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Elthir
Grey Havens
Feb 17 2015, 3:39pm
Post #51 of 69
(1016 views)
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... as Maedhros waived his claim.
"For Maedhros begged forgiveness for the desertation in Araman; and he waived his claim to kingship over all the Noldor, saying to Fingolfin: If there lay no grievance between us, lord, still the kingship would rightly come to you, the eldest here of the house of Finwe, and not the least wise."
I don't recall if Gil-galad's hair colour is mentioned, but I'm not sure the colour would necessarily be problematic if he is a Finarfinian (again, if the colour is noted).
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Feb 17 2015, 4:05pm
Post #52 of 69
(1010 views)
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"For Maedhros begged forgiveness for the desertion in Araman; and he waived his claim to kingship over all the Noldor, saying to Fingolfin: If there lay no grievance between us, lord, still the kingship would rightly come to you, the eldest here of the house of Finwe, and not the least wise. But to this his brothers did not all in their hearts agree. Therefore even as Mandos foretold the House of Feanor were called the Dispossessed, because the over-lordship passed from it, the elder, to the house of Fingolfin, both in Elende and in Beleriand, and because also of the loss of the Silmarils"
From the constructed Silmarillion, anyway.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Feb 17 2015, 4:17pm
Post #53 of 69
(1007 views)
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"... or something."
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Feb 17 2015, 4:39pm
Post #54 of 69
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Typical mixing of the Quenta with the Annals
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That paragraph is mostly taken from the Quenta, but the words that you cite are inserted from the Grey Annals, where they actually appear later in the narrative than is presented here (at the subsequent Council in Mithrim).
And there is your useless trivia for the day!
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Darkstone
Immortal
Feb 17 2015, 4:41pm
Post #55 of 69
(1015 views)
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As Queen of Elves and Men she [Arwen] dwelt with Aragorn for six-score years in great glory and bliss...
-The Return of the King, Appendix A(v)
Not Queen of Elves:
After the disaster in Moria [in the year 1980] and the sorrows of Lórien, which was now left without a ruler (for Amroth was drowned in the sea in the Bay of Belfalas and left no heir), Celeborn and Galadriel returned to Lórien, and were welcomed by the people. There they dwelt while the Third Age lasted, but they took no title of King or Queen; for they said that they were only guardians of this small but fair realm, the last eastward outpost of the Elves.
-Unfinished Tales
The High King of all the Elves:
Finwë was king in Tirion and Olwë in Alqualondë;but Ingwë was ever held the High King of all the Elves. He abode thereafter at the feet of Manwë upon Taniquetil.
-The Silmarillion, Quenta Silmarillion, Ch 5, Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië
******************************************
I met a Balrog on the stair,
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today,
I wish he would just fly away.
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Maciliel
Valinor
Feb 17 2015, 9:56pm
Post #56 of 69
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so what does the title of monarch mean to elves?
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if galadriel and celeborn would take no title but "lady" and "lord," because they deemed themselves guardians, what extra does a monarchial title mean?
i see elven nature as rooted in guardianship -- of nature, each other, etc..... so what are the extras connoted with queen/kingship?
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Feb 17 2015, 10:06pm
Post #57 of 69
(985 views)
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They're not far off from calling themsleves beekeepers and babysitters.
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Though Tolkien admired the guardian role, and being a "Shepherd of the Trees" was prestigious (whereas in much literature, wealthier, more urbanized people would mock human shepherds as uncouth.
Maybe you're onto something, Mac, that the Elven attempt at monarchy in ME didn't go so well, and Elves found their more natural, humbler niche as guardians rather than rulers. Cirdan never became King of Lindon that we know of, and Elrond was just Master of Rivendell, not Prince, Duke, etc. Thranduil was still a king, but not as exalted as the rulers farther west of him. He seems like one of those "rustic folk of hill and dell" that Galadriel despaired of degenerating into, regardless of title. (And there is such a thing in history as "petty kings," which no one admits to personally, but chroniclers use.)
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Maciliel
Valinor
Feb 17 2015, 10:32pm
Post #58 of 69
(984 views)
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hullo! queens and petty queens
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i get the sense that tolkien views monarchy as the right and proper system -- but that system has to be ruled, should be ruled by those who have been seeded with the wise, enlightened, valar-blessed monarch gene. sort of like midichlorions in the star wars universe. you can go to class with yoda all you want, but unless you have the force (sourced from those midichlorions), you won't be doing any parlor tricks.
so all the children of the original kings of the elves (should we include lenwe and denethor?) have this special seed, all have potential to be rulers.
i think tolkien saw elven monarchy as the right order of things, but perhaps not seen to its potential. clearly, many (more than what i would consider an aberration) elves desired and even craved rulership (feanor, galadriel, turgon, thingol), and had very fancy notions of entitlement (caranthir, etc.). were the best monarchs those that eschewed the title (like galadriel and celeborn) or never seemed to aspire to it (elrond, cirdan)? cirdan, like galadriel, also seems like a monarch in all but title.
btw, i see the green elves, the followers of lenwe and denethor, after denethor was slain and after they retreated into the hills, as the "rustic folk" that galadriel speaks of, rather than the silvan elves over whom thranduil ruled.
i wonder how thranduil felt, as a sinda, about a noldo ruling over his fellow people (fellow sindar)? might not he see himself as more appropriate to rule over them (whether in lorien or mirkwood)? if celeborn hailed from doriath, perhaps he wouldn't be disgruntled. but if celeborn came from over the see with the rest of that lot, perhaps there would be issues.
i don't see a lot of "making oneself king/queen" in tolkien, or dark horse candidates. the best rulers in middle-earth have worthy lineage. we also don't see in tolkien more democratic peoples (except for hobbits, who are a bit anachronistic in many ways). in tolkien's world, all does not seem quite right without a ruling king or ruling lord (or lady, in galadriel's case). i don't agree with this sensibility, but i think it was basically tolkien's.
amongst humans, it seems odd to me, and highly unlikely, that aragorn was the only direct descendant left from isildur. there were probably many sisters in that line who bore children who (male and female) were also directly descended. on a practical level, i see it that way. but numenoreans -- when they were in numenor, at least -- were fine with ruling queens, so perhaps there weren't any left, besides aragorn. he had to be the only one left for the purposes of the story, at any rate.
someone on another thread suggested that tolkien meant to imply that luthien's line (and arwen's line) never failed into the modern age, and that the monarchs of the present day (of western and northern europe, at least) descend from them.
if so, i find it distressing to think that in our world, it would be "right" to be ruled by these royal families.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Feb 17 2015, 10:45pm
Post #59 of 69
(975 views)
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Despite the citation from Unfinished Tales (which I believe is repeated twice in UT), and Tolkien's bite at the Zimmerman script (where he states Nerwen is not in fact a queen)...
... we have Queen Galadriel in The Lord of the Rings (by Gimli), and "A queen she was of the woodland Elves..." used by the narrator of Of The Rings of Power. This leads me to believe that in the early 1950s, at least, JRRT had no problem with the term referring to Galadriel, and in the song of Nimrodel Amroth is refered to as an "Elven-king" of old.
And to note it, once again published by JRRT in The Road Goes Ever On (1967), Galadriel is generally said to be the last survivor of the princes and queens who had led the rebel Noldor to Middle-earth.
That said, in the description in Unfinished Tales Tolkien is clearly trying to make a point here about not taking the title...
... I think Voronwe (the lawyer not the Noldo) made an interesting post about this somewhere, but I can't remember the details. Maybe at his site somewhere.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Feb 17 2015, 10:59pm)
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Maciliel
Valinor
Feb 17 2015, 11:10pm
Post #60 of 69
(967 views)
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gimli's devotion is charming...
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gimli's devotion is charming, but i would not hang an argument for a queen's crown on it.
the other citations (and i've read them in other posts, probably yours : ), elsewhere) are far more convincing.
... so... if arwen is queen of elves and edain -- queen of all the elves left in middle-earth.... do the elves in middle-earth have no king? just a queen? she has authority over them, but aragorn does not (even if that authority is never really exercised)?
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Feb 17 2015, 11:27pm
Post #61 of 69
(962 views)
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I agree that Gimli's mention doesn't quite legitimize Galadriel as queen. Frodo calls Maggot's wife a queen among hobbits in his ecstasy over her gift of mushrooms. People can be given over to hyperbole.
I think the point about Amroth was that he WAS a king, but his successors (Galadriel and Celeborn) were not monarchs but caretakers/chieftains/guardians/stewards/whatever.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Feb 17 2015, 11:51pm
Post #62 of 69
(965 views)
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Successful countries, companies, and other organizations normally thrive under good leadership. It helps to have someone in authority with a strategic vision of where the organization is heading, who can resolve the inevitable disagreements among members as to ways and means (or even, on occasion, goals).
Tolkien is just taking the idealistic view that good leaders will arise (normally out of "good bloodlines") and people will recognize them and respect their leadership. He is not so foolish as to believe this will work universally: look at Numenor and the Northern & Southern Kingdoms in Middle Earth, all of which suffered from bad leaders at one time or another. The Elves seem to do rather better in this regard than Men, unsurprisingly. But, hey, Primary World democracies sometimes elect poor leaders, too, so it's no panacea!
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Feb 18 2015, 4:06am
Post #63 of 69
(968 views)
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The only recent comment that I can think of making about Galadriel was here at TORN, in the Hobbit movie forum, when I said, after pointing that the Silmarillion Elves were "deeply-flawed, but vibrantly powerful" that "Galadriel was a special case" because:
"Although she appears in the final version of The Silmarillion, she did not exist before she was created in The Lord of the Rings (unlike, for instance, Elrond, who existed before his appearance in The Hobbit). It is pretty fascinating to watch Tolkien attempt to shoehorn the character that he created in LOTR into the old legends, something that he never quite figured out exactly how to do (as seen most clearly in the "History of Galadriel and Celeborn" section of UT, as well as various other writings that appear in HoMe)."
I doubt that is what you are referring to, since it isn't all that interesting, and doesn't directly relate to the subject at hand. If I can elaborate a bit though, I do think that, despite the couple of slips that you and others reference, Tolkien was very purposeful in not calling Galadriel a queen. She is, in LOTR, created to be very much a Mary-ian figure (something which I think the filmmakers captured very well in some of their imagery). As such, her authority is much more of a spiritual nature, rather than of a temporal nature. Trying to then shoehorn that Mary-ian, highly spiritual character into the much more pagan mythological feel of the "deeply flawed, but vibrantly powerful" Silmarillion Elves. His later writings on the character seem very much meant to attempt to bridge that gap.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
(This post was edited by Voronwë_the_Faithful on Feb 18 2015, 4:07am)
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Feb 18 2015, 11:47am
Post #64 of 69
(955 views)
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recently... as in this century
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http://www.thehalloffire.net/...c.php?f=5&t=2659
Anyway, while I agree Gimli's reference could easily be his subjective characterization, I'm not sure we have slips of queen references necessarily (although it could well be)...
... it could be rather that in a given "phase" (period of time) Tolkien wanted to make the point he makes in Unfinished Tales, where in other instances, or periods of time, he is thinking differently about things.
Again for me Eregion becomes a grey area here. I believe Tolkien discarded Galadriel as co-ruler of Eregion, so (if so) she didn't have her realm yet! On the other hand, due to the later timeline, Galadriel could have easily learned the importance of not taking the title "queen" by the time Lorien needed a ruler.
I mean we are well into the Third Age when Amroth is drownded!
Someone made a point about Amroth being a King of the past compared to the UT quote and Galadriel. The point works well enough when you compare these two references, but these texts were written years apart, and I think the citation you raise in the linked thread is with respect to (in theory given the One) a notable step in rule and influence... a Queen of Middle-earth... as in replacing Sauron.
The citations that, I think, could be better grouped in an earlier phase are: King Amroth, Gimli's Queen Galadriel, and the Rings Of Power "A queen she was..."
That said, it is also true that JRRT could have easily used Queen Galadriel when she was introduced in The Lord of the Rings, or somwhere in those chapters, instead of merely in Of The Rings Of Power...
... but I'm just going in circles here...
... in any case that was the thread I remembered reading.
As you see, there are no comments from Elthir there, but I did read it 
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Feb 18 2015, 12:29pm
Post #65 of 69
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PS: years and years and King Amroth
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The point works well enough when you compare these two references, but these texts were written years apart,...
Although I realize some of the texts I am "better grouping" might also have been written "years" apart, the two late Unfinished Tales notes -- the "took no title" references to Galadriel and Celeborn -- are I believe, generally dated to the later 1960s.
Possibly 1969 or later even, if they go along with the Amroth section (as they seem to). So significantly later than Of The Rings Of Power or the song of Nimrodel reference to Amroth being an Elven-king...
... but ahem... the late Amroth tale begins with Amroth being King of Lorien!
cough...oops...
So never mind. Good point in any case Curious!
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Feb 18 2015, 1:59pm
Post #66 of 69
(940 views)
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I am flattered that you have been paying attention to what I have to say for so long
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Although it pretty much confirms something that I have been wondering about for some time. An interesting poster by any other name is still just as interesting (to completely mangle the Bard).
Honestly, I barely remember making that post, over five years ago (I actually wet back and searched posts at HoF, but stopped at 2011, because I figured you couldn't be talking about that long ago!). While I still think there is some validity to what I said, I kind of like my new hypothesis about Galadriel as Mary-ian, spiritual force, rather than a temporal one.
And of course I agree with you that the differing references could very easily be due to Tolkien's shifting conceptions. Eru knows, they shifted a lot!
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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elostirion74
Rohan
Feb 27 2015, 7:34pm
Post #69 of 69
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the importance of the story in terms of the reading experience
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"So why do the constructed versions exist? I think that the constructed versions serve as a "reader's experience": they deliver the impact of reading a book, to put it simply. This was the intended presentation in general, as obviously Tolkien did not intend to publish a scholarly look at a mix of his unfinished Silmarillion writings, written at different times in his life."
I´m glad you pointed out why the constructed versions exist. The point that the "reader´s experience" was Tolkien´si n tended presentation often tends to be overlooked in discussions about the Silmarillion, or material directly relating to the Silmarillion. Without reading the stories and looking at the underlying themes and cohesion of themes within the cycle of stories that make up the published 1977 Silmarillion, I would find it rather meaningless to discuss or even care about details concerning parentage, elven marriage laws and customs and so on.
In the foreword to the constructed version of the Silmarillion Christopher Tolkien explains quite clearly and succinctly what he set out to do and the general reasoning he applied to the work. And IMO he clearly succeeded.
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