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*** 'The Fellowship of the Ring' ch. 10A, 'Strider' - Characters

arithmancer
Grey Havens


Feb 18 2015, 1:33am

Post #1 of 6 (1117 views)
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*** 'The Fellowship of the Ring' ch. 10A, 'Strider' - Characters Can't Post

This is post two of a planned three regarding this chapter. In this I offer some questions about the other characters.

(*) Frodo and Sam briefly discuss Strider's offer to lead them from Bree "by paths that are seldom trodden". Sam interjects with his own view,"...it's no reason why we should let him go leading us out into some dark place far from help, as he puts it." What does this moment tell us about Sam?

(*) Pippin, hearing Sam in this moment, fidgeted and looked uncomfortable. Why do you think, is he agreeing with Sam but more polite about expressing it? Does he have Frodo's sense of the man but hesitates to speak up?

(*) Frodo senses there is more to Strider than Strider allows to show in his appearance and demeanor. He indicates he wanted to believe Strider was a friend even before proof turned up. Why?

(*) We learn Butterbur almost forgot Gandalf's letter entirely, and never mailed it. Did you find it believable? Or was this just a contrivance needed to give us the suspenseful flight from the Shire, with all its attendant adventures?

(*) Butterbur offers his own help to the Hobbits to make amends for his forgetting of the letter, and also because Gandalf asked him to. Why do you think Butterbur values his friendship with Gandalf?
He's a lot less enthusiastic about Strider, another Outsider.

(*) Sam continues to express doubts about Strider even after the revelation of the letter, going so far as to suggest "Strider" has killed the real Strider. Why do you think he has the most doubts?

(*) "Well, you want looking after and no mistake: your party might be on a holiday!" Do you agree with this assessment of Merry, who has remained abset throughout the events of the common-room and subsequent meeting with Strider?

(*) Strider speaks to the Hobbits of Gandalf, telling them he has hidden depths. "Gandalf is greater than you shire folk know - as a rule you can only see his jokes and toys." Have we/the Hobbits seen evidence of this to date, in the book?



Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 18 2015, 2:39am

Post #2 of 6 (1047 views)
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Character sketches [In reply to] Can't Post


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(*) Frodo and Sam briefly discuss Strider's offer to lead them from Bree "by paths that are seldom trodden". Sam interjects with his own view,"...it's no reason why we should let him go leading us out into some dark place far from help, as he puts it." What does this moment tell us about Sam? (*) Sam continues to express doubts about Strider even after the revelation of the letter, going so far as to suggest "Strider" has killed the real Strider. Why do you think he has the most doubts?

Interesting rejection, of paths seldom trodden: rather a literal portrayal of Sam as the insular everyman and also as Mr. Frodo's resident bulldog. It continues with his debating of the Strider question - showing a real strength though, to stand against such a tall and perhaps renegade Man.

(*) Pippin, hearing Sam in this moment, fidgeted and looked uncomfortable. Why do you think, is he agreeing with Sam but more polite about expressing it? Does he have Frodo's sense of the man but hesitates to speak up?
Pippin does seem to have a sense of Strider, as he allows that his rough look comes by honestly (which Strider also rather trumps Pip, yet again). Pippin shows an innate good judgment here, as rather childishly as he expresses it. I note the wisest of the four, Merry, is NOT present to first assess Strider! He is conveniently absent, and we must do with the three less-than-worldly Hobbits to create our reader reaction.


(*) Frodo senses there is more to Strider than Strider allows to show in his appearance and demeanor. He indicates he wanted to believe Strider was a friend even before proof turned up. Why?
He is looking for strength against the night: just as they hurried towards Bree seeking the same. That could have been his undoing, I suppose: but Strider is exactly who he says he is.

(*) We learn Butterbur almost forgot Gandalf's letter entirely, and never mailed it. Did you find it believable? Or was this just a contrivance needed to give us the suspenseful flight from the Shire, with all its attendant adventures?
Well, it works as a device...but with all the characterization of Butterbur, I do believe it.

(*) Butterbur offers his own help to the Hobbits to make amends for his forgetting of the letter, and also because Gandalf asked him to. Why do you think Butterbur values his friendship with Gandalf? He's a lot less enthusiastic about Strider, another Outsider.
Gandalf has that political wisdom to cultivate and put people at ease. He is the Kindler, after all, not the Heir. That is his chosen path, to walk Middle-earth and befriend and interact with all Good People. He has bits of information and insight tucked away everywhere, I think! Like the lumberyard he alludes to in his letter.


(*) "Well, you want looking after and no mistake: your party might be on a holiday!" Do you agree with this assessment of Merry, who has remained abset throughout the events of the common-room and subsequent meeting with Strider?
Well, as I said above, the missing Merry in that interchange is an important clue left indeterminate for us! He is the least absurd of anyone to date.

(*) Strider speaks to the Hobbits of Gandalf, telling them he has hidden depths. "Gandalf is greater than you shire folk know - as a rule you can only see his jokes and toys." Have we/the Hobbits seen evidence of this to date, in the book?
Yes, but Frodo is in a special position to know more about Gandalf, from Shadow of the Past. No toys or firecrackers there. Frodo has seen the deeper knowledge that Gandalf has, alone among Hobbits just about...because given TH, I'm not sure we can even include Bilbo in with those most in-the-know about Gandalf. So *we* know more about Gandalf than Hobbiton on the whole. We are in on the conspiracy, here.









Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea

Feb 20 2015, 12:27am

Post #3 of 6 (1013 views)
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Regarding Butterbur [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, I can certainly believe that Butterbur forgot about the letter to Frodo. Then remembered it later! Gandalf did sum it up nicely later in the Council of Elrond saying, 'Fat men who sell ale have many calls and the fear of Sauron is still not as much as some make it,,' or something like that. Speaking of Butterbur, he was someone who was rather shabbily treated by the movies, he was barely in but most of his lines cut, if they hadn't been I wonder how people imagine him saying some of his lines. Another point about Butterbur, I was going to point this out in the previous chapter, but never mind, is was he married? I would have thought that a landlord in his position would have had a Mrs Butterbur about the place as most inns of that type would have been run by couples even in Tolkien's time.


Kim
Valinor


Feb 20 2015, 5:40am

Post #4 of 6 (1031 views)
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Gandalf [In reply to] Can't Post

(*) Strider speaks to the Hobbits of Gandalf, telling them he has hidden depths. "Gandalf is greater than you shire folk know - as a rule you can only see his jokes and toys." Have we/the Hobbits seen evidence of this to date, in the book?
I think we got a glimpse of this in Chapter 2 when Gandalf goes in depth about the story of the ring, Gollum, and the wider world in general. It made the tone much more serious, and at least for Frodo and Sam, they started to get an idea of just how much more there was to him than fireworks.

#OneLastTime


Darkstone
Immortal


Feb 23 2015, 10:56pm

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"I suppose you're all wondering why I've gathered you here..." [In reply to] Can't Post

Nazgul 1: Why the heck did you take your shoes off?
Nazgul 2: Why the heck are you dressed like a chicken?
-Not Home Alone


(*) Frodo and Sam briefly discuss Strider's offer to lead them from Bree "by paths that are seldom trodden". Sam interjects with his own view,"...it's no reason why we should let him go leading us out into some dark place far from help, as he puts it." What does this moment tell us about Sam?

He’s the smartest of the bunch. Look what happened when Merry led them to the Old Forest, or Bombadil led them to the Downs. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me; fool me three times, run for Congress.


(*) Pippin, hearing Sam in this moment, fidgeted and looked uncomfortable. Why do you think, is he agreeing with Sam but more polite about expressing it?

I think Sam suddenly made Pippin realize how dangerous it would be to trust Strider.


Does he have Frodo's sense of the man but hesitates to speak up?

Hard to think of Pippin being reticent whether in front of Lords of Elves, Kings of Men, Uruk-hai of Isengard, or Ents of Fangorn.


(*) Frodo senses there is more to Strider than Strider allows to show in his appearance and demeanor. He indicates he wanted to believe Strider was a friend even before proof turned up. Why?

Stockholm Syndrome? Seems to be susceptible. Look how well he takes to Faramir.

Of course maybe he could sense the Blood of Numenor. In which case is Frodo a vampire? How would you kill a hobbit vampire anyway? With a wooden peg through its heart?


(*) We learn Butterbur almost forgot Gandalf's letter entirely, and never mailed it. Did you find it believable?

It’s happened to me, and with my own blamed letters!


Or was this just a contrivance needed to give us the suspenseful flight from the Shire, with all its attendant adventures?

That too.


(*) Butterbur offers his own help to the Hobbits to make amends for his forgetting of the letter, and also because Gandalf asked him to. Why do you think Butterbur values his friendship with Gandalf?

No doubt because Gandalf is a great entertainer in the common room: news, tales, songs, magic tricks, just an all-round attraction even by his appearance. Even after he’s gone people probably drop in and talk about his visit over a few ales. Wouldn’t be surprised if there was a room with the sign “Gandalf Slept Here”.


He's a lot less enthusiastic about Strider, another Outsider.

Strider seems taciturn, suspicious, and probably has left a few bodies lying around. Agents of the Enemy, of course. But still paying customers, so Butterbur naturally wouldn’t be too pleased.


(*) Sam continues to express doubts about Strider even after the revelation of the letter, going so far as to suggest "Strider" has killed the real Strider. Why do you think he has the most doubts?

Sam is pretty straightforward and all of Strider’s veiled hints that he knows this and thinks that without actually saying much no doubt has put his back up, especially since it’s reminiscent of Sandyman’s hints of murder on the Brandywine and whispers of hidden treasure up in Bag End. The fact that Strider is a Man-sized Ted Sandyman probably makes Sam even more hostile.


(*) "Well, you want looking after and no mistake: your party might be on a holiday!" Do you agree with this assessment of Merry, who has remained absent throughout the events of the common-room and subsequent meeting with Strider?

Plus the fact that they’ve forgotten about him. It's like Home Alone (1990), only they're not at home, and the ones who forgot Kevin didn't go anywhere, and Merry isn't named Kevin. Otherwise, exactly the same.

(Think Joe Pesci and Daniel Stern would make good Nazgul?)



(*) Strider speaks to the Hobbits of Gandalf, telling them he has hidden depths. "Gandalf is greater than you shire folk know - as a rule you can only see his jokes and toys." Have we/the Hobbits seen evidence of this to date, in the book?

If we’ve read of/they’ve listened to Bilbo’s adventures in The Hobbit, then sure!

******************************************
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a wonderful town!!!
Mount Doom blew up,
And the Black Tower's down!!
The orcs all fell in a hole in the ground!
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a heckuva town!!!

-Lord of the Rings: The Musical, music by Leonard Bernstein, lyrics by Betty Comden and Adolph Green


sador
Half-elven


Feb 25 2015, 9:54am

Post #6 of 6 (973 views)
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"I beg your pardon, Mr. All-knowing, but didn't you say four hobbits?" [In reply to] Can't Post

Sam interjects with his own view,"...it's no reason why we should let him go leading us out into some dark place far from help, as he puts it." What does this moment tell us about Sam?
Trying to turn Strider's own argument against him.
Could be a lawyer. Or a journalist.

Pippin, hearing Sam in this moment, fidgeted and looked uncomfortable. Why do you think, is he agreeing with Sam but more polite about expressing it? Does he have Frodo's sense of the man but hesitates to speak up?

Polite? Hesitating? We're talking about Pippin!

I would suppose he just needed to go to the bathroom. A common effect of having too much ale.

Frodo senses there is more to Strider than Strider allows to show in his appearance and demeanor. He indicates he wanted to believe Strider was a friend even before proof turned up. Why?

"A hunted man sometimes wearies of distrust and longs for friendship."
Frodo is hunted, and he is weary of needing to distrust everybody.

But we could also put it down to Gildor's blessing, a clairvoyance granted him by Elbereth's grace.

We learn Butterbur almost forgot Gandalf's letter entirely, and never mailed it. Did you find it believable?
Likely. So likely that Gandalf mentioned the possibilty in the letter itself.
But he was fool enough to expect a couple of empty threats would be guarantee the letter being sent.

Or was this just a contrivance needed to give us the suspenseful flight from the Shire, with all its attendant adventures?
As we saw in the previous chapter's discussion, originally Gandalf was supposed to be just slightly ahead of the hobbits. So this letter is in effect a contrivance to explain Gandalf's absence without sending a message.

Butterbur offers his own help to the Hobbits to make amends for his forgetting of the letter, and also because Gandalf asked him to. Why do you think Butterbur values his friendship with Gandalf?
I can't compete with Darkstone's answers to these two comments.

But anyone would value a friendship which keeps them unroasted.

He's a lot less enthusiastic about Strider, another Outsider.
See above.

And a fellow who climbs the gate to avoid paying the toll, would also drink your beer and smoke your pipeweed without compensating you.

I can also guess that Butterbur has heard for a long time that the Rangers were the folks who kept Bree from harm. Being a cautious man he paid up, but probably didn't quite believe it was true.

Sam continues to express doubts about Strider even after the revelation of the letter, going so far as to suggest "Strider" has killed the real Strider. Why do you think he has the most doubts?
Who cares about the facts? I know what's right!

As I said above, Sam should be a political journalist.

"Well, you want looking after and no mistake: your party might be on a holiday!" Do you agree with this assessment of Merry, who has remained abset throughout the events of the common-room and subsequent meeting with Strider?
I really love this snetence. Honestly.

Butterbur is abused so much by Strider (and will be in the Council of Elrond, too), that I am delighted by this little triumph. Neither Strider nor Frodo ever realised that a member of the company was missing!

Small wonder that Merry feels later (The Ride of the Rohirrim) neglected and unimportant. He probably thinks that if Pippin wasn't with him, Aragorn would happily go on to Minas Tirith.

Strider speaks to the Hobbits of Gandalf, telling them he has hidden depths. "Gandalf is greater than you shire folk know - as a rule you can only see his jokes and toys." Have we/the Hobbits seen evidence of this to date, in the book?
Frodo was hoping he would turn Sam into a toad.
And we readers? We saw him threaten Bilbo... but that's about all. And even in The Hobbit we can't claim to have seen him as one of the Great and Wise.


 
 

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