|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Konrad S
Lorien
Feb 15 2015, 5:23am
Post #1 of 69
(1554 views)
Shortcut
|
First is Finwe king of the noldor, after him Feanor,after him Maedhros but Maedhros give that to Fingolfin, After him Fingon and soon Turgon? why Turgon, why Not Gil-galad? his son. Its like Feanor is king when he die ,Fingolfin is the new king, soon when Fingolfin i died, they Maedhros becomes king. I think it go from father to son dont from father to brother to fathers son.
|
|
|
PhantomS
Rohan
Feb 15 2015, 5:49am
Post #2 of 69
(1393 views)
Shortcut
|
Even though Eronion Gil Galad was the son of Fingon, he was on the Mouths of Sirion and later on the Isle of Balar with Cirdan and a mix of Elves that were mostly not Noldorin. Turgon on the other hand was ruling a strong Noldor-dominated city, and unlike Gilgalad everyone knew he was alive, albeit hidden from the world. Also, Turgon was on the field at the Nirnaeth Adroneidad (sp) wheras Gilgalad was just a little boy by Elvish standards.
|
|
|
Nerven
Rivendell
Feb 15 2015, 8:27am
Post #3 of 69
(1379 views)
Shortcut
|
Actually Tolkien intended that Gil Galad was son of Orodreth. That would make him of the house if Finarfin so it makes sense that Turgon became King after Fingon. Christopher admitted that he made a mistake in the Silmarillion, saying Gil Galad was son of Fingon. Probably he wanted to create a parallel, that the house of Finarfin the true, rules both in Aman and ME.
(This post was edited by Nerven on Feb 15 2015, 8:29am)
|
|
|
Konrad S
Lorien
Feb 15 2015, 8:47am
Post #4 of 69
(1374 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Okay he dont become king bechause he was with sindar.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
|
|
|
Konrad S
Lorien
Feb 15 2015, 8:50am
Post #5 of 69
(1379 views)
Shortcut
|
The book say that Odoreth is son of Finarfin
The wiki say that Odoreth is son os Aegnor
And the wiki say that Odoreth is cousin of Maedhros.
|
|
|
Nerven
Rivendell
Feb 15 2015, 10:12am
Post #6 of 69
(1373 views)
Shortcut
|
I think Tolkiens final view was that Orodreth was son of Aegnor but it would still work with Orodreth being Finarfins son, so I don´t know why he has to be one generation below, Orodreth being Finarfins son would only strenghen Gil Galads claim.
The wiki is not really the best source, everyone can write there, I´m not sure, I think it Unfinished tales or history of ME the matter is clarified.
|
|
|
Elthir
Grey Havens
Feb 15 2015, 1:46pm
Post #7 of 69
(1369 views)
Shortcut
|
As noted already, Tolkien actually revised the idea of Gil-galad as the son of Fingon making him a Finarfinian and son of Arothir (Arothir is 'Orodreth', now Galadriel's nephew) son of Angrod... once this occurs Galadriel's nephew's son becomes High King of the Eldar in Middle-earth. I like the observations of 'solicitr' (not sure if he posts here):
'An observation on 'male primogeniture:' I don't think it quite fits the given accounts (any of them) to impose the Salic Law on the Eldarin royal houses. The more I revolve the claim of kingship as it in fact passed (and didn't pass), the more I am convinced that Kingship among the Elves could pass in the female line, but not to a female: she would preserve it for her male descendants. If this is the case then it makes perfect sense why Dior is Thingol's Heir, not Luthien; that Earendil son of Idril rules at the Havens (and that his wife Elwing was not "Queen" of the Sindarin majority there), and that T[olkien] never even considers Galadriel as being a claimant. (Perhaps one reason he dumped Amroth as G & C's son is that Amroth would have suddenly become a claimant- instead, G has a daughter, who has a daughter...whose son Eldarion 'scion of Elves' is considerd the ruler of Middle-earth's remaining Eldar.).
(...) I think that may be it precisely: seniority in age was what mattered, rather than line of descent. G-G was older than Earendil. After all, the Elves' quasi-immortality poses a real problem for the traditional Mannish system of lineal primogeniture- there's always a chance that a child from a senior line to the reigning King could pop up.
(...) Perhaps the law was simply "the eldest male member of the Royal House in Middle-earth." Elves didn't have to worry about an older generation being short-lived! Therefore Turgon would come before GG, no matter who GG's father was, and GG would then be senior to Earendil.'
Solicitr
G-G is Gil-galad 
|
|
|
Elthir
Grey Havens
Feb 15 2015, 2:27pm
Post #8 of 69
(1377 views)
Shortcut
|
|
friendly warning: be wary of Tolkien information on the web...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
... said Elthir... on the web 
Here's Tolkien's revised* line:
Gil-galad >> son of Arothir** >> son of Angrod >> son of Finarfin
__________
*a revision not taken up by Christopher Tolkien for his constructed Silmarillion of course. Which will explain why the "book" (The Silmarillion published in 1977) is different here.
**this is a different name for Orodreth, who was dropped a generation. I'm not sure if Tolkien intended to retain the name Orodreth for this character (I haven't really looked into that question myself, yet).
(This post was edited by Elthir on Feb 15 2015, 2:35pm)
|
|
|
Konrad S
Lorien
Feb 15 2015, 3:23pm
Post #9 of 69
(1351 views)
Shortcut
|
|
If Gil-galad was son of Odoreth then is Galadriel high queen of the noldor or Celeborn
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
|
|
|
Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Feb 15 2015, 5:12pm
Post #10 of 69
(1340 views)
Shortcut
|
Quite possibly my favorite phrase in all of HoMe. 
Speaking of ephemeral, I am not sure but I believe that is one of the many places that your friend solicitr has managed to get himself banned at.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
|
|
|
Maciliel
Valinor
Feb 15 2015, 5:18pm
Post #11 of 69
(1337 views)
Shortcut
|
|
tolkien did not consider galadriel a queen
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
tolkien did not consider galadriel a queen (high or low or no).
i find this non-sensical.
she clearly ruled lorien as a monarch, if not in title. but tolkien was emphatic that she was not a queen. tolkien calls her "lady," but i am unsure if that is because she is finarfin's daughter, and is thus (from her birth) always, "lady galadriel." similarly celeborn is naturally a lord, because of his elevated parentage. so "lord / lady of lorien" might just be descriptions, rather than actual titles. in either case, tolkien was emphatic that celeborn was co-ruler.
one might argue that the patterns of transfer of the title "high-king" (or "high-monarch") of the noldor went to males only (even if it could be passed through females, like luthien and idril).
however, inheriting a monarch's title does not seem to be the only legitimate way to acquire one.
after the sack of doriath, oropher and other sindar escape, and he either puts himself forward as king or is taken for king by the refugee sindar. not just "leader," "chieftan," or even "lord." +king+.
it seems to me that galadriel is most certainly a queen, even if she is not "high-queen of the noldor."
this is one aspact of tolkien's middle-earth that seems sexist and outmoded to me.
cheers ---
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
(This post was edited by Maciliel on Feb 15 2015, 5:22pm)
|
|
|
Konrad S
Lorien
Feb 15 2015, 5:23pm
Post #12 of 69
(1323 views)
Shortcut
|
|
If Gil-galad was son of Odoreth also .
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
If Turgon died then should Idril,Tuor or Erändil be the leader of noldor, In that case took Gil-galad throne from the heir.
|
|
|
HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell
Feb 15 2015, 6:21pm
Post #13 of 69
(1317 views)
Shortcut
|
|
It depends on which version you acept
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Since I grew up reading that Gil-galad was son of Fingon, I view Gil-galad from the House of Fingolfin, not Finarfin.
Of course, Tolkien had changed it, but we don't know what he ultimately would have ruled in the end. He left it up to his son Christopher to finish it. Christopher Tolkien acknowledges making Gil-galad son of Fingon a mistake, but sometimes a mistake can lead to good things, rather than bad ones.
To go back and revise the Silmarillion and the history (though not histiography) of ME to me is just too much trouble.
If we stay within the "mistaken" version, Gil-galad is too young to take the throne, and he doesn't really have a kingdom (his father's kingdom is destroyed in the sack of the Battle of Unnumbered Tears). To say how Gil-galad becomes High King using his "correct" heritage from House of Finarfin, you'd have to explain away a lot. That is fine. In real "history" this happens all the time.
Nevertheless, I'm sticking with Gil-galad as son of Fingon. HE didn't get crown right away because he was too young by Elvish standards.
Might makes Right!
|
|
|
Elthir
Grey Havens
Feb 15 2015, 8:40pm
Post #14 of 69
(1309 views)
Shortcut
|
Very well. Still, what I posted (not that you said otherwise) is true: the revised history -- the latest version of this matter from the author and creator of Middle-earth -- is that Gil-galad was a Finarfinian, son of Arothir/Orodreth. In earlier versions Gil-galad was also a Finarfinian.
So we now know, as much as anyone can know, who Gil-galad's father was according to Tolkien's last known idea. No JRRT didn't publish this himself, nor did he publish his Silmarillion at all, meaning that we don't know how Tolkien would have ultimately ruled (as you say) about plenty of things, not just this matter.
Which is part of why I put author-published texts in a whole different box... but that's another matter in general.
To say how Gil-galad becomes High King using his "correct" heritage from House of Finarfin, you'd have to explain away a lot. That is fine. In real "history" this happens all the time.
Hmm, how many things constitute "a lot"
One problem (in my opinion) is the Fall of Nargothrond and how Turin could rise to such influence if Arothir had a son, but we should keep in mind that any revision to account for Gil-galad as the son of Arothir (Orodreth) is going to be made, in theory, to private papers...
... that is, the history of the Elder Days was still unknown to Tolkien's readership at large. JRRT could make "drastic" changes without upsetting anyone's boat, in theory, as only the final version would be made public for consumption as a tale.
From Tolkien's perspective I mean.
I say this because in the past people have pointed to certain statements from the Turin tale that conflict with the idea. My response is, okay, if so, get out the "red pen" and alter them. From JRRT's perspective no one will even know the statements existed, and if the stories get published (as intended) and the statements still come to light...
... then they would be no more problematic that Trotter the Hobbit is to Strider the Dúnadan
Christopher Tolkien essentially notes this about the Elder Days in Unfinished Tales with respect to Galadriel, although I'm not sure he took into account what had been said about her in The Road Goes Ever On when he made this statement.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Feb 15 2015, 8:55pm)
|
|
|
Elthir
Grey Havens
Feb 15 2015, 9:16pm
Post #15 of 69
(1300 views)
Shortcut
|
I believe Gimli refers to Galadriel as a Q(q)ueen in The Lord of the Rings (somewhere). Of course that is Gimli not Nerwen herself, but still.
And the fictional author of Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age refers to Artanis as a Q(q)een of Lorien (not published by JRRT himself, in any case).
Of course there are two (at least) references to Galadriel taking no title of Queen, in Unfinished Tales, (also not published by Tolkien himself of course) and Tolkien's snap in reaction to a film script that she was not "in fact" one...
... but hey, she still ruled Lorien essentially, even if along with that guy she married
|
|
|
Maciliel
Valinor
Feb 15 2015, 11:11pm
Post #17 of 69
(1290 views)
Shortcut
|
blackfox, thank you for unearthing this; i don't have that particular volume.
elthir, always love your informative posts.
i entirely agree with you that gil-galad as orodreth's son (as tolkien's last, expressed thought on the matter) would ultimately not present a problem, if the thought were taken to full maturation and published. no doubt tolkien would have cleaned everything up and made it flow more-or-less logically. and we would never have known.
had he been able to tweak +and+ publish the silmarillion (in his lifetime), no doubt afterwards, with the posthumous publishing of HOME, we would all be expressing, "egads! can you believe tolkien once envisioned gil-galad as fingon's son?"
.... more or less. you get the idea.
cheers : )
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
|
|
|
Maciliel
Valinor
Feb 15 2015, 11:14pm
Post #18 of 69
(1287 views)
Shortcut
|
|
future editions of the silmarillion
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
part of me wonders if / why not christopher would fix some of the errors (like gil-galad) and put back some of the richness that he stripped out (re various characters, many of them female).
what significant corrections has the silmarillion undergone?
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
|
|
|
HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell
Feb 16 2015, 1:34am
Post #19 of 69
(1276 views)
Shortcut
|
There is an entire discipline of historical revisionism that addresses changes to history. From Alexander to Thomas Jefferson to even Martin Luther King, there is a great deal written about people in the past may be revised for any number of reasons. My point is not to get into revisionism per se, but to point out that even in the "real world" of Middle Earth, there is a great deal of revisionism.
I won't get into too many examples here, but there is even revisionism about Mother Teresa.
But let's stick to Middle Earth as a "real" universe. We have an "official" version of what happened in the First Age. This official version is the Silmarillion. But revisionist later find that the history of one of the figures, in this case Gil-galad, is different than official canon. So some of us who are traditionalist accept the canon, but I can understand if other "heretics" say, hey look, this was not the original history; Gil-galad was son of Orodreth, not Fingon.
That is why Tolkien is so fun. We actually take his fictional world as real. Since I'm a traditionalist, I see Gil-galad as son of Fingon.
Imagine the debates at the council of Trent. They were actually debating what went into the "Bible." We are debating what goes into a fictional history.
At the least, we can say, unlike religion, Tolkien's mythology has not started any real wars :)
Might makes Right!
|
|
|
Maciliel
Valinor
Feb 16 2015, 2:39am
Post #20 of 69
(1275 views)
Shortcut
|
well... just to say... your use of the word "heretic" has denotations that you may or may not wish to invoke -- that those who consider christopher's correction as "trump" are wayward and in need of correction themselves.
i think i do understand what you are trying to say, however. but i would argue that someone who is a "traditionalist' would listen to what christopher says about his self-professed mistake, and accept that gil-galad is orodreth's son.
cheers ; )
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
|
|
|
Konrad S
Lorien
Feb 16 2015, 5:18am
Post #21 of 69
(1266 views)
Shortcut
|
|
OKay now i know that Gil-galad was a evil rebel that take the throne from the heir of Fingolfin.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
He was Evil and taked the throne for he wanted it.
|
|
|
Elthir
Grey Havens
Feb 16 2015, 2:07pm
Post #22 of 69
(1254 views)
Shortcut
|
But let's stick to Middle Earth as a "real" universe. We have an "official" version of what happened in the First Age. This official version is the Silmarillion. But revisionist later find that the history of one of the figures, in this case Gil-galad, is different than official canon. So some of us who are traditionalist accept the canon, but I can understand if other "heretics" say, hey look, this was not the original history; Gil-galad was son of Orodreth, not Fingon.
But we don't have an official version of the Silmarillion in the first place. You're putting that stamp on it, where even Christopher Tolkien does not. Same with the constructed version of The Children of Hurin.
So why do the constructed versions exist? I think that the constructed versions serve as a "reader's experience": they deliver the impact of reading a book, to put it simply. This was the intended presentation in general, as obviously Tolkien did not intend to publish a scholarly look at a mix of his unfinished Silmarillion writings, written at different times in his life.
The impact of reading the constructed Children of Hurin was very different, for me, than reading the various sections in HM and UT with scholarly commentary, however enlightening the experience was, and "partially" like reading a story, at times.
I would also add that I think Gil-galad as the son of Fingon is not a hindrance to the book experience of The Silmarillion. For what that's worth however, as that doesn't make the idea official and it remains an author-rejected idea (again as far as anyone can know).
I note that CJRT (essentially) suggests that if he could go back back in time for the constructed version, he would simply have left Gil-galad's parentage obscure (one family tree in the constructed The Children of Hurin might be interesting here)
CJRT knew he was not going to be able to incorporate every "last known" idea of his father's into the constructed version, and knowingly did not. My guess is that the reason he himself suggests that he made a "mistake' here, is because he feels, in his opinion, that he could have left the matter vague...
... thus, while not necessarily incorporating the late revision (Arothir and so on, which in turn would arguably "force" him into other revisions of certain passages he intended to employ, passages that were written with another idea in mind), in this case he felt he need not have incorporated a superseded idea.
I mean, I can't speak to his motivations or explanations obviously, so I'll emphasize that that's my guess given this scenario.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Feb 16 2015, 2:19pm)
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Feb 16 2015, 2:58pm
Post #23 of 69
(1241 views)
Shortcut
|
The trouble with post-mortem revisions is we don't know if they represent the final thoughts of the author if they were not actual edits he made to a manuscript intended for publication. If he had lived longer, he might have changed his mind again.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
Elthir
Grey Havens
Feb 16 2015, 3:57pm
Post #24 of 69
(1235 views)
Shortcut
|
... if you are agreeing or disagreeing with something I said, or just adding something, but anyway I'll emphasize "as far as anyone can know".
If JRRT had lived longer he might have done a lot of things with respect to a lot of Silmarillion material, material that we often enough seem to take as a given in these conversations, or treat as internally "true". As I say, even drastic changes were still open to JRRT, given relatively little about the Elder Days being already in print...
... but now JRRT has passed on and we are left with what he did do, at least, or the "evidence" that we are aware of to date, about which there will be subjective opinions, no doubt. But if one revises Y for Z at a date after Y was "true", then in my opinion that alone is compelling evidence with respect to dealing with something that on the whole was never published by its creator...
... cue the previously unknown letter dated 1970 in which Gil-galad son of Fingon arises again.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Feb 16 2015, 4:09pm)
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Feb 16 2015, 4:14pm
Post #25 of 69
(1226 views)
Shortcut
|
It is hard to tell sometimes what Tolkien's final thoughts would have been on some subjects unless he was adamant on changes he would have made to the existing legendarium. This is made even worse with The Silmarillion which was not published at all until after his death. I actually do trust your specific comments, though, on the parentage of Gil-galad. I regret not makining that clear.
Along these lines, there are still inconsistancies between The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings that would have been easy to correct without a major revision. Among those are the birth-order of Fili and Kili, and the date of the disappearance of Thorin's father Thrain (if Thrain had gone away on the twenty-first of April then the day of the week would have had to have been a Friday in Shire Reckoning, not a Thursday). And if we look at the lunar phases combined with the Shire calandar we can easily come up with the twenty-second of Winterfilth (October) for Durin's Day (no actual revision needed).
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
|
|
1
