark...
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...as I remember...
and he was Noldorin.
And in my copy, it was spelled Legolas. (from those earlier forms, of course)
Na 'Aear, na 'Aear! Mýl 'lain nallol, I sûl ribiel a i falf 'loss reviol...
To the sea, to the sea, the white gulls are crying, the wind is blowing and the white foam is flying...
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Feb 19 2015, 6:17pm
Post #15 of 28
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is that Legolas is the Elvish representative for the reader. He's the only one we spend time with, travel with, so he becomes an icon of Elvishness. We expect the others to be similar (of course, as living beings, they are not homogenous!). But I think he is "a fairly typical young Elf" as some reviewer noted.
For me, the characteristics that endeared him to me were; his closeness to the natural world ("they are not supernatural... in fact they are far more natural than we..." said Tolkien, somewhere); his being the sidekick to a Mere Mortal (Ok, soooo, he gets to be the King that saves Middle Earth from Impending Doom), setting aside his Princelyness and Immortalness to support Strider and the others... (see also: Finrod, who lays down his crown to assist Beren on an impossible quest)(and see also: Voronwe who leads a Mere Mortal into the Hidden Kingdom and aids him as a sidekick)(also Beleg...)(Tolkien had this habit of setting Awesome Immortals up as sidekicks to his Mortal heroes).
With few visuals to go on as I read the books for the first time, I glommed onto this character pretty much because everything he said or did was something that resonated with me.
The "superpowers" demonstrated by Legolas were subtle, as was "magic" in general in LOTR. That poked the whole world of Middle Earth just a notch beyond ordinary reality, and made it far more understandable, far more believable.
Na 'Aear, na 'Aear! Mýl 'lain nallol, I sûl ribiel a i falf 'loss reviol...
To the sea, to the sea, the white gulls are crying, the wind is blowing and the white foam is flying...
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Feb 19 2015, 6:20pm
Post #16 of 28
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I think there, he embodies the spiritual, the Light...
The Company is going into great Darkness, darkness of the spirit as well as of the world, and for some of it, the Elf is so rooted in the Light that he knows the Dark is transitory and powerless.
In other situations, it is so utterly Dark, that it affects even him.
Na 'Aear, na 'Aear! Mýl 'lain nallol, I sûl ribiel a i falf 'loss reviol...
To the sea, to the sea, the white gulls are crying, the wind is blowing and the white foam is flying...
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Feb 19 2015, 6:26pm
Post #17 of 28
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I hadn't thought of that!
I think it's possible. Tolkien was always writing on some spiritual level. And leaving things open enough for "applicability", or the interpretation of the reader.
It may be more of a kind of spiritual sight.
Like the walking on snow thing. it's not because he weighs less. It's like those martial artists in Crouching tiger... dancing among the bamboo fronds or flying over houses... it's a spiritual/energy manipulation thing.
Na 'Aear, na 'Aear! Mýl 'lain nallol, I sûl ribiel a i falf 'loss reviol...
To the sea, to the sea, the white gulls are crying, the wind is blowing and the white foam is flying...
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Feb 19 2015, 6:50pm
Post #18 of 28
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And in my copy, it was spelled Legolas. (from those earlier forms, of course)
Yes it's spelled Legolas in the early Fall of Gondolin proper. It's only in notes that Tolkien plays with the idea that the name of this Elf is really Laigolas Legolast, and that he was called Legolas from a confusion of his two real names.
My post in answer to this thread was a bit tongue in cheek, since the question was about Legolas of Mirkwood. Tolkien surely borrowed the name (from his own earlier writing) Legolas for this character in The Lord of the Rings, and ultimately gave the name a different etymology to not only fit the new language scenario, but the Silvan circumstance of Legolas' home (Laigolast Legolast existed in the language called Gnomish)...
... but it's also interesting that his name was once related (in a sense) to a name meaning "keen sight", given the question.
For myself I tend to doubt this Elf from the early Gondolin tale was going to retain the name Legolas, but as Tolkien only revised the story up to a point... well if so (if I guess right), we will seemingly never know the new name!
Although maybe it would have been Laegolas of Gondolin, considering that in the new scenario this was the true Sindarin form of the name, with Legolas being the result of a Silvan dialect.
Another guess at what Tolkien might have done, although the true Sindarin form itself is attested.
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Feb 19 2015, 7:22pm
Post #19 of 28
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what would have developed in Middle Earth if Tolkien had had more time....
as it was, he gave us a classic.
Na 'Aear, na 'Aear! Mýl 'lain nallol, I sûl ribiel a i falf 'loss reviol...
To the sea, to the sea, the white gulls are crying, the wind is blowing and the white foam is flying...
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Elarie
Grey Havens
Feb 19 2015, 8:52pm
Post #20 of 28
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I've always wondered about the "lightness" of the elves and the walking on top of the snow. Perhaps the keen elven eyesight and the clarity of vision that Tolkien describes in the land of Faery comes from that Bible verse, "For now we see through a glass darkly..." (just a thought) but I can't figure out at all where the weightlessness comes from or what it means. Unless maybe it's just Tolkien's way of saying that mortals live in the physical world and immortals live in the spiritual world and are "above" the physical. ???
(I'm guessing that something as noticeable as snow-walking has been discussed before but if so I missed it or I've forgotten, so sorry if this is a repetition.)
__________________
Gold is the strife of kinsmen,
and fire of the flood-tide,
and the path of the serpent.
(Old Icelandic Fe rune poem)
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Feb 20 2015, 4:04pm
Post #21 of 28
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...which tend to stretch the reality of the arts...
you often see "wire-fu".. think Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, where the kung-fu artists are leaping over houses like Superman, having swordfights in the tops of swaying bamboo, and other wonders of "weightlessness".
You see a real version of this in things like parkour; real world people doing impossible things.
Martial arts are full of that sort of "mind over body" thing. The basic concept is that you are moving energy (in tai chi, you can feel your hands heat up, tingle... you can feel the position of someone else's hands, or their body, with your eyes closed if you are good. It's alll about energy.
I remember some film (again, a fantastic exaggeration of martial arts skills) in which the hero runs over water.
I think it was Marco Polo who wrote that he observed flying or levitating monks.
At any rate, there is a tradition, both in myth and in reality, of skilled martial artists being able to go beyond the "normal" bonds of gravity.
I think after many centuries of practice, you could walk on snow, no problem.
and energy and spirit are intertwined
Na 'Aear, na 'Aear! Mýl 'lain nallol, I sûl ribiel a i falf 'loss reviol...
To the sea, to the sea, the white gulls are crying, the wind is blowing and the white foam is flying...
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HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell
Feb 20 2015, 5:30pm
Post #22 of 28
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I think the film you are referring too...
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Is "Hero," which stars Jet Li. I know it's a bit off topic, but it was a great martial arts movie (there is a fantastic fight between Li and another character over a lake, stunning visuals where they both run on water during a swordfight).
Anyway, your analogy is good. Like how you pulled out a different genre to make your point.
Might makes Right!
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Meneldor
Valinor
Feb 21 2015, 12:07am
Post #23 of 28
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Also sensei Chung in Remo Williams.
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"To do this, you must run very fast."
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Feb 21 2015, 2:21pm
Post #24 of 28
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"To do this, you must run very fast."
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David Carradine as Kwai Chang Caine in Kung Fu always ambled very slowly but carried a Big Fist… 
Pow! Wham! Socko! 
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Feb 21 2015, 4:26pm
Post #25 of 28
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Hero was one of a "trilogy" of unrelated Chinese martial arts films that came out within a short time of each other: Crouching tiger Hidden Dragon; House of Flying Daggers; Hero. all were fantastic. (I have a particular fondness for Jet Li, Chow Yun Fat and Michelle Yohe)
The one I was thinking of was a more silly fun thing where the wannabe hero is fed a bowl of rice a day and eventually learns to run on water. Oh, ack, it was Remo Williams! (I just googled martial arts film funny running on water) 
And different genres often have much in common! It seems to me that many Chinese martial arts films have the sort of mythology we see in LOTR, reality tweaked and pushed just a bit.
Na 'Aear, na 'Aear! Mýl 'lain nallol, I sûl ribiel a i falf 'loss reviol...
To the sea, to the sea, the white gulls are crying, the wind is blowing and the white foam is flying...
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