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*** 'The Fellowship of the Ring' ch. 10A, 'Strider' - Regarding Strider
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Feb 22 2015, 3:39am

Post #51 of 57 (474 views)
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As I've said elsewhere [In reply to] Can't Post

I get the feeling that Aragorn and Faramir are two sides of a coin: the high and noble leader of men, and the soldier's soldier. One must conduct high diplomacy and remain a powerful authority figure, the other earns the love and respect of their men in battle, and keeps the men firmly attached to himself, and the state leader by proxy.

Not one is better, but they simply play separate roles and must fit them. Aragonr must seem aloof and not too familiar, leading by law-- the price of power?-- and Faramir has the freedom to be a practical leader for men and lead by example.

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Feb 22 2015, 3:42am

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*Snickering as I picture a Ranger trying to hide with a spear behind a bush* [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree that this company is an exception to the rule in the case of armament. I'm thinking that these rangers were not dissimilar from Faramir's company in Ithilien. Their purposes were much the same, if only acting in a less localised manner with no formal Base of Operation.

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Feb 22 2015, 3:43am

Post #53 of 57 (477 views)
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Maybe he means by 'Hobbit standards'? [In reply to] Can't Post

He might be testing them to see how far their resolve will carry them, deprived of familiar comforts of food.

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Feb 22 2015, 4:09am

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Answers [In reply to] Can't Post

(*) Frodo, Sam, and Pippin return from the common-room to their parlor. We learn soon after that Strider "came with" the Hobbits, and they never noticed. What does this tell you about him? Why do you think he decided to startle the Hobbits in this way?

He seems very much the wary Ranger, not a Warrior to run into danger, so he might naturally hang back from a group and be distrustful.

I think he might even be imagined to have some trust issues. He has been hiding his identity and lineage for decades now. How hard might it be for him to shake off the protective mystique and shadows that have shielded him so far, to step into the light as a king-in-waiting, and into direct danger?

(*) Strider tells Frodo that he knows "too much, too many dark things". What things, do you have any theories? Is Tolkien just trying to make us more interested in or suspicious of this Strider character with these hints?

Too much for Frodo, is how I read this. He does not want to recount them for fear he may scare Frodo too much and discourage him from moving on. There is a reason no one expounded the identity of the Nazgul until all were safe in Rivendell.

(*) Strider reveals that he observed the hobbits speaking to Bombadil after the incident in the Barrow Downs and followed them into town. Why do you think he slipped over the gate rather than going in to the town in a more conventional manner?

Natural Ranger skills? He probbaly had to slip in and out regularly so no one in Bree could track him if they wanted to give report of his location to his enemies. Perhaps he was mistrusted by the Gate-keeper?

More likely, I think it is to prevent anyone from connecting the dots from two strage occurences happening on the same day. It doesn't take much for anyone to put together the facts that a Ranger and unusual group of Hobbits from the Shire came in on the same day. Up 'til now, Aragorn doesn't know how long they'll be here, so he doesn't want to make it easy for anyone to locate him or connect him to the Hobbits.


(*) Strider speaks to the Hobbits of the Black Riders. "They are terrible!" he says, and we see "his face was drawn as if with pain, and his hands clenched the arms of his chair". We learn later in the book what they are, and we meet them and they are indeed terrible - but has Strider personal experience of them? How? Or is it just his knowledge of what they are that affects him, when he dwells on it, and this is included here to add to our growing conviction these guys are Bad News?

My first reaction is to recall Trotter's torture from the drafts of HoME, but seeing others' explanations, I could see either of them fitting the tale. In any case, this establishes Strider's worth to Frodo--he knows more than any of the Hobbits do, and the barest hint that he just might have escaped them before is left to be inferred...

(*) Sador asked in last week's discussion (jumping ahead into my chapter!! Wink) what the meaning of Frodo's observation "You began to talk to me like the Bree-folk, but your voice has changed" was. As she explained, in earlier drafts of the novel this was true of Trotter, a mysterious Hobbit met in the inn who was actually a Hobbit of the Shire. I had an opinion as to what this means now that Trotter is Strider, and a Man, that I decided to save for my discussion. But first, what do you think?

Well, I see this as perhaps meaning that he has dropped his guise of a simple Ranger/Rogue-type, and is established as an ally and friend to Frodo. He stands out now from the rest and the hint of his experiences beyond Bree have changed his manner of speech-- the natural one revealed now that he is less guarded.

(*) Gandalf's letter to Frodo includes a verse that Strider tells us goes with his true name.

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
The crownless again shall be king."

This is one of my favorite Tolkien poems! Do you like it, why or why not?

Certainly the most memorable. I too skipped poetry, but not this since it was so short and incorporated in the plot. The rest of the songs seem like they serve the function of a filmic 'travel montage' int the book--to fill paper and mark the lapse of time.

(*) The Sword that was Broken - Aragorn reveals it, and his true name, after reciting the first lines of the poem. It serves as a proof of identity (as it is a fairly unlikely item for a random imposter to have, and is explicitly referenced in the rest of the poem that is in Gandalf's letter, that Strider has not been shown). Is this why he shows it? Does this action have any other meaning or purpose?

I'm not sure how well this supposition holds up, but maybe this 'broken sword' is a later addition to the tale? Made only to foreshadow Aragorn's exalted but hidden status? It fits into the plot well, but it seems that the tale could work well enough without it.

Tolkien Blasphemy, I know!

It ties in well to the poem, and I don't mean to omit the plot element of 'sword' entirely, but it doesn't have to be brought up 'here', in Bree. Brought up later, we could have an 'Ah-ha' moment where Aragorn recieves the sword and we say: 'So that is it!' Then we could have the history of the blade explained at its presentation.

Thoughts?

(*) OK, a point that confuses me. Strider explains why he did not immediately reveal himself as Gandalf's friend and Aragorn. "I did not intend to tell you all about myself at once. I had to study *you* first, and make sure of you. The Enemy has set traps for me before now." Strider's general wariness of the Enemy's traps makes sense to me, but in this instance it strikes me that the plot would have to have been of a convolutedness that makes my head spin. Aragorn observed Tom and these hobbits from hiding and heard their entire parting conversation. So he knows these hobbits detoured through the Old Forest, and are avoiding Black Riders. And that one is named Baggins, and is travelling more or less when Strider was told by Gandalf, he would be... For this to be a trap, it seems to me, Tom would need to be in on it, and they all would need somehow to be aware that Strider was watching and listening. Am I missing something?

I'm just as confused, now that you mention it. I see two possible scenarios:

One, Sauron in tricksy, precious. This view plays to the fact that Sauron is able to create illusions and traps of a diabloical level of depth and deception. Perhaps he has been almost snared earlier?

Two, Aragorn's importance is shown. Aragorn knows how important he is, and (not to brag, but) as the last descendant of Elendil he's going to make sure he keeps himself safe. So he always looks both ways before he crosses the street, and never takes lembas from a stranger. Now, we the reader don't know this yet, so he just seems suspicious for not reason.


Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Feb 22 2015, 4:17am

Post #55 of 57 (499 views)
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Oh, we could go on and on... [In reply to] Can't Post

There are so many reasons that heroes should not be taken literally...

Prince appealing to unfavouring King for his daughter's hand:

Prince: I'd die for her!

King: Oh, really???

*kills him*

King: Looks like you got your wish!

I know...I'm morbid...Unsure

Any other examples of non-literal pledges made by famous heroes?

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Darkstone
Immortal


Feb 23 2015, 7:39pm

Post #56 of 57 (472 views)
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Tiptoe Through the Nazgul [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm the lady in red
Can't ya look in my eyes and see I wanta be led
Don't be so yeller, hey feller
How's about a kiss or two?

Oh, ya heard what I said
Come on and get close to me and you'll get ahead
Don't you say no sir, 'cause oh sir
I have set my eye on you

Why, lookee here, don't be so nervous, I ain't gonna bite ya
Ooh, honybunch, I could just love you to death
Don't be so nervous, just hold your seat and sit tight
And I'll hug ya and I'll squeeze ya till you're plum out of breath.

-Mort Dixon, The Lady in Red (1935)


(*) Frodo, Sam, and Pippin return from the common-room to their parlor. We learn soon after that Strider "came with" the Hobbits, and they never noticed. What does this tell you about him?

Quiet good-guy ranger, or sneaky bad-guy ninja?


Why do you think he decided to startle the Hobbits in this way?

Advertising his skills.

Plus amply demonstrating, as he puts it later, ’And I should have killed you already without so much talk. If I was after the Ring, I could have it – NOW!'


(*) Strider tells Frodo that he knows "too much, too many dark things".

I sure do, and I’m 62 next month. He’s 87!


What things, do you have any theories?

After his trip to the environs of Mordor it was his trip back with Gollum ’I deemed it the worst part of all my journey’’for he stank.'

That’s some serious B.O.!!


Is Tolkien just trying to make us more interested in or suspicious of this Strider character with these hints?

Strider seems to be really trying to ingratiate himself with the hobbits.

Aragorn seems to be a lot more distant, virtually ignoring the hobbits after the Ford, leaving Frodo for the last on the descent from Caradhras, and absolutely forgetting all about the wounded Frodo and Sam during the flight from Moria to the outskirts of Lothlorien.


(*) Strider reveals that he observed the hobbits speaking to Bombadil after the incident in the Barrow Downs and followed them into town. Why do you think he slipped over the gate rather than going in to the town in a more conventional manner?

Probably because no one saw him leave in the first place?


(*) Strider speaks to the Hobbits of the Black Riders. "They are terrible!" he says, and we see "his face was drawn as if with pain, and his hands clenched the arms of his chair". We learn later in the book what they are, and we meet them and they are indeed terrible - but has Strider personal experience of them?

I guess when he ’tread the deadly flowers of Morgul Vale’, but that’s an awfully peculiar nickname to call the Nazgul.


How?

If they were the flowers then Aragorn was the bee?


Or is it just his knowledge of what they are that affects him, when he dwells on it, and this is included here to add to our growing conviction these guys are Bad News?

”The Enemy has set traps for me before now.”

One can readily imagine many of his closest Dunedain friends falling victim to those traps that were meant for him. No doubt why he now travels alone.


(*) Sador asked in last week's discussion (jumping ahead into my chapter!! ) what the meaning of Frodo's observation "You began to talk to me like the Bree-folk, but your voice has changed" was. As she explained, in earlier drafts of the novel this was true of Trotter, a mysterious Hobbit met in the inn who was actually a Hobbit of the Shire. I had an opinion as to what this means now that Trotter is Strider, and a Man, that I decided to save for my discussion. But first, what do you think?

It’s not just different languages experienced travelers may learn but different dialects and accents. I’d guess Bree has its own accent and one can only imagine how a Rivendell-Dunedain accent sounds when speaking Westron.


(*) Gandalf's letter to Frodo includes a verse that Strider tells us goes with his true name.

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
The crownless again shall be king."

This is one of my favorite Tolkien poems! Do you like it, why or why not?


It’s nice. Seems to need to be engraved somewhere.

Of course when I read “Not all those who wander are lost” I want to add “but that’s the way to bet.”


(*) The Sword that was Broken - Aragorn reveals it, and his true name, after reciting the first lines of the poem. It serves as a proof of identity (as it is a fairly unlikely item for a random imposter to have, and is explicitly referenced in the rest of the poem that is in Gandalf's letter, that Strider has not been shown). Is this why he shows it?

It does seem a physical bonafide, except of course really anyone can break a sword and pass it off as being the one in the poem.


Does this action have any other meaning or purpose?

See Chekov’s Sword.


(*) OK, a point that confuses me. Strider explains why he did not immediately reveal himself as Gandalf's friend and Aragorn. "I did not intend to tell you all about myself at once. I had to study *you* first, and make sure of you. The Enemy has set traps for me before now." Strider's general wariness of the Enemy's traps makes sense to me, but in this instance it strikes me that the plot would have to have been of a convolutedness that makes my head spin.

Well, over the past 87 years I’m sure the Enemy has tried all sorts of simple, moderate, and complex plans and failed, so logically “convoluted enough to make your head spin” would seem to be the next thing to try.


Aragorn observed Tom…

What does Tom *really* look like? Hobbity to hobbits? Mannish to Men? Dunedain-y to Dunedains?


and these hobbits from hiding and heard their entire parting conversation.

Somehow I’m reminded of CONTROL agent Maxwell Smart talking loudly into a KAOS microphone hidden in a flower pot. Except it was the wrong flower pot.


So he knows these hobbits detoured through the Old Forest,….

But are they the same hobbits who entered the Old Forest or are those hobbits now plant food? And if Nazgul can disguise themselves as Men, how about as Hobbits?


…and are avoiding Black Riders.

But Merry later goes out and meets one! Coincidence? I think not!!! "Merry" is actually getting additional instructions!!


And that one is named Baggins,…

He also calls himself “Underhill”. Exactly how many other aliases does he have? Probably had passports from Gondor, Rohan, Erebor, and Lothlorien hidden in a false bottom in his suitcase, if he had a suitcase, which he probably does, hidden under his cloak, along with a standard issue M- (for "Mordor") 3 sniper infrared carbine that THRUSH later copied.


…and is travelling more or less when Strider was told by Gandalf, he would be.

And Gandalf is missing! Was he captured by the Enemy? Did they make him talk? Do they now know the route? And that Strider, their prey for all these years, will now be waiting for "Baggins" aka "Underhill" aka "Matty Harry"?


For this to be a trap, it seems to me, Tom would need to be in on it,…

If that indeed is Tom. Like I said, exactly what does Tom look like? What can he look like? What can’t he look like? Anyone ever see Tom and Sauron at the same time in the same place?


and they all would need somehow to be aware that Strider was watching and listening.

Old Man Willow, "master of winds", can hear from "the Hedge to the Downs":

But none were more dangerous than the Great Willow: his heart was rotten, but his strength was green; and he was cunning, and a master of winds, and his song and thought ran through the woods on both sides of the river. His grey thirsty spirit drew power out of the earth and spread like fine root-threads in the ground, and invisible twig-fingers in the air, till it had under its dominion nearly all the trees of the Forest from the Hedge to the Downs.

You don’t think Old Man Willow would fink out Strider in a heartbeat?


Am I missing something?

Probably not. It’s an obvious plot hole by Tolkien.


(*) What he then says I like better. "But I must admit" he added with a queer laugh, "that I hoped you would take to me for my own sake. A hunted man sometimes wearies of distrust and longs for friendship."

And that’s exactly how a hunted man is usually caught!

(See John Dillinger and The Woman in Red.)


Are there any indications elsewhere in the chapter that support (or contradict) this explanation?

I do find it odd that his friendship for the hobbits seems to wane after they get to Rivendell.

******************************************
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a wonderful town!!!
Mount Doom blew up,
And the Black Tower's down!!
The orcs all fell in a hole in the ground!
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a heckuva town!!!

-Lord of the Rings: The Musical, music by Leonard Bernstein, lyrics by Betty Comden and Adolph Green


sador
Half-elven


Feb 25 2015, 8:58am

Post #57 of 57 (455 views)
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Trying to return to normal. [In reply to] Can't Post

Frodo, Sam, and Pippin return from the common-room to their parlor. We learn soon after that Strider "came with" the Hobbits, and they never noticed.
Inebriated? Or just focused on themselves, after the fiasco at the Common Room?

What does this tell you about him?

Quote

...though I cannot disappear, I have hunted many wild and wary things and I can usually avoid being seen, if I wish.

Showing before telling.

Why do you think he decided to startle the Hobbits in this way?
To impress theur helplessness upon them?
But it's probably just his quite ways; I don't think he really bothered hiding.

Strider tells Frodo that he knows "too much, too many dark things". What things, do you have any theories?

*whistling, stopping self from quoting The Walrus and the Carpenter again*

Is Tolkien just trying to make us more interested in or suspicious of this Strider character with these hints?
At the moment - everybody knows dark things the hobbits don't. It's just that they are so green.
And if you read this chapter immediately after the preceding one - well, that one ended with Frodo beginning to suspect even Butterbur of nefarious secrets. An echo?

Strider reveals that he observed the hobbits speaking to Bombadil after the incident in the Barrow Downs and followed them into town. Why do you think he slipped over the gate rather than going in to the town in a more conventional manner?

Was it him indeed? We've discussed that in the previous chapter.
But he might have been trying to avoid Harry's attention; or to attract the hobbits'. If Sam looked back when on Buckleberry Ferry, why doesn't he now?

We learn later in the book what they are, and we meet them and they are indeed terrible - but has Strider personal experience of them? How?

Well, this is a 'fossil' of the idea that Trotter was taken captive and tortured by them before.

Or is it just his knowledge of what they are that affects him, when he dwells on it, and this is included here to add to our growing conviction these guys are Bad News?
Strider is trying to impress on the hobbits, and the reader, that he is an Authority about the Black Riders. He does succeed - at least as far as most readers are concerned.
But Gandalf did say, back in Bag End, that it has been a long time since they walked abroad. Strider has indeed been in the Morgul Vale (he claims so at the Council), but Frodo believes he had never been in Mordor itself (The Black Gate is Closed), and I doubt he has enough knowledge to guess correctly what they might do in Eriador.

Sador asked in last week's discussion... As she explained

Is that a compliment?
At least I didn't need to ask my wife to photograph me for it, as other TORnsibs did.

what do you think?
Mel_Blanc should have been casted as Strider, but died too soon.

Gandalf's letter to Frodo includes a verse that Strider tells us goes with his true name.

I haven't the book with me, but IIRC they go with the name 'Strider'

This is one of my favorite Tolkien poems! Do you like it, why or why not?

I used to like it a lot (just now, I've checked if I still could recite it by heart - and only was unsure about 'ashes', thinking it might be 'embers'). By now, it usually doesn't surprise me anymore.
I also used to be more impressed with technical sides of poetry (rhythm, rhyming) than I am today. Technically, this poem is superb. But I would have liked the imagery of the second part to somehow echo that of the first, which they don't.

Is this why he shows it?
Well, he did not read Gandalf's letter; and if Bilbo composed these verses in Rivendell - how could he guess that Frodo knows them?

Does this action have any other meaning or purpose?
Swearing.

OK, a point that confuses me... For this to be a trap, it seems to me, Tom would need to be in on it, and they all would need somehow to be aware that Strider was watching and listening. Am I missing something?
I agree. This doesn't work.

"But I must admit" he added with a queer laugh, "that I hoped you would take to me for my own sake. A hunted man sometimes wearies of distrust and longs for friendship." Are there any indications elsewhere in the chapter that support (or contradict) this explanation?
In this chapter? Not that I remember.
But I must cite Curious on this.


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