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Girdle of Melian
Lorien
Feb 13 2015, 8:41am
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Feanor & Galadriel - Why Save "Feanor" and Why "Maybe"
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According to Tolkien, they are the greatest of the Eldar in Valinor, and though Galadriel's feats are not as specificially mentioned in the books and many are vague, Tolkien implies they are almost equal in many ways, and not specific enough to say that Feanor is indeed greater. Now we know that Tolkien is quite inconsistent at times, or some attribute only Galadriel's greatness more on what she actually only accomplished in print, and some attribute traits to her more on wisdom and magical side because she's female (seen this again and again - meanwhile Feanor never gets this because he's a a "man."). For sure, Tolkien mentioned she is indeed wiser. Probably no one will ever doubt that Feanor will be a greater fighter or athlete than Galadriel, or craftsman, but how about when it comes the lore, songs, etc. - what do you think? Does Galadriel's tutelage with Melian be the unknown tipping factor that could have made her almost equal to him or maybe better of the two -- thoughts?
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Feb 13 2015, 7:23pm
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Fëonor was notably brilliant and creative, responsible not only for the Silmarils but possibly also the Palantíri. I'm not sure we know all that much about his athletic or fighting prowess. The main thing that distinguishes him, though, is his capacity for blinding rage and poor judgement.
Depending on which version you read, Galadriel either did or didn't participate in the kinslaying, but she did follow in the exodus from Valinor. Thereafter, though, she appears to have settled down, and her time with Melian must surely have been productive. Given that she went on to establish a stable and nurturing nation in Lórien and participated constructively in the War of the Ring, I think she gets the nod as "greatest" without question. Results count.
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Feb 13 2015, 7:23pm)
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Nerven
Rivendell
Feb 13 2015, 8:19pm
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Galadriel is really my favourite character, at the beginning I didnīt knowher backstory and was really impressed that she was hold in such high esteam by Tolkien.
I read somewhere that when Tolkien speaks of wisdom he doesnīt refer to the wisdom of heart but rahter to knowledge and intelligence. That makes more sense because Feanor was really not that wise (of heart) so thatīs not difficult to be wiser than him. I think he means knowledge and intelligence and in this aspect Galadriel atleast matches and later even surpasses him. It is even told in UT that she was "brilliant of mind".
I think her being the greatest (of the Noldor) doesnīt have primarily to do with what she learnt or did. I think Melian must have taught her a lot of interesting stuff, after all it is mentioned that the Valar taught the Eldar everything what they fought fits, I wonder what this might have been.
I think what makes both the geratest is the potential of their spirit, they are born with it, itīs nothing the elves can accomplish in life imo, humans for example are great if they have a really high IQ, I think with Galadriel and Feanor it is similar, he had the talent of doing amazing inventions she had the gift of reading hearts/telepathy.
Already in Valinor, in her youth, she was regarded as "great", I wonder what she did, besides being a match for the athlets and loremasters, I mean Feanor did all this amazing stuff with the language and the jewels. I find it strange that they were the greatest elves of Valinor, apparently greater than their kings, but it makes sense if their "greatness" is related to something inherent.
I think at the end she is the better of the two, she proved that she had a good heart, which is the most important.
I wonder how her reputation was when she returned to Valinor, would she in Valinor be among the greatest (or even THE greatest) or would there be other elves which surpass her in later ages, I canīt reallyimagine that, but who knows.
Another citation I really like is that:
Who together (Galadriel and Feanor) with the greatest of all the Eldar, Luthien Tinuviel, daughter of Elu Thingol, are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the Elves.
Some say that there would not really be much to talk about Galadriel, I actually donīt think so, there is so much to her character. There maybe wouldnīt be much talk about crazy adventures as with Luthien it is the case but rather about Galadriel as a person, who was really so confliced and complex, one could write a book about it.
(This post was edited by Nerven on Feb 13 2015, 8:27pm)
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squire
Half-elven
Feb 13 2015, 10:47pm
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I've never forgotten my surprise when I discovered (from reading History of Middle-earth, years after The Silmarillion) that Galadriel was added to the Silmarillion more than ten years after it was substantially completed.
Hey, she's one of the greatest Elves of the Third Age, and a "rebel" or "exile" to boot: redeemed and forgiven by the Valar in the end thanks to her forbearance in letting the One Ring alone -- or so we learn in The Lord of the Rings.
But it seems that Tolkien made her up from scratch for that story, as he did the Ents, the Wizards, Tom Bombadil, the Druedain, and hobbits to name some other remarkable additions to his burgeoning legendarium. We must imagine how he felt when he realized after the book was completed that Galadriel's absence from The Silmarillion was inexplicable and, going forward, intolerable.
So he wrote her in, with somewhat confusing results, as you note: Who were her parents? What did she do in the First Age? Why was she so great back then? Wouldn't she and Feanor be like an immovable object meeting an irresistible force? What evidence of her wisdom and skills could there be - that wouldn't completely upset the carefully crafted and fully written tale of the Silmarils and Feanor's fatal rebellion?
So thanks to the obscure and unpopular existence of HoME I finally was able to make sense of the vagueness of her appearances and utterances in The Sil (don't even mention Unfinished Tales!). And since then I've never looked back. Feanor is at the heart of the Silmarillion, and is the key actor among the Eldar in a way that Galadriel will never be. "Greatest" doesn't mean "nicest", so for all his flaws I vote Feanor over Galadriel, in a somewhat rambling answer to your question.
Though I will always have a soft spot in my heart for Luthien, that bad-ass Silmaril-snitching Devil-dancing Mandos-romancing babe of all Elven babes.
squire online:
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Mikah
Lorien
Feb 14 2015, 6:48am
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I am on the same page with you here Squire. "Nice" is probably not the adjective that I would use to describe Feanor, however "great" or "mighty" both fit him. He is an elf who inspired a rebellion of a whole people with the power of his words. He clearly held at least some influence over the Noldor at the time of the rebellion. Tolkien also described Feanor as being the mightiest in all parts of body and mind; valor, strength, and subtlety of mind of all of the children of Iluvatar. Unfortunately though we all know the saying "The bigger they are, the harder they fall." In Feanor's demise and fall from grace, this was indeed the case.
I had always taken it at face value that he was a very skilled fighter. I do not believe we know exactly how many Balrogs Feanor fought, but it was more than one and it took Gothmog to finally land the blow that would defeat Feanor. Feanor was a lot of things, but cowardly is not one of them. I kinda respect that about him.
Galadriel was certainly nicer and most definitely a more positive influence than Feanor, but I do not believe her accomplishments quite measure up to Feanor. For good or ill, Feanor set the stage for all of the events to come. If it were not for Feanor, we do not even know if the Noldor would have returned to Middle Earth. Let it be told though, I have always been partial to Feanor and Fingolfin.
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Girdle of Melian
Lorien
Feb 14 2015, 12:29pm
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Some things I wondered about how Galadriel was able to....
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Read/feel or get great insight on the minds of others...I mean she distrusted Annatar (who turned to be Sauron) and was even able to close her mind to him during the War of the Ring (maybe because he did not have the One Ring and his power was not as great).
And as far as fighting is concerned, this is the closest thing we have as specific word for fighting:
Even after the merciless assault upon the Telerin and the rape of their ships, though she fought fiercely against Feanor in the defense of her mother's kin, she did not turn back.~HoME XII, Late Writings
...I guess people can interpret this metaphorically, but if she of what Feanor was planning ahead of time, she could have warned the Teleri and they may have been able to avert or minimize the disaster the fell upon them. So, I only interpret this as taking up arms, and if she fought against Feanor fiercely...I'm not sure what that really means.........
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Feb 14 2015, 2:32pm
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You know this, I know, but for the sake of correctness I will note that unlike the other characters that you mentioned, Tom Bombadil was not created for The Lord of the Rings, but rather had existed outside of the mythology for a long time, having been created (along with Goldberry and Old Man Willow) in the poem "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil" and then inserted into the narrative when the Hobbit sequel got going.
I'm surprised to see you call HoMe's existence "unpopular". Certainly there are some people who don't like its existence (particularly Guy Kay), but in my experience most people who are aware of its existence appreciate getting an opportunity to look deeper at the nature of Tolkien's creation, particularly since The Silmarillion was never completed. I would be curious to hear more about why you consider the existence of HoMe "unpopular".
As for the topic of this thread, I largely agree with your comments about Galadriel, Feanor, and particularly Luthien (although of course I wouldn't know just how "bad-ass Silmaril-snitching Devil-dancing Mandos-romancing babe of all Elven babes" she was if it wasn't for the existence of HoMe!
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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squire
Half-elven
Feb 14 2015, 3:24pm
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My list of "new" characters or races in Tolkien's legendarium that appeared in The Lord of the Rings, including Tom B., was only intended to distinguish them from the heroic folk that Tolkien had already conceived of and included in Quenta Silmarillion by that time.
As you say, Tom already "existed", as of course did the hobbits and one wizard. However, we just had a good discussion about Tom here in the RR, during which I began to speculate that by the time the central chapter on Tom and Goldberry was finished, Tolkien had changed and enlarged Tom significantly rather than just inserting him from a previous tale. The same might be said for Gandalf and the hobbits. But the tales they all started from were not the Sil.
My reference to the 'unpopularity' of History of Middle-earth was a joke, probably in bad taste. A lot fewer fans have read from it than have read the two main Tolkien books on Middle-earth, much less The Silmarillion, so that one risks being intimidating when citing it in a casual discussion forum like this.
HoME certainly enhances Luthien's hell-raising babe qualities, as you say, but the basics are all in the published Silmarillion, which was the starting point for the original question of who was greater, Feanor or Galadriel.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Feb 14 2015, 4:04pm
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Particularly since by "unpopular" you meant "less well known" rather than "disliked by those who do know it" (although of course there are those who do fall into the latter category as well).
Interestingly, I recently made the same observation about Galadriel having been created in the course of the writing of LotR and then being retrofitted into the First Age narratives. I think that is why Tolkien had such a difficult time nailing down her backstory, because she really is not a Silmarillion elf with the kind of foibles that we see so clearly in a character like Feanor or Thingol.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Mikah
Lorien
Feb 14 2015, 4:27pm
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I have often wondered where she got her power and insight into the minds of others as well. In Unfinished Tales Tolkien tells us that since her earliest days she had a marvelous gift into the insight of others. He goes on to say regarding Galadriel's feelings toward Feanor "in him she perceived a darkness that she hated and feared, though she did not perceive that the shadow of the same evil had fallen upon the minds of all the Noldor, and upon her own." This statement makes me wonder if the shadow which Melkor had cast in some way tainted her gift? Of course, I am only speculating here. Honestly, you raise a good point. I had never considered her using this power to alert the Teleri of Feanor's intent. I believe it could be because the kinslaying was more of a knee jerk reaction by Feanor, than an intended purpose? Once again, I am only speculating.
Regarding Galadriel and her fighting prowess, I remember having very similar questions when we read Unfinished Tales. I never quite understood what it meant that she fought "fiercely against Feanor in defense of her mothers kin." You are right, it could be metaphorical, but I had always translated that sentence literally. Although I am not exactly certain what it means either. There are certainly others in the RR who understand Galadriel better than I and could offer insight here.
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arithmancer
Grey Havens
Feb 14 2015, 6:11pm
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Intimidating...or informative?
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Just stopping into say this is one of the things I love about this subforum. I am one of those more casual fans - I was attracted to this forum by the impending Hobbit film release. I read the Silm once, ages and ages ago, the other two books far more times. And while I do hope someday to get around to reading more for myself - I appreciate learning more about Tolkien's creative process, alternative ideas, and unfinished writings from the very well-read regulars here!
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Girdle of Melian
Lorien
Feb 14 2015, 9:18pm
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Do you think many doubt Galadriel's abilities because she's female? I tend to get this a lot from some arguments...she's always the "healer, the wise one one, or just the "strategist" though that could be a male attribute as well (if we go with streotypes).
Some people say that even Glorfindel is more powerful than Galadriel, notably coz he killed a Balrog (though died with them), yet you have a quote that states, "a queen she was of the woodland Elves, the wife of Celeborn of Doriath, yet she herself was of the Noldor and remember the Day before days in Valinor, and she was the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth."
Now the complication starts with the term "greatest. When Tolkien says greatest and talks about a specific or a few set of skills, I think he really means that that particular individual is surpassed by none in that skill. For example, Tulkas someone mentioned long time ago that Tulkas was the greatest in strength and deeds in prowess (Valaquenta). So, as far as the Valar is concernd, Tulkas was the greatest strength-wise but that does not mean he was the wisest or the one with great inherent power. But when Tolkien uses the term "greatest" in the general sense, I think he means EXACTLY that they are the greatest - as a whole, not just talking about one thing here and there..just like when he referred to as the greatest maiar spirit being Sauron, and Feanor, greatest of the Noldor.
Hence, Sauron was the greatest of Morgoth's camp, then Feanor, greatest of the Noldor, which means just that, their skills as a whole, their inherent power and their abilities were not surpassed. No one surpassed Sauron as Morgoth's servant, and out of the Noldor, Feanor was best. Hence, when Tolkien saysSo, when it says that Galadriel is the greatest, save for Feanor (with a "Maybe"), that's what it means, I think!
I don't see how hard it is to understand that of the Noldor Galadriel was second or equal only to Feanor (maybe). Her attributes are not just one or two things there, but a match a match for everyone. She could match the loremasters of the Eldar (lore and wisdom, not to mention what she learned from a Maiar - Melian - who could do as she pleases in ME), and she was also a match for their athletes (so strength and body). She was great magically and power wise (the Mirror of Galadriel, and her dismantling the walls of Dol Guldur). Also was a student of the Maia Melian, where she learned many things from, and I guess, when called for, she was not afraid of taking armed combat if you take her defense of her mother's kin literally. Hence, she was not simply the greatest in one or two areas, but she was a great individual as a whole. And though we never know what she exactly did in defense of Lorien when it was assaulted three times, it did clearly say that "despite the valor of the Elven people, the power that dwelt there was too great to overcome unless Sauron came there himself (presumably with the One Ring on his finger).
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