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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
The King Under the Mountain and The Seven Houses of the Dwarves
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chauvelin2000
Bree

Feb 16 2015, 11:46pm

Post #26 of 43 (1287 views)
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The Woodland queen would yet have been alive at the time of commission ... [In reply to] Can't Post

as per Boyens' podcast ... hence the poignancy of the treasure's meaning upon her death. Thranduil's silence and long-time reticence to retrieve the Jeweled necklace, laying claim at last to a very emotionally symbolic 'heirloom' of his royal House, given such a scenario, is entirely comprehensible.

The commission of the Jewelry itself may even have been long before the time (TA 1300 or earlier?) that Angmar invaded Arnor, destroying Amon Sûl (TA 1409). Thus, perhaps even 1,500 years or more before the time of the events in THE HOBBIT. The aging of an Elf of course is an exponentially 'slower' process than for even a Dúnedain ranger, in the passage of Time (not surprising, really, when we understand that, naturally, Elvenkind are 'given' an inherent capacity to live for the duration of Arda itself); as such, many hundreds of years may have passed since the moment of Elvish birth, yet a contemporary should not be so surprised that an Elvish prince, for example, appears to be but a small lad.

Given what appears to be the intent, through interviews and podcasts with the screenwriters, the Dwarvenkings with whom Thranduil and his queen must have actually dealt would then indeed be 'Thrór's forebears' — almost certainly the lords of Moria. But this also means that what appears to have been the intended story of the film's creators does not in fact mesh with, by editorial expediency, what ends up in the Visual Companion.

This admission, as might be guessed, references the Dwarvish 'commission-ee' actually having been Thrór (rather than the forefathers of his royal line), as is offered by the Visual Companion . . .

The efforts necessary for the screenwriters to make what in my opinion is a great 'in the spirit of Tolkien' story-line actually mesh with Tolkien's complicated secondary world timelines (and within the limited printed framework of a visual companion meant for a global audience) is, to say the least, a very difficult, even daunting, task.

Like the economy of their filmic storytelling, however, the information provided by the 'visual companion' surely is based, as from an editorial standpoint it must be, on concise or abbreviated or consolidated vignettes or 'tales' in order to make 'the whole tale' intelligible, at a basic level, to the general reader.

Jackson, Walsh, Boyens are, we may be sure, all too aware themselves of Tolkien's mythological timescales and what they, as screenwriters, could or could not include, to enable the average film-goer or companion-reader to lucidly 'follow' and understand the overall story that they wished to tell.

And it's indeed painful to see what we all recognize to be ideas with wonderful canonical 'pedigrees' (Michelle mentions the Necklace of Girion) go unanswered in the film (and I'm positive the film-writers felt those same unrequited frustrations in not being able to actualize all of them fully, or perhaps in the ways they wished they might have). Theirs was a balancing act for the kind of success dictated by the realities of their artistic medium that the rest of us can only guess at.

But their many masterful strokes and thrilling 'nods' to many of those ideas, clearly recognizable in so many of the film's scenes and images, as well as in such physical articles as the Lasgalen necklace, go a long way to satisfying even some of the most ardent 'purists' (because we can, at least, feel their intent and see the symbolism and the multiplicity of things they are trying to get across in a single phrase or scene or image).

But because that is, frankly, an impossible task at the end of the day, they are, I feel, forced to compensate by abbreviating or 'truncating' or streamlining certain tales, or placing some of these very good ideas (grand even, or some of their very best perhaps) within the covers of a 'visual companion' piece, where some of the most salient, even cherished 'unused' material can find a voice and an audience (in many ways much like the Extended Editions of the films themselves operate). You can feel this particularly in the comments of the veritable host of visual artists, many of them ardent Tolkien fans, who have labored years to 'translate Tolkien' to the screen.
-----------------------------------


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Feb 17 2015, 12:14am

Post #27 of 43 (1277 views)
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A wonderful and gracious reply. [In reply to] Can't Post

I accept entirely your arguments about the difficulties that face the screen writers who for a global audience need to truncate timelines and leave matters out.

However art is about communication and including your audience and I cannot help but think that a more dynamic and focused presentation of Thranduil's backstory and motivation could have been provided.

Thranduil's isolationism to the global audience can be explained by two relatively recent invents the loss of his wife which occurred "Outside" of the realm and the poor faith shown by Thror. The long standing enmity which you and i are aware of the losses he suffered in the 2nd age can simply be alluded to one doesn't need and cannot talk about The Nauglamir for instance.

I think a very simple solution could have been to give Thranduils wife the Tale of Celebrian where she is violated on a journey at the hands of Orcs and losses the will to remain and that this occurs after the commissioning and refusal of Thror and adds to Thranduil's cycle of grief.
Less geo political more personal and what if it turned out that right at the end Thranduil discovers the Orc Band was lead by Bolg connecting up story lines and "messages" which Tolkien did when he kept recasting the Silmarillion in a more and adult and personal mode.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.


chauvelin2000
Bree

Feb 17 2015, 12:33am

Post #28 of 43 (1255 views)
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Great thoughts ... and an excellent idea for the Celebrían story! [In reply to] Can't Post

 ... and exactly the kind of 'consolidation' the screenwriters have felt the need to do in the past. And since it was their decision to pursue these 'sideline' threads of the 'greater legendarium' in order to make the whole feel more mythically rich, and of the same 'tonal backcloth' as their Rings trilogy, such an inclusion would indeed have added subtextual layers to understanding Thranduil's backstory. But I await in anticipation, with baited breath, hoping to see a little bit more in the EE . . . don't know if I should hold my breath though. They should have had Michelle aboard their writing barge! Cool ... that's a great idea.
------------------------------------


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Feb 17 2015, 3:55am

Post #29 of 43 (1234 views)
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Thank you for your endorsement [In reply to] Can't Post

and if that is the kind of participation you want on this series of threads (positive criticism where suggestions are made rather than merely negative criticism I will willing take part).

I have spent half a lifetime studying the evolution of the Silmarillion. The most important change that occurred in its most interesting phase between 1952 and 1960 is how Tolkien re imagined rather antiquated or strongly "fairy story" elements and gave them a more personal intimate feel but retaining the sense of a vanished past where the gods were closer in.

In the movies the very best examples of that methodology are Gandalf and Galadriel and Gandalf Thrain where this shrouded before world being is dealing intimately with mythical concepts. But that is to look forward to your later subject matter.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.


dormouse
Half-elven


Feb 17 2015, 9:23am

Post #30 of 43 (1214 views)
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Thank you for this and well said... [In reply to] Can't Post

You've voiced ideas I've been reaching towards and your respect for Peter Jackson and the people who work for and with him, and for the films, from the point of view of someone who obviously studies and loves Tolkien's books, is refreshing and a joy to read.

This expresses perfectly why I love these films so much:


Quote
But their many masterful strokes and thrilling 'nods' to many of those ideas, clearly recognizable in so many of the film's scenes and images, as well as in such physical articles as the Lasgalen necklace, go a long way to satisfying even some of the most ardent 'purists' (because we can, at least, feel their intent and see the symbolism and the multiplicity of things they are trying to get across in a single phrase or scene or image).

But because that is, frankly, an impossible task at the end of the day, they are, I feel, forced to compensate by abbreviating or 'truncating' or streamlining certain tales, or placing some of these very good ideas (grand even, or some of their very best perhaps) within the covers of a 'visual companion' piece, where some of the most salient, even cherished 'unused' material can find a voice and an audience (in many ways much like the Extended Editions of the films themselves operate). You can feel this particularly in the comments of the veritable host of visual artists, many of them ardent Tolkien fans, who have labored years to 'translate Tolkien' to the screen.



(This post was edited by dormouse on Feb 17 2015, 9:26am)


Arannir
Valinor


Feb 17 2015, 9:38am

Post #31 of 43 (1203 views)
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Agreed. [In reply to] Can't Post

First of all, thanks to chauvelin2000 for this great thread that offers so many chances and opportunities for discussion.

I agree with Michelle on this one. I admire the will of the screenwriters to bring in and condense several ideas and plotlines that originally come from Tolkien or are nods to his writings.

I have no issue with changing the canon, as a matter of fact I also had hoped to see Celebrian's story to inform either Thranduil's wife's story or - I might have liked that even better - Tauriel's story (especially the resolution of her plotline).

I know that not everything can be told in a 2.5 hour movie (or even three of them). But reading Michelle's post once again reaffirmed my belief that - I must quote her here because I cannot say it better - "[..] a more dynamic and focused presentation of Thranduil's backstory and motivation could have been provided."


I am looking forward to more of these threads, chauvelin2000. It is a joy to read.



"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



Riven Delve
Tol Eressea


Feb 17 2015, 4:36pm

Post #32 of 43 (1178 views)
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Thank you for these wonderful ideas to think about and discuss [In reply to] Can't Post



In Reply To
The efforts necessary for the screenwriters to make what in my opinion is a great 'in the spirit of Tolkien' story-line actually mesh with Tolkien's complicated secondary world timelines (and within the limited printed framework of a visual companion meant for a global audience) is, to say the least, a very difficult, even daunting, task.

Like the economy of their filmic storytelling, however, the information provided by the 'visual companion' surely is based, as from an editorial standpoint it must be, on concise or abbreviated or consolidated vignettes or 'tales' in order to make 'the whole tale' intelligible, at a basic level, to the general reader.

Jackson, Walsh, Boyens are, we may be sure, all too aware themselves of Tolkien's mythological timescales and what they, as screenwriters, could or could not include, to enable the average film-goer or companion-reader to lucidly 'follow' and understand the overall story that they wished to tell.

And it's indeed painful to see what we all recognize to be ideas with wonderful canonical 'pedigrees' (Michelle mentions the Necklace of Girion) go unanswered in the film (and I'm positive the film-writers felt those same unrequited frustrations in not being able to actualize all of them fully, or perhaps in the ways they wished they might have). Theirs was a balancing act for the kind of success dictated by the realities of their artistic medium that the rest of us can only guess at.

But their many masterful strokes and thrilling 'nods' to many of those ideas, clearly recognizable in so many of the film's scenes and images, as well as in such physical articles as the Lasgalen necklace, go a long way to satisfying even some of the most ardent 'purists' (because we can, at least, feel their intent and see the symbolism and the multiplicity of things they are trying to get across in a single phrase or scene or image).

But because that is, frankly, an impossible task at the end of the day, they are, I feel, forced to compensate by abbreviating or 'truncating' or streamlining certain tales, or placing some of these very good ideas (grand even, or some of their very best perhaps) within the covers of a 'visual companion' piece, where some of the most salient, even cherished 'unused' material can find a voice and an audience (in many ways much like the Extended Editions of the films themselves operate). You can feel this particularly in the comments of the veritable host of visual artists, many of them ardent Tolkien fans, who have labored years to 'translate Tolkien' to the screen.




I have found myself very frustrated especially in BotFA by the extra information we are given outside the film, from the writers' and actors' interviews, from the visual companion, and even the Chronicles books. As others have mentioned, most weight IMO should be given to what we know from the film itself--but that is often precious little and sometimes not enough for coherence for certain scenes (White Council's clearing of Dol Guldur) or subplots (i.e., the Arkenstone). If there is a problem with the Hobbit films, as far as I can gather, it is not and has never been "How can three films be squeezed out of one little book?" but rather "How can Jackson possibly fit in everything into three films from the Tolkien legendarium that comes to bear on the Hobbit book?"


Yet it is the masterful strokes and nods that reconcile (and sometimes thrill) me so that even though the canonical ideas--such as the practical history of the necklace which to me is so clearly a nod to the Nauglamir--sometimes sadly fall by the wayside (unless the EE can redeem them miraculously Wink), I can still appreciate and even rejoice in the things done well.


“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”



chauvelin2000
Bree

Feb 18 2015, 1:24am

Post #33 of 43 (1145 views)
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Thanks for your comments and insights! [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you, Arranir, Avandel, BlackFox, Bombadil, dormouse, entmaiden, Glorfindela, Konrad S, Michelle Johnston, Otaku-sempai, Pandallo, Riven Delve, and Voronwë the Faithful !

All of your kind comments are greatly appreciated. I've very much enjoyed your thoughts and observations. Thanks!! :)


Kirly
Lorien


Feb 19 2015, 2:39am

Post #34 of 43 (1124 views)
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You are not alone! [In reply to] Can't Post

I am thoroughly enjoying thus thread and marveling at all the knowledge. And the lovely civility. Smile

My avatar photo is Lake Tekapo in New Zealand's South Island. Taken by me in 2004 on a Red Carpet Tours LOTR Movie Location Tour. 'Twas the Vacation of a Lifetime!

pictures taken while on the tour are here:
https://picasaweb.google.com/Kirly7/LOTRNewZealandTour#


chauvelin2000
Bree

Feb 22 2015, 7:31pm

Post #35 of 43 (1080 views)
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Ancient wanderings of Durin 'the Deathless' and his 'Longbeard' folk from Gundabad . . . [In reply to] Can't Post

I think I understand the earlier confusion with regard to what remains a common understanding of the Longbeards and their 'ancestral home' of Moria. Most recognize what have become the simple, 'compartmentalized' Dwarf-population groupings of Middle-earth's major Dwarven houses: that is, 'where on the map' Tolkien generally places each of the major Dwarf-kingdoms for lucidity, ease of presentation, but also a basic cultural identification and understanding for the general reader as to each group's racial-historical moorings, or the 'geographical' loci of what are commonly viewed as the 'original' Dwarven homelands.
R
But the legacy of Tolkien's writings demonstrate that the Oxford don never intended the things of his sub-created, populated worlds ever to be quite as simple as they may at first appear on the surface. His Dwarves, in fact, inter-mixed and together wandered in their earliest histories, before Durin returned to Gundabad from his long wanderings in the Misty Mountains to the south. But more than this, many of these descendants of 'the Fathers' of the other Dwarven Houses, later joined with Durin to collectively become his 'people' at Khazad-dûm, the Moria-halls that Tolkien himself records became the Longbeards' 'later mansions' — meaning of course that there also had been for the disparate 'folk' counted among Moria's 'Longbeard-dwarves' other, earlier 'mansions' . . .

Early Awakenings . . .

Aulë the Smith was the impatient Vala who couldn’t wait for the Children of Ilúvatar to awaken. Aulë’s children, the first Dwarves, experienced a brief period of awareness before Ilúvatar and Aulë put them to sleep. Aulë then placed them in separate, widely dispersed stone caverns throughout the north of Middle-earth. There they slept until sometime after the awakening of the Elves, when they too awoke and ventured forth into the wide world. Since the Elves did not encounter any Dwarves on their Great Journey towards Beleriand and the Undying Lands of the West, it's almost certain that the Dwarves were still asleep. The Eldar passed through at least two mountain ranges where Dwarves had been placed and left by Aulë . . .

Tolkien scholar Michael Martinez suggests that the Dwarves, as a race, awoke before the Great Journey and that they began seeking each other (see below) before the War of the Powers. 'That would remove them from harm’s way and places their [general] awakening at the latest in Valian Year 1090 (the year the Valar began their assault on Melkor). In fact, it may be convenient to suppose the Dwarves awoke during the war. Therefore they would have gone unnoticed by the Valar, who had already discovered the Quendi [Elves] . . . Durin woke alone at Mount Gundabad ... and the fathers of the Ironfists and Stiffbeards awoke as far east of the Iron Hills as Gundabad was east of the northern Ered Luin, and the fathers of the Blacklocks and Stonefoots awoke at least as far east of the Ironfists and Stiffbeards as they were of Durin. It is difficult to imagine where these [eastern] Dwarves were placed, but [it may be inferred that it was in] two ranges of mountains which Tolkien did not draw on the maps ... [inclusive of] the Orocarni, the Mountains of the East [-- mountains] which Melkor supposedly raised to bar Oromë’s path as he hunted the Dark Lord’s evil creatures in Middle-earth...' Michael Martinez, 'Middle-earth & J.R.R. Tolkien Blog', 17-19 August 2011.

Tolkien even suggests that the four eastern Dwarf-kindreds (or at least the two easternmost) may have become 'evil' in some fashion, but they did not support Sauron at the end of the Second Age. And Martinez postulates that if dragons began afflicting the four eastern houses of the Dwarves just as the drakes had the Dwarves' western houses, within the next couple of centuries all the great eastern Dwarf-realms would have suffered a fate similar to that of Erebor — which would certainly explain the obscure references in THE HOBBIT and LOTR to the misfortunes of the Dwarves, especially where dragons were concerned. All of which would provide, of course, the ideal moment for Sauron to seize the other two remaining Dwarven Rings of Power, which he did (as explained by Gandalf to The White Council in Peter Jackson's film, EE).

The Dwarves, who first appeared in Beleriand in Valian Year 1250 (about 250 Valian Years before the deaths of the Two Trees, and 200 Valian Years after the Elves awoke at Cuiviénen; see HME X, 'Annals of Aman') have, as noted above, more ancient dwellings in the far east than Nogrod and Belegost, the cities they construct in the Ered Luin (see HME XI, 'Grey Annals'). And the Broadbeams and Firebeards awoke, it seems, in the northern Ered Luin (see HME XII, 'Of Dwarves and Men', written about the same time as LOTR).

Dwarves seeking Dwarves . . .

Even so, we are able to reconcile these apparent contradictions of locale in Dwarvish awakenings and wanderings, Martinez says, by suggesting that the Dwarves, when they awoke, may have wandered the world seeking one another: because wherever they awoke, 'if the Dwarves at first sought for each other, the tradition that they held conclaves at Gundabad begins to make better sense...' (Martinez, 2011).

Durin woke alone and apparently wandered through the Misty Mountains for many, many years. He eventually wandered back into the north to find what appears to be only a remnant of his people — due to the intervening years, those he found there lingering, or so it is suggested, could not have constituted all of his people. Many surely had wandered west with other Dwarvenkind (who, as suggested by Martinez, also had gone seeking) to find place with the other houses — i.e., Durin's Longbeards, with other dwarves, found place among the Ered Luin houses of the Broadbeams and Firebeards. Christopher Tolkien, after all, refers to 'the kin of the Longbeards … and their renowned later 'mansions' in Khazad-dûm (Moria)' and maintains further that while generally speaking the Dwarves of Moria were intended by his father to be Longbeards, albeit a great band that had intermixed with other Dwarven kindreds, Tolkien 'never changed' his texts of 'the Silmarillion' or the Annals, 'and the Longbeards remained the Dwarves of Belegost...' HME XI, p. 208n, and HME XII, p. 321n].

Gundabad may therefore be the oldest Dwarf city in Middle-earth, and the true original homeland of 'the Longbeards', as Durin's Folk generally came to be known. As the other Dwarven populations grew they eventually returned to their homelands to build new cities. 'Durin would have stayed in the central lands where he awoke,' says Martinez, 'but in time he led some Dwarves south to found the city of Khazad-dûm...' (Martinez, 2011). It is not inconsistent to suppose, therefore, that if Durin led but a remnant of his people south, others of the Longbeards, before his return to the north, probably had 'wandered' west, seeking others of their kind in the mountains of the Ered Luin, where they became known as 'Indrafangs'.

'Durin’s Folk, the Longbeards, were not directly descended from him — not in the first generations,'
observes Martinez, which of course adds further weight to the idea that the early Dwarves who came to be known as 'Longbeards' had wandered west with the members of other Dwarven families, where we find them in the First Age. Unlike the other Fathers, Durin did not have a mate made by Aulë. So, according to Tolkien, he had to find a wife from among the children or grand-children of the other Fathers. Moreover, Durin's people were originally recruited from the other houses as well — meaning that his 'Longbeard' house actually consisted of a mix of Dwarven families (Tolkien states that Durin's Folk 'were Dwarves that joined him from other kindreds east and west...' HME XII, p. 322n).

Gundabad was probably not a home to the Dwarves for very long. Instead, Durin relatively soon perhaps brought his folk south to Khazad-dûm, there to establish the main house of Longbeard-dwarves. And although he was called 'the Deathless' because he long outlived the other Fathers of the Dwarves, the day did come when he died.

Indeed, it may be that the critical event which led to the greater dispersion of the Dwarves across Middle-earth was the death of Durin: 'If he had been the glue holding them together in a united tradition [at Khazad-dûm], and if their increasing numbers had gradually strained their ability to support themselves, then Durin’s successor and his fellow kings may have decided that the time was ripe for a change in Dwarven society. Instead of all Dwarves living together, the six other houses [finally] departed from Khazad-dûm and returned to the lands where their forefathers awoke...' (Martinez, 2011) with the Longbeard-dwarves, under Thorin Oakenshield, also eventually returning to those same mountain-lands to which they'd anciently wandered from Gundabad, and from which they migrated to Moria with remnants of the other houses to 'swell its numbers' early in the Second Age... (LOTR, Appendix B 'The Tale of Years', p. 1083).
------------------------------------------


(This post was edited by entmaiden on Feb 22 2015, 10:59pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Feb 22 2015, 9:25pm

Post #36 of 43 (1061 views)
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Disposition of the Dwarven Houses [In reply to] Can't Post

I actually find it a little disappointing if the Longbeards remain the founders of Belgost. I think that it makes for a better story if it were the Broadbeams. Does this mean that the Broadbeams and Firebeards both co-founded Nogrod? That would make Bifur, Bofur and Bombur at least peripherally associated (through descent) with the theft of the Nauglamir, the murder of Thingol and the sack of Doriath.

As for the original homes of the four Eastern Houses of the Dwarves: If we can use Tolkien's map of Arda from HOME IV, The Shaping of Middlle-earth, as interpreted by Karen Fonstad in The Atlas of Middle-earth then I would hazard that the Ironfists and Stiffbeards awoke in the eastern-most part of the Ered Engrin (Iron Mountains) while the Blacklocks and Stonefoots were originally from the southern region of the Orocarni (Mountains of the East). After the Great Battle at the end of the First Age, the central portion of the Ered Engrin fell, leaving the western range to be renamed the Ered Mithrin (Grey Mountains).

Does this seem about right? Or at least plausable?

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


chauvelin2000
Bree

Feb 22 2015, 11:30pm

Post #37 of 43 (1050 views)
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The Dwarves' western and eastern Houses . . . [In reply to] Can't Post

Excellent observations, Otaku-sempai, about the placing of the four eastern houses of the Dwarves where you do. Fonstad's is a superb resource.

I've always thought, too, that the Blacklocks and Stonefoots (the two possibly 'evil' Dwarven houses of the east — each, then, with highly appropriate names, if this be the case) awoke in, as you say, 'the southern region' of the Orocarni.

I also am intrigued by your situating the Ironfists and Stiffbeards in the cold, 'iron' North — perfectly apropos to their names — in the Ered Engrin, before its central portion fell after Thangorodrim's breaking, which thereafter bequeathed to wicked wyrms and wandering Dwarves its 'western' Ered Mithrin range. Excellent conclusions —

I don't believe necessarily that the Longbeards, however, were the actual founders of Belegost, but rather that — having wandered from Gundabad in the east — were 'given place' among the Broadbeams, who were, in my view, the original founders. But because of the general 'cosmopolitan' charisma, formidable talents, and unassailable leadership that the Longbeards generally possessed, according to Tolkien, they rose to become Belegost's dominant force and powera generally more positive and good one than perhaps were other Dwarvish strains or breeds.

'Though the proudest of the seven kindreds', Tolkien states, the Longbeards 'were also the wisest and the most farseeing ... Men held them in awe and were eager to learn from them; and the Longbeards were very willing to use Men [and Elves] for their own purposes...' (HME XII, 'Of Dwarves and Men'; 'cosmopolitan' is Martinez's word).

Tolkien's intent, on the other hand, was to associate Nogrod with the Firebeards. Collectively, the Ered Luin dwarves were called the 'Nauglath' (a general term for 'Dwarves' > Naugrim). The Nauglath of Nogrod, therefore, were almost certainly the 'Firebeards'.

I wouldn't be too concerned, however, about connecting morally (marking as guilty by association) Bifur, Bofur and Bombur with their possibly less-than-savory forefathers, for as I mentioned in my earlier post 'Tolkien and the ability of individuals — and races — to change', their characters are not those of their forebears (if we can even fully believe the histories, tainted as these are by a negative Elven bias).

Who knows, alternatively, but that the endearing threesome of Thorin's company arise not from the Firebeards, but from the Broadbeams? This seems, rather, to make more sense anyway, if for no other rationale than proximity's sake, being that they were fellow-denizens with the ruling Longbeards of the Belegost region.
----------------------------------------------


(This post was edited by chauvelin2000 on Feb 22 2015, 11:37pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Feb 23 2015, 12:28am

Post #38 of 43 (1036 views)
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Bifur, Bofur and Bombur [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes. I personally associate Bofur and his two kinsmen with the Broadbeams. In fact, I am working on my own home-made adventure for The One Ring Roleplaying Game that has Bifur and Bofur recruiting an adventuring company to explore the abandoned Dwarf-mines used by King Arvendui before he and his followers drowned at Forochel. It appears that the land above Nogrod and Belegost subsided at some point during the Second Age, burying the ancient halls and leaving valleys and mountain passes where the cities used to be (in fact, the map inserts in The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion seem to indicate exactly that). If the mines have survived then there could be an underground passage that leads to chambers in Belegost that still stand, such as a vault where is stored Nimphelos, the great pearl that was gifted to the Dwarves of Belegost by Thingol Greycloak for the delving of Menegroth.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


chauvelin2000
Bree

Feb 23 2015, 1:03am

Post #39 of 43 (1032 views)
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Momentary (off-topic) digression . . . [In reply to] Can't Post

Awesome!! ... I LOVE the Forochel story! Cool ... one of Tolkien's more intriguing side-tales ... Sounds like an amazing role-playing game setup. And I love your arresting inclusion of Thingol's enchanting Nimphelos pearl! ... Stuff like that reminds me of 'National Treasure' or 'DaVinci Code' — only tons better because ... it's TOLKIEN! Sly
------------------------------------------


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Feb 23 2015, 1:28am

Post #40 of 43 (1041 views)
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Thanks. [In reply to] Can't Post

Assuming I finish the adventure, I will probably post the results at Cubicle 7's TOR forums. Now if I only had local players so I can Loremaster the game!

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Feb 23 2015, 6:54am

Post #41 of 43 (1023 views)
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Gunderbad maybe the oldest Dwarven City of ME [In reply to] Can't Post

As I read your additional contributions on this matter it struck me that in the same way Dol Gulder was presented as a corrupted Numenorean Citadel, it is a shame that Alan and John didn't go inside Gunderbad and offer us their vision of the corrupted eldest Dwarven City and the discretion of a site which would have included wonderful echoes and images of Durin the Deathless a character from the appendices family in the LOTR so legitimate material.

On the whole I think its that kind of depth which would have aided the journey toward making the Hobbit more grave and epic without of course corrupting the basic story as that is where Bolg came from. I also think there was an opportunity to juxtapose Gunderbad with its forges and armies of orcs and wargs with the more mysterious and ethereal home of wraiths and a corrupted Maiar with its pits and dungeons full of illusions and deceits.

In story telling terms my preference would have been to reserve Dol Gulder for the deeply mythical and symbolical magical mode of story telling in which Thrain offers the mediation experience and where Beorn and Radagast play out there arcs and separate that from the building of an army of brutality at Gunderbad and making the link through the Palantir which according to the chronicles was in early versions of the 2nd film.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.


chauvelin2000
Bree

Feb 23 2015, 9:35am

Post #42 of 43 (1021 views)
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Natal-shrines, Wraithworlds, Palantírs ... Oh, my!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Fascinating idea, Michelle ... to enter in where devils fear to tread: we need to have an Extended Version to the Extended Versions!! Cool ... For I would LOVE to see the site (albeit utterly desecrated) of the Awakening of Durin the Deathless!! ... K, now, let's all say it together (you know you want to): ... Cinematic Gravitas! — and this, in conjunction with a sort of flip-of-the-coin 'image of Light' presentation juxtaposing the real-world Rivendell / ethereal Lórien of LOTR with an 'image of Darkness'-twin juxtaposing the real-world Gundabad / but with the Necromantic wraith-world of Dol Guldur (wicked-Men, evil-Maiar, and illusive Snakes!) of THE HOBBIT ... that'd be Very Cool — love it.

And I do appreciate your Palantír-connection suggestion ... For, it would have been nice to see what truly was meant for the infamous 'statue-holding-orb' scene (There has to be something more behind it — in that scene's filmic development). For, being that the fortress at Amon Lanc 'Naked Hill' (renamed Dol Guldur after The Necromancer's occupation) was once the fortified capital of the Second-Age Silvan kingdom ruled by Oropher — Thranduil's father and Legolas' grandfather — could it be that the statue we see in the film is an image of that ancient Elvenking, now defiled (like the image of the Gondorian king at The Crossroads in LOTR) by Orcish mischief, save for the Palantír he holds? ... What on Ilúvatar's green great earth were they thinking not to give us moooorrreee!?! Tongue

Perhaps we'll be delightfully surprised by more of the mystical-mythical than we of right dare hope for ... which the screenwriters (maybe) have hidden up their sleeves. I do know we'll get just a bit of that with the 'Gandalf Vision'-sequence we've all heard tell of.Heart Angelic Heart

And I agree wholeheartedly with you, Michelle, that we do need some semblance of 'closure' with the Beorn / Radagast threads ... Unsure
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(This post was edited by chauvelin2000 on Feb 23 2015, 9:39am)


chauvelin2000
Bree

Feb 28 2015, 1:23pm

Post #43 of 43 (994 views)
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Gundabad and the Rings of Power . . . [In reply to] Can't Post

Gundabad ... Gundabadthat great former capital city and stronghold of Durin's Folk and the sacred site of their ancient Father's awakening, now defiled by Azog and the minions of 'the One' … As we're on the topic anyway, as it meshes with Peter Jackson's films (of both trilogies), I agree with Michelle, that it most certainly is a most arresting thought — to be able to follow John and Alan's pens (pencils, whatever), as these might have been translated to the screen, into the site of the Longbeard-dwarves' natal arising!

Its promise is akin, of course, to the awe one feels as we gaze with Aragorn (or Bilbo) upon the 'Shards of Narsil' at Rivendell, or the mighty Argonath-sentinels at the Falls of Rauros, or even (catching our breath) deep within the legendary, cavernous Woodland halls of Thranduil the Elvenking, or as we catch terrifying glimpses of that much-rumored lair of the Necromancer himself in southern Mirkwood.

We are captivated by the thought that we are actually 'witnessing' by magical filmic visualizations the artifacts and sites and ancient images of fantastic mythical lore, compliments of the genre's grand Masters (of both book and film).

Hence, we once marveled in rapt wonder (as perhaps we still do) as those gravely spoken words first fell from Galadriel's lips, speaking to us from out of the darkness: I amar prestar aenHan mathon ne nenHan mathon ne chaeA han noston ned gwilith

The world is changedI feel it in the waterI feel it in the EarthI smell it in the airMuch that once was is lostfor none now live who remember it



It began with the forging of the great rings ... Three were given to the Elves, immortal, wisest and fairest of all beings. Seven to the Dwarf-lords, great miners and craftsmen of the mountain-halls. And nine — Nine rings were gifted to the race of Men, who above all else, desire power.

For within these rings was bound the strength and will to govern each race
... but they were all of them deceivedfor another ring was made:

In the land of Mordor, in the fires of Mount Doom, the Dark Lord Sauron forged in secret a master ring, to control all others. And into this Ring, he poured his cruelty, his malice, and his will to dominate all life
... One Ring to rule them all.

One by one, the free lands of Middle-Earth fell to the power of the Ring. But there were some who resisted
... A last alliance of Men and Elves




But … what about … the Dwarves? Certainly they 'resisted' also, for by nature this was their special gift: to resist ... Surely the Khazad participated
in that Last Alliance against the Dark Lord Sauron and his foul hosts in SA 3434 [to 3441], at the end of the Second Age, didn't they?

One thing we know we all witnessed in P.J.'s first Middle-earth film is the arresting image of Seven great Dwarf-lords in secret conclave holding aloft their mighty Rings of Power … And it seems that P.J. & Co., now, with their HOBBIT Trilogy of films, have given us our first chance to ponder and think upon that striking scene placed strategically at the start of their first cinematic foray into Middle-earth. For where, in light of what we now know of Jacksonian film-verse, do we suppose that scene to have taken place?

We know from Tolkien's writings that the kindreds of the Seven Houses, despite great separating distances, 'were in communication, and in the early ages often held assemblies of delegates at Mount Gundabad. In times of great need even the most distant would send help to any of their people; as was the case in the great War against the Orks [sic]...' (HME XII, pp. 301, 323n) — which of course means that when the Dwarves filtered back into Eriador from the west after the War of Wrath of the Valar-gods and the Beleriandic cataclysms that ended the First Age, some of the Dwarves, it is certain, returned (apart from those of Nogrod and Belegost who 'enriched' Moria with the strength of their numbers, and with 'much lore and craft') to the site of their primeval natality — that is, we envision at this juncture in Ardaic time a pilgrimage of the Khazad to their primordial beginnings, where their Father Durin 'the Deathless' first awoke under the watchful eye of Aulë and of Ilúvatar the All-father. We probably see, at the very least, in this resettling of Gundabad, the two rival mountain-kings and some portion of their peoples: of Nogrod (the Firebeards) and the Broadbeams of Belegost — being that others of their folk followed the ruling Belegostian Longbeards to 'swell' the ranks of Khazad-dûm, and even, it's certain, remained behind in the Ered Luin (as Tolkien did confirm that the Dwarves continued to live in the Blue Mountains throughout the Second and Third Ages).

Gundabad, as it turns out, was not always 'bad' … Indeed, it was at this ancient cultural center that the Dwarves would, in the future, collectively consider their greatest matters — all of the events and prospects, the plannings and strategies of highest import. All of this, of course, taking place when Gundabad was still under Dwarven control — before the strife and war with vile orcish invaders under the command of the Great Orc Azog, which took place sometime after Sauron's Second-Age fall, after the Dark Lord's reappearance in the Third Age, and surely just as the strength of the Nazgûl in the North was gathering power and force among evil Men, Orcs, and other creatures, to establish Angmar's realm there. Hence, the great probability that, throughout the First and Second Ages, these Dwarvish delegations gathered at Gundabad (perhaps with greater frequency than Tolkien himself intimates) to gravely deliberate on the opposing forces and events that sought to overrun them and to destroy their profitable enterprises in mining and sundry craftsmanship, as well as their general way of life.

Michael Martinez notes: 'The only seven-kingdom alliance Tolkien documents is that from the War of the Dwarves and Orcs [TA 2793-99]' ('Middle-earth' blog, 16 June 2014). But surely there were other alliances ... For let's not forget the little matter of Sauron's bestowal of the great Dwarven Rings of Power: Seven, ostensibly, for each of the Seven Dwarf-kings . . .

Celebrimbor
of Eregion, of course, with his powerful secret brotherhood, the Gwaith-i-Mírdain (as these were instructed by Annatar, who was basically Sauron disguised as an 'angel of light'), were the central 'movers and shakers' in Galadriel's captivating exposition of 'the forging of the great rings' (it was Celebrimbor who, legend said, created Aragorn's emerald 'Elessar-stone', also called the Elfstone of Eärendil, an enchanted device of potent healing for one worthy, given once upon a time by Gandalf to Galadriel, to later present to this worthy one) … To the Elvenqueen's credit, she, as the founding Lady of Eregion (est. SA 750, also called Hollin, near the West-gate of Moria), instinctively mistrusted a Maia who appeared suddenly, claiming to act in the interests of the Valar-gods. But unbeknownst to Galadriel and Celeborn, the rulers of Eregion, was Celebrimbor's secret society of fellow-smiths (numbering only 17, including himself) — guardians of the ancient lore of Fëanorian arts, who shared their professional secrets with no one (much like the Fëanorians of Valinor themselves).

As such (SA 1200-1600), Annatar's seductive proposition for, and knowledge of, the Rings of Power was a secret project, virtually unknown by the Elves, yet taught over centuries, through patient deception, to secure a total trust. Notwithstanding, it was, from the Gwaith-i-Mírdain's perspective, a project of noblest intent: for through this project they sought to become 'healers' — of the earth and of the effects of Time. That is, absolutely void of 'strength or domination or hoarded wealth,' as Elrond observed, their intent was but to understand, to make, to heal, and 'to preserve all things unstained' from the effects of the infusion of Melkor-Morgoth's evil into the very fabric of Arda itself. Celebrimbor and his secret brotherhood hoped only to, as Michael Martinez states, 'devise something which would cleanse the Melkor-element from Middle-earth [but how] tragically ironic it was that they relied upon that very element to create the Rings...' ('Middle-earth' blog, 18 January 2012). Perhaps also the project was so secretive because of the possible moral implications, ramifications, or consequences of what they were attempting to fashion and create … a new technology to delay or wipe out the effects of earth and Time? Perhaps they felt that their Elven culture and society were 'not yet ready' to understand their good purposes, nor to, lacking a higher perspective, accept willingly any possible ill-effects which perchance might result from their experiment. None of them ever suspected that Annatar would seek to betray them.

The magical ring-devices
thus produced under such guarded secrecy (SA 1500-1590) ranged from the 'lesser rings' with only very specific powers or properties (described by Gandalf as mere 'essays in the craft before it was full-grown') to the Great Rings, the Rings of Power (including Sauron's Master Ring, forged c. SA 1600, when he completed the first Barad-dûr), which possessed many, and far greater properties. Among these were the Seven eventually given to 'the Dwarf-lordsof the mountain-halls...'

For Celebrimbor and his fellows, 'The veil of secrecy would have been burdened with shame and guilt once the Elves realized Sauron had betrayed them (c. SA 1600). Imagine how Celebrimbor must have felt, knowing he had forged the Rings in secret, upon learning that Sauron was Melkor’s old servant, now arrayed with his own Master Ring...' (Martinez, 2012).

The published Silmarillion states: 'As soon as Sauron set the One Ring upon his finger [Celebrimbor and his fellow-smiths] were aware of him; and they knew him, and perceived that he would be master of them . . . Then in anger and fear they took off their rings...' Foolishly, Annatar had revealed himself, his deceptive shroud had fallen, trusting — in his pride and arroganceto his own strength, thinking too little of even the great Elves against whom he had warred in the First Age and whom he now had failed miserably to deceive and enslave. For although Sauron was a Maia of tremendous power and wisdom, ever did he underestimate the strength of mind and will, the keen intelligence and skill, of his Elven foe.

Eregion's chief-Elvensmith would surely have felt compelled to straightaway confront his queen with the truth: with the dark revelation that something gravely unsettling had just happened and that there was a general sense among the Gwaith-i-Mírdain that something far worse was about to befall the Elves. Unable (as Elves ever had been) to destroy their own mighty works, Galadriel, who had now been briefed, counseled her husband-king Celeborn, such that they might 'hide' them, to give two Rings to Círdan the Shipwright of the Havens at Mithlond on the gulf-coasts of Lhûn, to whom everything must have now been disclosed about the Rings of Power and their 'secret history' (SA 1693). Each of the great Noldorin powers who were given this secret information — including the Noldorin High-King Gil-galad and his herald-captain Elrond Half-elven residing at Lindon, also on the western seacoasts — must have known that war with the uncloaked Sauron (no longer in 'sheep's clothing') was imminent: for now they realized that the Dark Lord had once again returned to Middle-earth, and, with his dark purposes now made bare against his will, had no intention of simply letting the storm pass — centuries of secrecy, the maintenance of which he undoubtedly supremely prided himself on, had now been split open wide for the few Elves who were so permitted to see ('The History of Galadriel and Celeborn,' Unfinished Tales [1980]).

No one else was ever told about the astonishing debacle that resulted in the War of the Elves and Sauron (SA 1693-1701); none beyond the ruling Elven-lords of Middle-earth were ever told the reasons for why Sauron (whose 'black-land' domain, est. c. SA 1000, was yet unknown) would so violently and preemptively strike out against them — not the Númenóreans (the assistance-pleas to whom, for a hundred-year buildup to war, must have been very carefully worded indeed); not the Dwarves, their neighbors in Moria; not even their own people. Nothing was said by any of the Elven-rulers concerning the Rings of Power, or about what the ensuing war with the Dark Lord was really about, to any of their allies, neither to their own folk, who, escaping incomprehensible death and destruction fled overland, or through Moria.

'Of course, the more people who know a secret, the less of a secret it is,' comments Martinez. 'Gil-galad had several potential captains to send east to reinforce Eregion. Why did he choose Elrond? Círdan was an ancient lord of the Eldar, experienced in the Wars of Beleriand (in fact, he was the only field commander to survive the wars). Glorfindel had returned to Middle-earth to help in the war ... He would also have been a good choice to send to Eregion. But it was Elrond whom Gil-galad sent [SA 1695] ... Elrond must have been present when Celebrimbor told Gil-galad about the Rings. He was close to Gil-galad, and therefore would be the only captain Gil-galad could [implicitly] trust with the knowledge of the Rings. Not that Gil-galad’s nobles would have been rebellious, but why burden them with guilt that wasn’t theirs?' (Martinez, 2012)

Were even Celebrimbor's own people ever told? Observes Martinez of what he calls the Elves' 'damning silence':


Quote

'The tragedy of Celebrimbor’s folly [is] heightened if his shame forbade him to confess what he and the Gwaith-i-Mírdain had done. If they weren’t telling the Dúnedain anything for secrecy’s sake, then it would be best not to tell the people of Eregion anything, either. And so that means the Dwarves of Moria couldn’t have known what the war was about. All anyone would be told was that the big bad Dark Lord was coming.

And come he did
. Sauron swept north and attacked everything in sight. He didn’t just invade Eregion, he also moved up into the Vales of Anduin and the lands east of Greenwood the Great. The Northmen were driven into the woods and mountains. Their culture was virtually wiped out. Many Elves must have perished as well. Eregion fell quickly and Sauron laid it waste [SA 1697]. As many Elves as escaped, many more must have suffered horrible deaths as Sauron searched desperately for the Rings of Power. If he couldn’t have the Elves he certainly wouldn’t want them to have their Valinor-in-Middle-earth!

The defense of Ost-in-Edhil [Eregion's capital city] would have been particularly bitter … [King] Celeborn led out a sortie … [its] purpose ... isn’t really stated, but it might imply that Celebrimbor recognized the hopelessness of the situation. Celeborn could have been given command of the most innocent Elves, whereas the Gwaith-i-Mirdain and their followers would have stayed behind and held the city. Celebrimbor’s last stand might have been an attempt to atone for what he had done. But instead of dying in battle and taking the secrets of the Rings with him he was driven back to the steps of the House of the Mirdain. Sauron must have given orders that he be taken alive at all costs...' (Martinez, 2012)



But [Sauron], finding that he was betrayed and that the Elves were not deceived, was filled with wrath; and he came against them with open war, demanding that all the rings should be delivered to him, since the Elven-smiths could not have attained to their making without his lore and counsel. But the Elves fled from him; and three of their rings they saved, and bore them away, and hid them ... From that time war never ceased between Sauron and the Elves; and Eregion was laid waste, and Celebrimbor slain, and the doors of Moria were shut [SA 1697] . . . ~ Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, The Silmarillion

At last the attackers broke into
Eregion with ruin and devastation, and captured the chief object of Sauron’s assault, the House of the Mírdain, where were their smithies and their treasures. Celebrimbor, desperate, himself withstood Sauron on the steps of the great door of the Mírdain; but he was grappled and taken captive, and the House was ransacked. There Sauron took the Nine Rings and other lesser works of the Mírdain; but the Seven and the Three he could not find. Then Celebrimbor was put to torment, and Sauron learned from him where the Seven were bestowed. This Celebrimbor revealed, because neither the Seven nor the Nine did he value as he valued the Three; the Seven and the Nine were made with Sauron’s aid, whereas the Three were made by Celebrimbor alone, with a different power and purpose . . . ~ The History of Galadriel and Celeborn, Unfinished Tales
.


Thus were all Rings of Power kept in Eregion until Sauron destroyed the realm. At that time, as the Dark Lord could learn nothing from Celebrimbor concerning the Three Rings, he had him put to deathas well as the rest of the Gwaith-i-Mirdain, so it may be assumed (they surely, in any event, perished there at that time (SA 1697), and are never again mentioned by Tolkien in any writings); moreover, their secret shame was preserved only by the few Eldarin lords who knew the full history of their involvement with the secret enterprise of Celebrimbor and Annatar.* Yet notwithstanding that fellowship's deadly silence, Sauron guessed the truth, that the Three had been committed to Elvish guardians: which, in Sauron's mind, meant only one thing: to Galadriel and Gil-galad. Tolkien certainly implies as well that at Ost-in-Edhil's fall Sauron seized the Seven and the Nine Rings of Power also, which he later redistributed to Dwarves and Men:


Quote

Sauron gathered into his hands all the remaining Rings of Power; and he dealt them out to the other peoples of Middle-earth, hoping thus to bring under his sway all those that desired secret power beyond the measure of their kind. Seven Rings he gave to the Dwarves; but to Men he gave nine, for Men proved in this matter as in others the readiest to his will . . .
~ Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, The Silmarillion



These particular Rings of Power, it must be remembered, were never intended for anyone but Elves by their Gwaith-i-Mírdain makers, including Annatar (Sauron). The Dark Lord only gave the Rings of Power to Dwarves and Men as a secondary plan when his first plan with the Gwaith-i-Mírdain failed.

*Interesting to note also, observes Martinez, is the survival of another 'elitist' society, or 'school', the Lambengolmor (Masters of Languages), whose last member was Pengolod 'the Wise' of Gondolin, who had survived the cataclysms of the First Age and lived in Eregion. In the War of the Elves and Sauron, he once again escaped the violence of war, thereafter taking ship to the Undying Lands of the West, to leave Middle-earth forever. 'The destruction of Eregion seems to imply that many other ancient and scholarly groups also perished', Martinez says, 'or suffered so terribly that their survivors left when they could.' In a LOTR Appendices note, Tolkien says that the Eldar attempted nothing new in the Third Age. 'It may simply be there was no one left who was accomplished enough in the ancient sub-creative arts to create new artifacts...' (Martinez, 2014).

In the war's wake, Gil-galad's realm of Lindon, which doubtless endured much loss, had to be rebuilt. Elrond's new northern haven and refuge at Imladris (Rivendell) in Eriador (est. SA 1697), founded when he was forced with Celeborn to flee from Sauron's forces in Eregion (having failed to reinforce Celebrimbor), needed fortifying. He enlisted as many Men and Elves as possible to strengthen the lands of the North after driving Sauron from Eriador and the Westlands (SA 1699-1701). But lingering in the minds of so many in Middle-earth (those who had suffered these losses and grieved) was surely the haunting question of 'Why?' What had been the impetus of such a senseless, destructive war? Was it simply Evil's aggression, or was there something else that lay behind this great carnage? Who exactly had the answers?

Certainly Elrond did, for he knew the disturbing truths, but he doubtless would have been unable to freely offer them. His defense was 'stalwart and brave', but as Martinez comments, 'it was perhaps strengthened by a resolution born of guilt and a desire to atone for the terrible decisions Celebrimborhis kinsmanhad made . . .


Quote

`In a way, the War of the Elves and Sauron marks a final loss of innocence for the Noldor. In the First Age, those Noldor who were born in Beleriand knew their history and heritage. In the Second Age, no one really knew the score. It was too dangerous to tell anyone. The Rings seem to have all had a very debilitating effect on the judgement of the people who knew of them. Neither Galadriel nor Gil-galad, who had nothing to do with the Rings’ making, could find the strength to destroy the Three...' (ibid).




At the post-war council at Imladris, Gil-galad finally may have revealed the truth about what actually had happened to those attending (which likely excluded Tar-Minastir and his Númenóreans, who, though surely rewarded for the great naval and provisional support they provided to defeat Sauron, had no real need to know about the Rings of Power, as the extent of their intercourse and interaction, or concern with the day-to-day affairs of Middle-earth at this time, was still rather limited). And all would simply have assumed that Sauron had seized the sixteen other Rings, as none of the survivors possessed them, but it's unlikely that the Eldarin nobles could have foreseen the Dark Lord's intent for their use. Yet the question remains of the Eldarin lords' deafening silence under the very real possibility that other racesMen and Dwarvesmight be ensnared. Surely Gil-galad and the other Eldarin rulers must have realized the grave potentialities that were laid open to this great Evil, armed as it was with such powerful devices.

As the years of the Second Age marched on and the growing population of the Númenóreans in Middle-earth naturally increased their intercourse of trade, commerce, and friendship among both Men and Elves, one can imagine the burdensome weight of such grave knowledge concerning the Rings of Power such as Gil-galad, Elrond, Círdan, and Galadriel possessed. Having on a regular basis to gaze into the faces of both Men and Dwarves — who were oblivious to the history of the Rings, who saluted them in a spirit of centuries-old trust and tested friendship — certainly must have been a heavy burden for them. Indeed, as Martinez suggests, 'the Eldar’s decision to tell no one about the Rings only compounded the errors of the Gwaith-i-Mírdain. For now Sauron was able to prey upon Dwarves and Men with impunity...' (ibid).

But how did Sauron move about unnoticed? What was it that kept the rest of Middle-earth's denizens 'in the dark' about the truth? Could it be that, being the 'shape-shifter' that he was, Sauron took on a new 'fair form' by which to deceive them?

For as to Sauron's approach now to Men and Dwarvesconcerning the Rings of Powerhaving of course failed in his plan for the Elves, this much we know:

Sauron took the Seven and the Nine back to Mordor after he seized them in the War of the Elves and Sauron.
There, in his dark, protected realm, Tolkien tells us, he 'perverted them' and somehow was able to get Dwarves and Men to accept these 'gifts', respectively. He clearly desired to use the Rings to control these 'weaker' races. But in the end, the Rings failed to accomplish that plan for him. For while obviously successful with Men (i.e., in the rise of the Nazgûl 'Ringwraiths', SA 2251), Sauron’s plan to subject the Dwarves to his own will failed.

With respect to Sauron's success in seducing Men to his will:


Quote

'The nine Men who took Rings of Power turned into wraiths and became Sauron’s most terrible servants. Men scattered across Middle-earth wouldn’t have known what to make of these Ringwraiths, but the Númenóreans would have remembered that Sauron of old was a master of phantoms and sorcery. The Dark Servants would not necessarily have been called Ringwraiths. They might have been perceived as wraiths, or demons, or something else...' (Martinez, 2012).



How, then, did Sauron approach Men, but particularly the Dwarf-lords, in order to deceive and to bestow upon them their Rings of Power?

We know, of course (it first must be said), of the belief among the Dwarves of Durin’s Folk that the Ring of Durin III, King of Khazad-dûm, was given to him by the Elven-smiths themselves. The key point here, however, is that this was a 'belief' — which certainly, then, leaves much to question about the manner by which the Seven Dwarf-lords actually received their Rings, especially in light of what is known about the Dark Lord's tactics. And so, other than this obscure note in the LOTR Appendices, Tolkien says nothing about the way in which the Seven Rings of the Dwarves came into their possession.

As suggested above, it seems likely that Sauron may have taken on 'new form' to begin anew his dark methods of seduction and Ring-bestowal. Sauron's original fair form before the Elves was, according to Tolkien, one of great splendor, similar to a man, but much greater in stature, almost giant-like. But a Necromantic shape-shifter can take on many forms, and so he may have appeared, as Martinez suggests, as even a primitive Drúadan (a member of the Drûgs; Tolkien's race of Púkel-men 'trolls', otherwise known as woodwoses, or 'wild-men of the woods'). But he might have so approached anyone in 'the ideal guise' to win their complete, unmitigated trust.

Knowing, as laid forth at the beginning of this post, that Dwarven delegations in fact gathered at Gundabad, and surely did so throughout the First and Second Ages, even after the War of the Elves and Sauron, it seems highly plausible that the Dark Lord could have disguised himself as a messenger of Aulë, or even (to give credence to the aforementioned Dwarvish belief) as one of the Elven-smiths of Eregion, and visited such a conclave of Dwarven-lords at Gundabad. There, he might have secretly given enticing proposition beyond any knowledge of the Noldorin lords and bestowed upon them the Seven Rings of Power.

Could the image we see in Peter Jackson's film be of the moment at Gundabad immediately after such unknowing seduction had taken place?
Is King Durin III of Moria amongst the Gundabad gathering that we see, standing forth as the official Longbeard representative of the House of Durin's Folk? This scenario, as I have postulated and envisioned it, is entirely plausible when viewed under the lights of a Tolkien scholar like Michael Martinez: for if, as he suggests, the Eldar 'never told the Dwarves why they fought a war with Sauron in the middle of the Second Age, the Dwarves would not have known to beware of a powerful 'friend' offering them great artifacts...' (Martinez, 2014). So that this splendid 'Prologue' image in Wellywood's first Middle-earth masterpiece of what appears to be a 'mutual admiration society' of 'Dwarvenkings at Gundabad' — 'shot' just after these rulers have convened and deliberated over their commercial gains / losses (?) due to the Elves' inexplicable war with a legendary, re-emergent Dark Lord (who from an equally mysterious, yet gracious 'Elven-smith envoy' from Eregion now hold aloft 'great gifted artifacts' in welcome relief and unlooked-for pleasure) — may 'in fact' represent the privileged moment that each fly-on-the-wall viewer 'observes' in Jackson's film.

Alternatively, Sauron may have, as Martinez suggests elsewhere, enticed both Men and Dwarves with lost treasure, the desire for which was a known weakness of both races — strategically placing the sixteen captured Rings — cleverly leaving them 'in secret places for a chosen handful of lords of Men and Dwarves to find. And they would not have told anyone of their discoveries. The veil of secrecy thus worked toward Sauron’s ends. He may have failed to enslave the Dwarven lords who took the Seven Rings, but he was still able to corrupt their hearts...' (Martinez, 2012).

In any case, it would have been from Gundabad that the Dwarvenkings returned to their homelands, where they passed on their Rings of Power to their heirs for thousands of years . . .

Following Ilúvatar's destruction of Númenor, when Men sought to assail the lands of the Valar-gods and seize everlasting life by force of arms (SA 3319), the peoples of Middle-earth were at peace with the conviction that Sauron, the wicked Maia of the West at last was deadfor all time. But then, like a hideous nightmare, he appeared again a hundred years latersuddenly, with an army that attacked the southern Dúnedain kingdom of Gondor (SA 3429). Isildur rushed word of the preemptive assault to the northern kingdom of Arnor, and there, Elendil consulted urgently with Gil-galad. The great guilt felt by the Eldarin-lords upon hearing the news of this dark advent must have been oppressive indeed. Were they even able to conceal it? Did their guilty expressions prompt questions from Elendil and son that petitioned a full disclosure of something that was not being told to them? According to Martinez:


Quote

'The Last Alliance of Elves and Men had to be formed on the basis of absolution. That is, Gil-galad had to tell Elendil and Isildur what was going on. And for their part, Elendil and Isildur had to forgive Gil-galad. Not just for themselves, but for countless generations of Men who couldn’t speak for themselves. In addition, they had to figure out what became of the missing Rings of Power. The Nazgûl had been known of for nearly a thousand years. In that time, the Eldarin lords who knew about the Rings of Power must have wondered if there was a connection. In fact, when the nine Men who became wraiths were still alive, Tolkien says they were great kings and sorcerers. If they were famous, did the Elves hear about their strange powers? Was there any curiosity about them?

'It would have been difficult for Gil-galad to learn much about the Rings of Power. If he and Galadriel couldn’t find the knowledge they required through some sort of scrying (as she did with her mirror in Lórien in the Third Age), they would either have to tell their spies and scouts what to look for, or they’d have to just wait and piece together bits and pieces of information through the centuries.

'[No one in fact knew] what the fates of the Seven and the Nine were. [At the time of the Last Alliance there was] no way to show that the Elves knew anything about the Seven before they were free to talk to the Dwarves. The Dwarves certainly weren’t running around telling people they had magic Rings. So the nine sorcerer-kings who arose among Men would have been conspicuous only in their longevity and their approximate contemporary lifetimes. And yet, if the Elves were looking for signs of Rings of Power, they would have been looking for sixteen, not nine, or seven, Rings [for they knew nothing of the Rings' disposition]. The fact that Sauron perverted the Rings before he gave them out would further complicate matters for the Elves. Gil-galad may not have really understood what was going on until Durin IV was invited into the alliance...' (Martinez, 2012).



Durin IV is thought by some to have been King of the Longbeard-dwarves at the end of the Second Age (after Durin III, who reigned during the War of the Elves and Sauron), but the way he became a part of the alliance was never disclosed by Tolkien. Gil-galad and Elendil, of course, formed the Last Alliance of Elves and Men (SA 3430) and afterwards marched to Imladris (SA 3431) to muster their forces — and surely to convene, with Gil-galad presiding, a grand strategic council of sorts, petitioning by messenger the aid of all the Free Peoples of Middle-earth: all willing, hearty and ready denizens hailing from Greenwood the Great, Lórien, Khazad-dum, and other sundry places. At such a momentous occasion, there would would have been in attendance many kings, lords and princes. Martinez suggests of that strategic conclave that 'it would have to be the first time ever that the Elves spoke openly about the Rings of Power to all their allies … [an advent] as momentous as the Council of Elrond three thousand years later...' (Martinez, 2012).

Gil-galad may have, with Durin's help, persuaded all Seven of the Dwarvenkings to make the long trek to Imladris. And it may be that, with a full disclosure of the Rings' history having been made, the Dwarves were further moved to make their own disclosure: that their forebears, too, by a mighty spirit of seduction which preyed upon their greatest weakness, had been given Rings of Power. For their great houses now were founded on mighty golden hoards, each of which, in turn, were founded on potent golden rings, compliments of Sauron the Deceiver. It may be also that at this grand council it was perceived, by the Dwarves' own disclosures, just why Sauron had ultimately failed with them — an answer that has to do with that race's inherent powerful resistance to the wills of others. As the ancient record attests:


Quote

'The Dwarves indeed proved tough and hard to tame; they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to shadows. They used their rings only for the getting of wealth; but wrath and an over-mastering greed of gold were kindled in their hearts, of which evil enough after came to the profit of Sauron. It is said that the foundation of each of the Seven Hoards of the Dwarf-kings of old was a golden ring; but all those hoards long ago were plundered and the Dragons devoured them, and of the Seven Rings some were consumed in fire and some Sauron recovered . . . ~ Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, The Silmarillion



But even with such open disclosures, the Dwarf-lords — who now had been clearly briefed on the Elven betrayals that had now twice befallen the Free Peoples — 'may have elected to stand aside,' as Martinez intimates: most of the Khazad 'would keep their Rings, which obviously didn’t prolong their lives, or turn them into wraiths. And they would let the world decide its own affairs. That seems a very Dwarvish attitude. Only the Longbeards developed any real affinity for the Eldar. Durin’s Folk had been joined by the Belegostians, who had also been friendly with the Eldar, but [there were many of] the Nogrodians [who yet held] an ancient grudge against the Eldar...' (Martinez, 2012).


Quote

The famous LOTR 'Ring-rhyme' must have been devised or composed, Michael Martinez interestingly comments, 'during the early years of the Last Alliance' — most likely at Imladris (Rivendell), 'soon after (if not during) whatever council Gil-galad held with the other rulers of Middle-earth', for the stanza speaks of the nature of the Nazgûl, who by the time of the Alliance were known to have possessed the Nine Rings of Power. Meanwhile, 'Middle-earth’s best-kept secret was no longer really a secret'. Even so, Gil-galad would not, at this 'grand council', have revealed 'the Keepers' or 'Guardians of the Three' (as we've come to call them from Peter Jackson's screen translations). The two Rings entrusted to him Gil-galad, in turn, entrusted 'for safe-keeping to Elrond and Círdan (any of whom may have personally known the evil-Men who became 'the Nine'). Martinez suggests that because the Ring-rhyme states that the Three were bestowed upon Elven-kings, the rhyme-composer could not therefore have known 'where the Three were', believing rather that 'Gil-galad, Oropher, and Amdír' perchance had the Three. 'Conveniently, all three [rulers] died in the war, and no one claimed the Three from their bodies. So the Elves and their allies must have been thrown into doubt about who had the Three soon after Gil-galad’s death' — a doubt reflected in the Ring-rhyme (Martinez, 2012) . . .

Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne,
In the
Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie,
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the
Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

.



It is indeed strange to think that Durin IV, the Lord of Durin's Folk ('the Longbeards'), who it is believed aided the Eldar in their war against Annatar-Sauron, would ever have accepted gifts from him — especially as we do know in fact that the Longbeard-dwarves stood with the best of Elves and Men in the War of the Last Alliance, when Sauron fell a second time (SA 3434-41: defeated at the Battle of Dagorlad in SA 3434, besieged for seven years at Barad-dûr, and finally overthrown in SA 3441). Thus it is almost certain that he and the other Dwarf-lords were utterly deceived as to the true source of their 'gifts'. Even so, Tolkien himself discloses that nearly all creatures were divided during the War of the Last Alliance of Elves and Men, but that only the Longbeards of Khazad-dum stood with Gil-galad and Elendil (it must be remembered, however, that 'Durin's Folk' at Moria were in actuality a disparate mix of the various kinsfolk of the Seven Dwarven houses).

The four eastern groups of Dwarves had little if any connection to the Elves and Dúnedain. But their eastern lords, too, were recipients indeed of the Dark Lord's Rings of Power. The association of perhaps some of their subjects with 'the dark side' should here come as no surprise (being that at least some of these houses were intimated by Tolkien to have been 'evil' anyway). That is, the revelation should confound no one that some Dwarves did, in their greed and corruption, serve Sauron in the War of the Last Alliance (for Tolkien himself suggests as much).

But what should also come as no surprise is that Sauron, even 'dead', persisted in his 'Rings' obsession — that even after his second downfall, when his spirit rose yet again, he attempted to sway the Khazad a second time (TA 3017 > Jackson: TA 3000) during the buildup to the War of the Ring in the Third Age: when he offered his three reclaimed Dwarven Rings to Erebor's king, Dain II Ironfoot (having perhaps performed re-incantations upon them, to infuse them with even greater enchantments and an overpowering will (?), to thereby perchance succeed with them in a way he'd been unable before to do — perhaps, then, not merely to obtain additional news of Bilbo Baggins, who reportedly had a key affiliation with the One Ring of Power that he so desperately sought). But these last, desperate overtures were ultimately spurned, as reported by Glóin at the Council of Elrond.

But all of this leads us to ask: Why did the Dark Lord, then, seek to reclaim the Seven Rings of Power from the Dwarves, who seemed impervious to Sauron's mastery anyway? What might he have hoped to accomplish by this? He clearly hadn't as much success with Dwarves in his 'Rings project' as he indisputably had had with Men, due simply to the fact that Dwarves, as a race, were especially resistant to the domination of their wills by an external will. And so, although the Seven Rings may have inflamed their greed, anger, and overmastering pride, they ultimately failed to corrupt the Dwarvenkings in precisely the same way that the Nine Rings succeeded with the Nazgûl.

That some of the eastern houses of the Khazad might have fallen into 'evil,' as Tolkien himself suggested, does not mean necessarily that they, by force of the Dark Lord's will, became his servants or allies; only that they, for whatever reason, enlisted in his cause — which likely goes back to an innate greedy self-interest that, in turn, translates anyway to a corruption of character, but not to a subservience to his will.

But to answer the question of why reclaim the Dwarven Rings, we must recall that the Dwarven Rings needed gold 'to breed gold', as Thrór told Thráin when he gave his son the Ring of Power of Durin's House. And that each of the Seven treasure hoards were founded upon Rings of Power meant that the seizing or destroying of any one of them would (with the aid of dragons) ensure impoverishment of the Dwarvenkings, and thereby mesh with Sauron's 'long-term strategy of dividing his enemies, estranging them from one another, and wearing them down...' (Martinez, 'Middle-earth' blog, 11 December 2013).

Although we don’t know precisely when the Dwarf-rings were taken or destroyed, we do know that dragons reappeared in the North around TA 2570, according to Tolkien in his LOTR Appendices, and that they sometime thereafter began plundering the Dwarvenkings’ hoards. Even though the line of Durin was able to retain its Ring of Power, four others ended up being consumed by dragons by TA 2845, as Gandalf intimates to The White Council in Peter Jackson's film. Within that 300-plus-year time-frame window, according to Michael Martinez (2014), the Dark Lord also seized the other two Rings of Power. Martinez guesses that the two Rings' capture occurred after the end of the Goblin-wars in TA 2799 — the year the Battle of Moria (Azanulbizar) was fought (although Jackson, in his film, alternatively suggests through Gandalf that 'Of the Seven Dwarf-rings ... two were taken by Sauron before he fell in Mordor'which would almost certainly mean, of course, the Rings of Power belonging to the Dwarvenkings whose 'mansions' were at Gundabad). Martinez admits there to be 'no textual support' for his post-Goblin-wars theory, only that 'all the Dwarven realms had been weakened by their losses in the war. If Sauron knew that any of the Rings were among those Dwarves returning to their homelands he could have waylaid them...' (Martinez, 2014).

Of course, the Dark Lord seized Thráin after the Goblin-wars and took his Ring from him, 'the last of the Seven', according to the unfortunate Ereborian-heir himself (Thráin may have known that his was 'the last' either by Sauron's personal disclosures or by Thráin's own privileged knowledge among the Dwarf-lords of the history of the Rings of Power). But according to Tolkien, Thráin already had Thrór's Ring of Power when he called forth the Dwarves to avenge his father's murder by Orcs. By this Tolkien was perhaps suggesting that Thráin thereby was enabled, through the use of his Ring, to unite the Dwarves in common purpose. And If such were the case, then Sauron, who still searched desperately for the One Ring of Power, certainly must have feared that the Dwarves might employ their Rings against him. This gives plausible rationale as to why the Dark Lord strove to recover as many of the Dwarven Rings as possible — which might also explain, according to Martinez, 'why Sauron would be willing to give out the three remaining Rings to Dain [Ironfoot]', for if the Dark Lord had further perverted the Rings, he surely would have felt empowered with greater chance at enslaving a Dwarf-king 'the second time around' (ibid). But having been spurned by Ironfoot, his three reclaimed Dwarf-rings ostensibly were destroyed with the fall of Barad-dûr; in any case, they would have been rendered impotent when the One Ring perished in the fires of Orodruin (25 March TA 3019 > Jackson: TA 3002).

Martinez observes that as the centuries passed, 'the Rings became less and less important to the peoples of Middle-earth.' Sauron certainly desired them, and the White Council knew they were perilous (with great and terrible wars having been fought over them in the past) and that they still posed a threat to the Free Peoples. Saruman's specialized knowledge of Ring-lore would have been very useful to the Eldar and the Istari, helping them to understand — once Gandalf discovered that Sauron was gathering all Rings to him and had taken back the Rings of Power from the Nazgûlwhat exactly Sauron had done to the Rings and who could wield them. Certainly, during the War of the Ring (TA 3018-19 > Jackson: TA 3001-02), the main rulers understood that 'a great and powerful talisman was being risked. They understood, essentially, that the entire war was really being fought over the Ring.'

The full history of the Rings of Power, however, was probably known only to Elrond, Galadriel, and Círdan, and probably Saruman and Gandalf (perhaps even a few other members of the White Council as well). But for everyone else . . .


Quote

'… there were bits and pieces of lore handed on generation after generation [— nobles who, for instance,] must have passed on the barest knowledge of the Rings of Power in an almost religious devotion. When all other lore of ancient days was lost or forgotten amid unreadable scrolls, men remembered to tell their sons that, at one time, there was a Dark Lord who had a very terrible Ring. And that Ring was unlike all other magical things in Middle-earth. The knowledge persisted where it was needed most, so that when the time came, it served to strengthen the resolve of the men who had to stand up to the Dark Lord ... while a couple of Hobbits scampered up the side of Orodruin. No one really needed to understand the history of the Rings to remember that they existed. People were aware of them in a vague, general way. But the long years and the devastations wreaked upon Men, Elves, and Dwarves had served to make secret again the ancient shame of the Eldar...' (Martinez, 2014).
.



And, of course, among those who were so 'strengthened' by the perilous tales told of these potent Rings of Power, and who had to 'stand up to the Dark Lord' to oppose and to resist . . . were the Dwarves of Belegost and Nogrod and Moria . . . and Gundabad.

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