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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
In Re to Azog
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lionoferebor
Rohan

Feb 13 2015, 5:31pm

Post #1 of 202 (1643 views)
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     In Re to Azog  

This has bothered me for a while, but why would Thorin believe that Azog died from having his arm cut off? Did it never occur to him that Azog may have survived his wound? Yes loosing a limb is serious and you can bleed to death from it, but it's not an automatic death sentence.

Also, after having healed, why does Azog wait until Thirin hoes on the quest to hunt him down? I know Gandalf says in BOTFA that he's emerged because Thorin is trying to take back the Mountain, but according to Balin Azog had vowed to wipe out the Line of Durin long before the quest. So why wait?

Any thoughts?


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Feb 13 2015, 5:57pm

Post #2 of 202 (1177 views)
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     Well... [In reply to]  

Medical care would have been crude, at best, among the Orcs. And a maimed Orc would be likely to be killed as weak, so I can see why Thorin would have thought that Azog had died. Besides all that, I think that Thorin wanted Azog to be dead so badly that he was in denial that the Pale Orc could have survived.

As for why Azog waits 40 years before he seeks revenge, it might be because he couldn't reach Thorin in the Blue Mountains of Eriador. He and his Hunters might have been able to pass through the Lone-lands in relative safety, but the farther west he went the more likely it was that he would encounter Dunedain Rangers or a company of high-elves like the brothers Elladan and Elrohir.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Feb 13 2015, 5:59pm)


Konrad S
Lorien

Feb 13 2015, 6:03pm

Post #3 of 202 (1121 views)
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     Answear [In reply to]  

I think he hated Azog so much so that he wished he was dead. Hoped and told himself he is dead! and said to the others, he is dead! He may have deep inside himself knew that Azog perhaps survived, but told himself that he was dead. Ps you can probably die of getting youarm chopped off and maybe Thorin thought that Azog was dead bechause he had not seen azog for so long.


Konrad S
Lorien

Feb 13 2015, 6:05pm

Post #4 of 202 (1102 views)
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     Oh now I might imitate you a bit but I start write my reply before i saw your. [In reply to]  

 


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Feb 13 2015, 6:33pm

Post #5 of 202 (1102 views)
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     I think we see that in AUJ. [In reply to]  

The look between Balin and Gandalf is very telling, as Thorin angrily shuts down any question of whether he succeeded in his vengeance. An early sniff of Thorin's pride and a little fear of failure in there too, for me.


Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 13 2015, 6:52pm

Post #6 of 202 (1067 views)
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     Well said. I agree. // [In reply to]  


In Reply To
The look between Balin and Gandalf is very telling, as Thorin angrily shuts down any question of whether he succeeded in his vengeance. An early sniff of Thorin's pride and a little fear of failure in there too, for me.









pettytyrant101
Lorien


Feb 13 2015, 7:39pm

Post #7 of 202 (1094 views)
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     That doesnt explain why [In reply to]  

if Azog was waiting on the chance to go after Thorin he left Thorin completely alone to go off and search for Thrain, which Thorin tells Gandalf he did. That would have been the perfect time to go after him.

"A lot of our heroes depress me. But when they made this particular hero they didn't give him a gun, they gave him a screwdriver so he could fix things. They didn't give him a tank, or a warship, or an x-wing fighter, they gave him a call box from which you can call for help. And they didn't give him a superpower, or pointy ears or a heat ray, they gave him an extra heart. And that's an extraordinary thing.
There will never come a time when we don't need a hero like the Doctor."- Steven Moffat


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Feb 13 2015, 7:45pm

Post #8 of 202 (1078 views)
Shortcut
     Opportunity [In reply to]  


In Reply To
if Azog was waiting on the chance to go after Thorin he left Thorin completely alone to go off and search for Thrain, which Thorin tells Gandalf he did. That would have been the perfect time to go after him.



After the battle, Azog needed to recover and lost track of Thorin. Both Thorin and his father are of the Line of Durin, so Thrain is just as valid as a target. Plus capturing Thrain adds to the son's anquish.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


pettytyrant101
Lorien


Feb 13 2015, 7:49pm

Post #9 of 202 (1071 views)
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     We are not given enough information [In reply to]  

to know how long after Thrain went missing Thorin went looking for him.
But as Azog is so close to Sauron should he not have known where Thrain was and therefore where Throin was likely to go looking for him? If Azog just wanted to wipe out Thrain and Thorin using Thrain as the bait would be an excellent way of doing so rather than a failry ludicrous attempt to chase him all over ME centuries later.

"A lot of our heroes depress me. But when they made this particular hero they didn't give him a gun, they gave him a screwdriver so he could fix things. They didn't give him a tank, or a warship, or an x-wing fighter, they gave him a call box from which you can call for help. And they didn't give him a superpower, or pointy ears or a heat ray, they gave him an extra heart. And that's an extraordinary thing.
There will never come a time when we don't need a hero like the Doctor."- Steven Moffat


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Feb 13 2015, 7:58pm

Post #10 of 202 (1053 views)
Shortcut
     Azog and Thrain [In reply to]  


In Reply To
to know how long after Thrain went missing Thorin went looking for him.
But as Azog is so close to Sauron should he not have known where Thrain was and therefore where Throin was likely to go looking for him? If Azog just wanted to wipe out Thrain and Thorin using Thrain as the bait would be an excellent way of doing so rather than a failry ludicrous attempt to chase him all over ME centuries later.



Well, almost one and a half centuries anyway. For all we know Azog found Thrain again soon after and brought him to Dol Guldur. If Azog really wanted to use Thrain as bait then he would have found a way to let Thorin know that his father was in southern Mirkwood. It seems it was enough for him to keep Thorin guessing.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Feb 13 2015, 7:59pm

Post #11 of 202 (1069 views)
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     the two questions are connected [In reply to]  

He thought Azog was dead because he was dead. It took so long for As of to start chasing Thorin because it took that long for Sauron to regenerate him.

Tongue

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Feb 13 2015, 8:01pm

Post #12 of 202 (1048 views)
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     Necromancer or not. [In reply to]  


In Reply To
He thought Azog was dead because he was dead. It took so long for As of to start chasing Thorin because it took that long for Sauron to regenerate him.

Tongue



I'm not touching that one! But I think that Gandalf and Balin were of a different opinion.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


pettytyrant101
Lorien


Feb 13 2015, 8:07pm

Post #13 of 202 (1043 views)
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     Yes, he would have, [In reply to]  

and yet he doesn't. Not even when Thorin is, probably with limited protection, scouring around the land looking for Thrain.
Its not like Azog of the films is portrayed as the patient thinking sort- book Azog yes, he is capable of complete thoughts and sentences, but grunty brutal film Azog does not come across that way at all.
Yet we are expected to believe that despite having a huge grudge against Thorin and a desire for revenge he just didn't bother doing anything about it for 200 years or whatever it is in the films, just because.

In fact the only reason I can think of for why he waits until the events of the Hobbit is because they wanted him in the film, so an external contrived reason, not an internal story driven one. Internally it doesn't actually seem to make any sense. But that goes for a lot of the changes in these films when you scrutinise them.

"A lot of our heroes depress me. But when they made this particular hero they didn't give him a gun, they gave him a screwdriver so he could fix things. They didn't give him a tank, or a warship, or an x-wing fighter, they gave him a call box from which you can call for help. And they didn't give him a superpower, or pointy ears or a heat ray, they gave him an extra heart. And that's an extraordinary thing.
There will never come a time when we don't need a hero like the Doctor."- Steven Moffat


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Feb 13 2015, 8:27pm

Post #14 of 202 (1034 views)
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     140 years [In reply to]  

The Battle of Moria was in TA 2799. Gandalf located Thorin in Bree (in the films) in July of 2939 (they met on March 15, 2941 according to Tolkien).

But remember that Azog's 'grudge' was not just against Thorin but against his entire House. The probable reason was that it was Thorin's grandfather Thror who brought the Dwarves to Gundabad. Also, the Dwarves believed that Durin first awoke at the site of Mount Gundabad, so rivalry over the site went back many generations.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Feb 13 2015, 8:28pm)


pettytyrant101
Lorien


Feb 13 2015, 8:30pm

Post #15 of 202 (1031 views)
Shortcut
     None of which information [In reply to]  

is in the films.
And I believe you have to take the films on their own merits, if you have to bring book knowledge the films make no reference to in as a an excuse to explain plot points there is problem with the film in my view.

"A lot of our heroes depress me. But when they made this particular hero they didn't give him a gun, they gave him a screwdriver so he could fix things. They didn't give him a tank, or a warship, or an x-wing fighter, they gave him a call box from which you can call for help. And they didn't give him a superpower, or pointy ears or a heat ray, they gave him an extra heart. And that's an extraordinary thing.
There will never come a time when we don't need a hero like the Doctor."- Steven Moffat


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Feb 13 2015, 8:34pm

Post #16 of 202 (1027 views)
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     The dates are confirmed. [In reply to]  

We know the year of the Quest of Erebor is TA 2940 because Jackson altered the year of Bilbo's farewell party to 3000 (as indicated in LotR:FotR-EE) and there is a difference of 60 years. Gandalf located Thorin in July of the previous year.

We know the date of the Battle of Moria (Azanulbizar) from the TH:DoS Appendices. Plus it matches the date indicated by Tolkien.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Feb 13 2015, 8:35pm)


pettytyrant101
Lorien


Feb 13 2015, 8:40pm

Post #17 of 202 (1015 views)
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     But we know nothing [In reply to]  

about Thror, the dwarvish belief about where they were created or any of that- and I dont include information only given in appendices to films as part of the films- not unless they show it in cinemas too.

Also if your plot requires your audience to calculate and juggle dates given in films and appendices spanning more than a decade just to make sense out of it then thats not good writing either in my view.

"A lot of our heroes depress me. But when they made this particular hero they didn't give him a gun, they gave him a screwdriver so he could fix things. They didn't give him a tank, or a warship, or an x-wing fighter, they gave him a call box from which you can call for help. And they didn't give him a superpower, or pointy ears or a heat ray, they gave him an extra heart. And that's an extraordinary thing.
There will never come a time when we don't need a hero like the Doctor."- Steven Moffat


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Feb 13 2015, 8:46pm

Post #18 of 202 (1010 views)
Shortcut
     Yeah. [In reply to]  


In Reply To
about Thror, the dwarvish belief about where they were created or any of that- and I dont include information only given in appendices to films as part of the films- not unless they show it in cinemas too.



I'll grant you, that last could be seen as a bit of a cheat. Peter could have flashed the year up on the screen. The bit about Durin and Gundabad I only mention as useful background.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Feb 13 2015, 9:55pm

Post #19 of 202 (998 views)
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     I feel like I'm missing something [In reply to]  

But how would Azog know where Thorin was or that he was looking for Thrain and where he was looking for Thrain?


pettytyrant101
Lorien


Feb 13 2015, 10:35pm

Post #20 of 202 (971 views)
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     How does Azog know [In reply to]  

that Thorin is setting off to Erebor?
We have to presume he has a watch looking out for him, as even the goblins of the mountains in the films have orders to inform him.

I find it hard to believe Azog, after 150 years or however long its been only decides to set out a watch for Thorin right before Thorin sets out. If Azog has been harbouring a grudge a chance should have arisen before now or has Thorin just been hiding for 150 years in the Blue Mountains, he doesn't seem the hiding away sort- and the Blue Mountains are a working mine whose workers often travel to sell goods- which is why dwarves are not an uncommon sight on the roads through the Shire on their way to the Blue Mountains.
I find it unlikely in all that time Thorin didn't leave the mountains to do other stuff, such as staying in touch with other Dwarven lines such as Dain in the Iron Hills.
And in fact we know he left to go look for Thrain. I see know reason to assume he would not have gone out otherwise too, as after all Thorin saw or knew of no threat to his person and believed Azog dead anyway, so why would he hide away?

It makes more sense to assume Azog has been keeping an eye out for Thorin for some time and any opportunity to go after him. Its just sadly that logic doesn't fit whats in the films.

Thorin wandering about Moria, Mirkwood or anywhere else for any length of time would surely have got back to Azog. Thorin would have had to cross the mountains to go to Mirkwood, or to the mountains to check out Moria if he investigated there- either place is land he would be espied in.

That means we have to assume Azog wasn't looking for him until right before Thorin decided to go to Erebor- and thats a hell of a coincidence.
It also undermines Azogs seeming hatred and grudge against Thorin and his line for the loss of his arm and the battle if he just sat about for 150 years doing nothing whilst Thorin wandered about the place unhindered or challenged.
What was going on- Azog the mellow years?

"A lot of our heroes depress me. But when they made this particular hero they didn't give him a gun, they gave him a screwdriver so he could fix things. They didn't give him a tank, or a warship, or an x-wing fighter, they gave him a call box from which you can call for help. And they didn't give him a superpower, or pointy ears or a heat ray, they gave him an extra heart. And that's an extraordinary thing.
There will never come a time when we don't need a hero like the Doctor."- Steven Moffat


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Feb 13 2015, 10:52pm

Post #21 of 202 (964 views)
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     Azog-movieverse [In reply to]  

I don't think we are given a clear number of years between the battle of Moria and the start of the Quest (personally, I do not find 150 seems like the right number based solely on what is said in the films...)

But as for what he might have been doing - Balin's narration of the battle suggests Azog was newly arrived to Moria, not its long-time ruler. ("But our enemy had got there first. Azog...") He then suffered a partial defeat, and a major injury. After all this, I think it took him time to solidify his rule/influence over the Misty Mountains. A time during which (we learn in DoS) he appears to have also wiped out Beorn's people. At some point he also came under the influence in Sauron in Dol Guldur, and if Sauron shared with him his long term vision of the conquest of Erebor and a restored Kingdom of Angmar (with ekimination of Thorin as part of the plan) Azog may have been content to wait and let this play out Sauron's way.



Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Feb 13 2015, 10:57pm

Post #22 of 202 (955 views)
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     I always worry when I get a very long answer to a short question! [In reply to]  

There is a lot of supposition in here, which I'm not sure leads to any logical problems. But to potter through...

How he eventually finds Thorin is a different question and one to which we don't have a definitive answer. Personally I would assume Sauron pointed him in the right direction.

But we have no idea how long Azog has been looking. With the whole of ME to cover, I'm not sure why we would find them not crossing paths in any way unlikely.

The middle paragraphs contain so many assumptions that surely we can't possibly suggest they lead to a logical gap, can we? Who is it who would be chatting to Azog? Who has been sitting in the Misty Mountain passes for 150 years on the off chance Thorin wanders through? This is very odd.

I don't think that the task of finding a single dwarf anywhere in ME is so straightforward that there is any imposition to imagine that it would be instantaneous!


pettytyrant101
Lorien


Feb 13 2015, 11:16pm

Post #23 of 202 (947 views)
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     I dont think Azog would sit there [In reply to]  

thats my point.

The Azog we are presented with in the films has a real grudge against Thorin- this is set up in classic narrative fashion, first we are shown the cause of it, then we are shown Azog unrelenting pursuit of Thorin, even killing subordinates for any failure, then at the end of AUJ we get the personal confrontation between the two and of course in the final film we get the resoltution between them. We might know Azog wants to wipe out the LINE of Durin, but what the film presents us with is in fact a classic film personal conflict between the two.

Yet are we to believe Azog, ruler of Moria, sat for 150 year or whatever it is in the films, not bothered at all about Thorin, whilst Thorin may even have come to his very gates investigating Thrain?
Or gone wandering about near Mirkwood, with Dol Guldur, and the very area Azog has been active against the Beornings in movie verse and Azog never heard about it?

And as I pointed out Thorin has no reason to hide in the Blue Mountains for all that time, he would have traveled between there and the Iron Mountains at some point,where was he coming from or going to after all when he met Gandalf at Bree? He was at the Iron Mountains right before he went to Bag End when Dain refused to help him take on Smaug.
So we know he traveled about freely and even without escort.

We also know messages have been sent out to all the goblins to send Azog word if they see Thorin- why do it now when he has had 150 years to put that message out and Thorin's been wandering about freely and unguarded?

Does that seem at all consistent with the Azog we actually see in the films who has such a burning hatred and desire to kill Thorin?

"A lot of our heroes depress me. But when they made this particular hero they didn't give him a gun, they gave him a screwdriver so he could fix things. They didn't give him a tank, or a warship, or an x-wing fighter, they gave him a call box from which you can call for help. And they didn't give him a superpower, or pointy ears or a heat ray, they gave him an extra heart. And that's an extraordinary thing.
There will never come a time when we don't need a hero like the Doctor."- Steven Moffat


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Feb 13 2015, 11:28pm

Post #24 of 202 (935 views)
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     I don't see why we need to assume he sat there. [In reply to]  

Or that Thorin was in hiding. There is no reason to assume Azog has any idea where Thorin is in the whole of ME. There is no obvious reason why folks getting their horses shoed in the Blue Mountains would be passing info to an Orc warlord. Equally there is no reason for Azog to set a watch on the Misty Mountains (until he knows Thorin is about to cross them, of course).

Presumably, we can't even be sure that Azog knew Thorin had survived the battle outside Moria, to begin with.

I don't think the idea that one individual fails to find another individual in an entire world gets us to implausibility, let alone illogicality.


pettytyrant101
Lorien


Feb 13 2015, 11:52pm

Post #25 of 202 (929 views)
Shortcut
     I think [In reply to]  

if you are presented with a character with a personal grudge and a driving motivation against an individual, and when that individual is some one of great importance, fame and prestige, and when that person also leads a huge group of refugees to the Blue Mountains, Azog would know about it and that is where he went.

News travels, especially if you have a network of spies and messengers as the orcs clearly do in the films.
There also appears to be no other Rangers in the films, we dont see any in LotR's and in TH the orcs brazenly use Weathertop as a base of operations, a place frequented by Rangers in the book who leave supplies behind for other Rangers to use. So there is even less to prevent Azog getting information or his people moving more freely about.

I don't think its a stretch given the personal animosity we see in the films that Azog would have been interested in what had become of this person he hates so much and has vowed revenge on.

And if he wasnt looking out for Thorin during that time it again raises the question of, beyond movie making expediency, why does Azog suddenly decide to go after Throin just as the events of TH are starting? Why then? And why is he so full of hatred and desire for vengeance only from then on, why not before?

As you say there is no reason to assume Thorin has not been traveling plenty and long distances, to possibly Moira and Mirkwood and definitely to the Iron Hills, and we see him do so with no guard. It would have been much easier to get him when he was just wandering about. Either on his business or when investigating Thrain.

So what the films present us with is a Thorin who has been for the intervening years wandering about unprotected and even in lands controlled by Azog. And an Azog, who is a great ruler of orcs, with connections all the length of the Misty Mountains, and influence stretching out over the Beorning lands to Dol Guldur. And no Rangers to stop him having influence all the way to Bree where he has hired thugs waiting to kill Thorin, but we are meant to accept he has never even tried before now to find out anything about Thorin, or to look out for him? Given his temperament that doesn't seem likely to me.

So I still don't think Azogs actions or motivations add up in any narrative sense taken from the battle to the events of TH.

"A lot of our heroes depress me. But when they made this particular hero they didn't give him a gun, they gave him a screwdriver so he could fix things. They didn't give him a tank, or a warship, or an x-wing fighter, they gave him a call box from which you can call for help. And they didn't give him a superpower, or pointy ears or a heat ray, they gave him an extra heart. And that's an extraordinary thing.
There will never come a time when we don't need a hero like the Doctor."- Steven Moffat

(This post was edited by pettytyrant101 on Feb 13 2015, 11:54pm)

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