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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Feb 10 2015, 4:39pm
Post #1 of 8
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Belegost and Nogrod in the Third Age.
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I used to have the impression that the site of Mount Dolmed in the Blue Mountains would have been fairly close to the Grey Havens and that the ruins of the First-Age dwarven city of Nogrod would likely have been at the bottom of the Gulf of Lune; Belegost would have been a bit further north (according to the map in The Silmarillion) and might even have been rebuilt.
Further study of the map of Beleriand in the First Age and of the North of Middle-earth in the Third Age yielded some revelations. The site of Mount Dolmed would have been over 100 miles farther north than I thought. That places the two cities also further north. In fact, one of these cities might have been the site of the Dwarf-mines where King Arvedui sheltered for a while after the Witch-king overran the North Kingdom of Arthedain.
Could either or both of these cities have been reclaimed by the Dwarves in the Third Age after the Balrog of Moria was first awakened? Thorin's Halls seem to have been farther south, but what of the descendants of the Dwarves who were forced to leave Nogrod and Belegost at the end of the First Age?
"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.
"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet." - Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Feb 10 2015, 10:53pm
Post #2 of 8
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As close as I can tell, the site of Mount Dolmed in the Third Age would be in Forlindon (North Lindon), between where the (Forlond?) river flows out of the Ered Luin and the forested area south of there.
Belegost would be on the eastern side of the range slightly to the north of Dolmed. Nogrost would be twenty-five miles or so south of her sister city.
I am using Karen Fonstad's map of Eriador, even though she places Belegost much too far to the south in her First Age map of Beleriand. Click on the map to enlarge it.
"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.
"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet." - Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Feb 10 2015, 10:56pm)
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Felagund
Rohan
Feb 24 2015, 10:03pm
Post #3 of 8
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the 'dwarf country' of northern Ered Luin
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It's also one of the fist questions I asked myself when I started comparing the maps of The Sil and LotR. I reckon you're right, the cities of the Firebeards and Broadbeams would have been in the northern half of the Ered Luin - as depicted in the Third Age.
This is suggested by a couple of references. There's the reference to the abandoned dwarf mines found by Arvedui in III.1974, which you picked up on. This must have been at the northern end of the Ered Luin, as Arvedui would have simply gone to the Grey Havens, where he had allies, if he had managed to flee in the direction of the southern Ered Luin. The fact that Arvedui then went to nearby Forochel underscores this geography. Also, these abandoned mines pre-date Thráin II's settlement of Ered Luin by over a thousand years (III.2802) - so that rules out Arvedui accidentally coming across some part of the 'Thorin's Halls' mentioned in Unfinished Tales ("The Quest of Erebor"). Indeed, with Khazad-dûm still in full swing at the time of Arvedui's flight, there was no need for dwarves to settle or mine in Ered Luin at all.
There's also a reference in HoMe XII ("Of Dwarves & Men") to the country beyond the Little Lune River being 'dwarf country'. It's not named on the Wynn Fonstad map but it is marked - it's the tributary running from west to east into the Lune River, rising in the northern range of the Ered Luin. Taken with the above reference to the 'abandoned dwarf mines' , I reckon it's pretty clear that there had been dwarf settlement in the area of the northern Ered Luin, and that the most likely suspects are Belegost and Nogrod.
One final remark. Although the two cities under discussion were said to have been ruined in the destruction of Beleriand, they were still inhabited in the early years of the Second Age. The timeline in the Appendices of LotR states that the dwarves of Belegost and Nogrod only abandoned their ruined cities from c. II.40 - ie. they continued to live in them, or thereabouts, for several decades after the War of Wrath ended.
And because we have so few examples of Khuzdul, I want to take the opportunity to cite their true names! So let's hear it for Tumunzahar and Gabilgathol!
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Feb 25 2015, 2:07am
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You are probably right that the abandoned mine(s) that King Arvendui and his followers sheltered in where likely to have been somewhere north of the Little Lune, closer to the primary source of the River Lhune. For the purpose of the adventure that I am writing for The One Ring Roleplaying Game, a few miles south of the Little Lune works better, if only because I want to establish a connection between the mines and the ruoins of Belegost.
After the Great Battle and the flooding of Nogrod and Belegost I can imagine the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains attempting to rebuild over the next few decades only to realize that the region had become too unstable. Thus they relocate to Khazad-dum in SA 40 until the awaking of the Balrog in the Third Age. I hypothesize that the land over the ancient Dwarf-cities subsided, possibly at the time of the sinking of Numenor, creating the passes and vales that seem to occupy the sites of Belegost and Nogrod in the Third Age.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Felagund
Rohan
Feb 25 2015, 5:55pm
Post #5 of 8
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some more cartographical musings
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I've done some more research, as I love Middle-earth cartography and I'm very interested in your RPG project!
Using the island of Himling / Himring as a reference point you can identify what is likely to be Mount Rerir (or what was left of it, after the War of Wrath) on the Third Age map - it's probably the spur running west from the northern range of the Ered Luin, towards the sea and Himling. Now looking at the 'Second Silmarillion Map', which comes with a scale (1 box = c. 50 miles), you can see that Belegost is approximately 150 miles south of Mount Rerir. Transposing this calculation onto the map of Third Age Middle-earth, you can then make a reasonable guess that Belegost lies on a latitude that cuts across the source of Little Lune and the river that runs to Forlond - pretty much where you plan to place it. One important caveat - Tolkien effectively elongated his conception of Beleriand after the publication of LotR, by pushing Angband further north. This need not be fatal to the scale used above though, given that what he seems to have in mind is stretching out the distance between Menegroth and Angband.
Just to make matters more interesting, Tolkien did actually show Belegost on a post-Beleriand map. This was on his 'First Map' for LotR (drafted: pre-1943), which Christopher Tolkien reproduced in HoMe VII (Map I). Originally, Belegost was located at the south-eastern end of the southern range of Ered Luin. This is nearly 300 miles further south than where we've been talking about!
A couple of further musings. It's possible the remnant populations of Belegost and Nogrod evacuated around II.40 because of their proximity to the newly established Kingdom of Lindon. These Dwarves may not have felt comfortable around the Elves of Lindon, not least because of the bad blood between the folk of Nogrod and the Sindarin remnant of Doriath. We know there was a significant Sindarin population in Harlindon, for example (Unfinished Tales, "History of Galadriel & Celeborn"). The same source tells us that this fear of reprisal was already felt, before Beleriand was destroyed: the Dwarves of Belegost began to emigrate to Khazad-dûm once the disaster at Sarn Athrad became known. As for the mines discovered by Arvedui, and the 'Dwarf country' north of the Little Lune in the Second Age, these could be explained as the hinterland territories of either Belegost or Nogrod.
Mentioning Mount Rerir reminded me that Caranthir had a fortress on its western slopes, and an 'abode' by the nearby Lake Helevorn. These were overrun after the Dagor Bragollach but in the spirit of speculation, it's possible that their ruins also survived the breaking of Beleriand. That'd be some more nice ruins in Ered Luin for your RPG!
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Feb 25 2015, 6:19pm
Post #6 of 8
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A more southerly-located Belegost
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Just to make matters more interesting, Tolkien did actually show Belegost on a post-Beleriand map. This was on his 'First Map' for LotR (drafted: pre-1943), which Christopher Tolkien reproduced in HoMe VII (Map I). Originally, Belegost was located at the south-eastern end of the southern range of Ered Luin. This is nearly 300 miles further south than where we've been talking about!
Yes, this seems to be the source for where Karen Wynn Fonstad located Belegost in the revised editon of The Atlas of Middle-earth. I dismiss this as an abandoned idea in favor of the description in the published SIlmarillion, where Belegost is north of Nogrod and Mount Dolmed.
I can reconcile my location for the abandoned mine by reasoning that King Arvedui first came to the area of the source of the Little Lune to hide from Angmar with the intention of making for the Grey Havens, only to be cut off by the forces of Angmar and forced to move farther north.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Felagund
Rohan
Feb 25 2015, 6:56pm
Post #7 of 8
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I agree that Wynn Fonstad made an error there - although she is a legend all the same. As far as I recall, the 'Second Silmarillion Map' post-dates the 'First Map', so the location of Belegost north of Mount Dolmed is closer to being the last word. Elthir is a font of knowledge on these matters, if he/she is online.
The abandoned mine bit of the story makes sense to me too. It was somewhere between the Little Lune and the northern end of the Ered Luin - it may as well be at the source of that river as not! That it was mines Arvedui discovered and not the ruins of once great Gabilgathol is a shame. He still would have starved but the scenery would have been grander!
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Mar 11 2015, 4:04pm
Post #8 of 8
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... but never read (the rest of) this thread until today. Thanks for the confidence Felagund! But I must say that I have never delved into this particular matter very deeply.
Generally speaking then: while I agree that KW Fonstad does a remarkable job, even she notes certain difficulties she was faced with, and I don't agree with her book 100%... noting that I don't agree with even Tolkien about everything.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Mar 11 2015, 4:12pm)
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