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** 'The Fellowship of the Ring' ch. 9-1, 'At the Sign of the Prancing Pony': A Story in Five Movements
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sador
Half-elven


Feb 17 2015, 1:49pm

Post #26 of 40 (1215 views)
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As a matter of fact, [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien did consider the name The White Horse at first. I suppose the name was discarded for The Prancing Pony when he decided (temporarily) that Bree would be a town of hobbits.

In Reply To

And if the pony prancing is white this could well be the English county of Kent.


There are such all over England. Naturally, I can't recommend any of those - I haven't ever been near any of them.
And Tom Shippey suggests a connection with the White_Horse of Uffington.



In Reply To
He’s a shrewd salesman...


I like this theory of yours (in this and the two following responses). Vintage Darkstone!



In Reply To

I’d suppose the sight of four hobbits silently eating everything in sight during a 45 minute supper marathon might be a bit alarming for the crowd in the common room.

Sing: gobble, gobble. gobble. gobble
gobble, gobble, gobble, gobble.
(source)

Which fits in with your meal stories. I've heard of similar cases, but have never been present at such an occasion.

Thank you!




sador
Half-elven


Feb 17 2015, 1:50pm

Post #27 of 40 (1204 views)
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A Last Supper??? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


sador
Half-elven


Feb 17 2015, 1:52pm

Post #28 of 40 (1203 views)
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Thanks for both your responses! [In reply to] Can't Post

Truly fascinating.



In Reply To

It's amazing what you find when you are looking for something else.

QFT


sador
Half-elven


Feb 17 2015, 3:43pm

Post #29 of 40 (1202 views)
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Mixed answers [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
This could be a fossil left over from when the area was more populated, but to me the point is not whether there is actually any room, but that the squint-eyed fellow is making a threat. The newcomers (meaning his kind) will soon be coming to the area to do what they like, and woe to those who disagree.


Yes, in the wide context of the book as we know it, that makes sense. But do his words actually include such a threat? As far as I can see, they do not; but he seems to have carried on quite a harangue, which probably had more to it than Tolkien writes at the moment.



In Reply To
Well, sure it was natural and reasonable enough, but Frodo's secret makes him uneasy and overly suspicious (at least of the Hobbits).


That makes sense. Do you think this was a reason to reject Sam's suggestion of looking to the local hobbits for hospitality?

I was angling at the idea that when preparing for his flight, Frodo might have neglected this angle. One should always research, to make his cover convincing; but Frodo didn't expect to take the road without Gandalf, and it seems that undertaking this research while he was only with difficulty coming to terms with the idea of his departure was too much for him. A pity.
Unlike Merry, he does not seem to be overly organised and efficient.



In Reply To

I've read this story too many times to not know what he means, but I can see how this statement could get lost among all Butterbur's other inanities.

Bingo! (not the character from the drafts)
Of course, as written, this aside calls the readers' attention to Strider immediately - but it is likely that Frodo did not realise its importance.



In Reply To
Strider is just getting confirmation of what he overheard by that question. Strider is wary of traps himself. Of course we also know (or we will, next chapter) that Gildor had told Strider of Frodo's situation.


Yes, although that makes his statement in the next chapter about fearing a trap of the Enemy's a bit far-stretched.


sador
Half-elven


Feb 17 2015, 3:59pm

Post #30 of 40 (1209 views)
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I, for one, never loved Popeye [In reply to] Can't Post

I kept hoping Bluto would lick him properly, once and for all. But then, I always rooted for Wile E. Coyote, too.
Watching cartoons was always an excersize in masochism for me. So I stopped.



In Reply To

I’m thinking he’s looking for desert.

Or for beer, which someone else will pay for. (as they did, after he began prancing on the table)



In Reply To

Sounds like the Internet was alive and well even before there was an Internet.

Word.



In Reply To
They’d be taking jobs from hardworking Breelanders.


And taxes will be raised, for the extra welfare and social security expenses.



In Reply To

He didn’t memorize his cover.

Ah! Just as I thought.



In Reply To

Oh, you listen to Curious but to not to me?

I beg your pardon. Must be the Midgewater Marshes clogging up my ears.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Feb 17 2015, 11:44pm

Post #31 of 40 (1187 views)
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I'm starting to envision armies slipping over the gate, one by one. [In reply to] Can't Post

That place leaked like a sieve. And don't get me started again on how lousy a hedge is for a defense.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Feb 17 2015, 11:49pm

Post #32 of 40 (1187 views)
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Who are all the southerners at the inn? [In reply to] Can't Post

Not just the squint-eyed one, but all of them. Are they from Dunland, Rohan, Gondor, or some unincorporated land? How did they know about Bree, and why choose it as a place to settle when most of Eriador is unpopulated? None of this is ever clear to me.


Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 18 2015, 2:06am

Post #33 of 40 (1183 views)
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Hmm. Last Supper... [In reply to] Can't Post

I said that before they left Crickhollow too. So I suppose that's the Penultimate Supper. (My needle clearly is stuck in the groove).LaughCrazy








Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 18 2015, 2:08am

Post #34 of 40 (1180 views)
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Point taken on the Southerner climbing in... [In reply to] Can't Post

...But I do like the idea of Strider owning all that skill. Purely reader reaction!








sador
Half-elven


Feb 18 2015, 2:56pm

Post #35 of 40 (1178 views)
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Interesting thought [In reply to] Can't Post

About the absence of Merry as a factor.

Hmm.


Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 18 2015, 5:37pm

Post #36 of 40 (1173 views)
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Last Supper themes [In reply to] Can't Post

I do see a lot of these...sort of Last Suppers, in their way (though I suppose they are a collection of Penultimate Suppers Wink ) in the patterning of Frodo and Sam's journey. I have said before that Frodo's steps remind me in many ways of a Stations of the Cross *type* of journey. They also in their way remind me of Odysseus...so which came first, one can ask, and who influenced who.


But we have so many places of the journey being broken by 'bread', as it were, and the relative Good Samaritans that help Frodo and Sam along the way. And since one of them is a woman, in the form of Galadriel, she feels very much like Veronica to me in that both people involved are profoundly affected by the interaction: Frodo receives the spiritual aid of Galadriel, and she receives a pardon from the Ban by rejecting the Ring. And food and rest are there too, just like in the other areas of peace and renewal.


In no way do I think it is direct allegory: unless subconsciously so. More likely, maybe just the styling of so many mythic journeys take the same shape as the stations and thus influence the path of Frodo.


So the Supper theme does seem to repeat. If Hobbits are a form of man closer to nature (paraphrasing), then maybe that accent on their biological need of good plain food is one way that this is drawn. And showing that mortification and suffering of the flesh that Frodo and Sam experience once all help is withdrawn as they get closer to the actual destruction of the Ring (and Frodo's relative failure).








(This post was edited by Brethil on Feb 18 2015, 5:37pm)


Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 18 2015, 5:39pm

Post #37 of 40 (1173 views)
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Continuing the thought [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
About the absence of Merry as a factor.

Hmm.


in Arithmancer's chapter, the judgment of Merry is also absent at the Hobbits' (and thus our) assessment of Strider.








Darkstone
Immortal


Feb 18 2015, 7:16pm

Post #38 of 40 (1173 views)
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The Adventures of Frodo in Bree-Land [In reply to] Can't Post

Alice sighed wearily. 'I think you might do something better with the time,' she said, 'than waste it in asking riddles that have no answers.'
'If you knew Time as well as I do,' said the Hatter, 'you wouldn't talk about wasting it. It's him.'
'I don't know what you mean...’

-Lewis Carroll, Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland, Chapter 7: A Mad Tea Party

'To be sure I was!' Humpty Dumpty said gaily as she turned it round for him. 'I thought it looked a little queer. As I was saying, that seems to be done right — though I haven't time to look it over thoroughly just now — and that shows that there are three hundred and sixty-four days when you might get un-birthday presents —'
'Certainly,' said Alice.
'And only one for birthday presents, you know. There's glory for you!'
'I don't know what you mean…'

- Lewis Carroll Through the Looking-Glass, Chapter 6:Humpty Dumpty

'Where do you come from?' said the Red Queen. 'And where are you going? Look up, speak nicely, and don't twiddle your fingers all the time.'
Alice attended to all these directions, and explained, as well as she could, that she had lost her way.
'I don't know what you mean…'

- Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass, Chapter 2: The Garden of Live Flowers

"What is it, now?" the Frog said in a deep hoarse whisper.
Alice turned round, ready to find fault with anybody. "Where's the servant whose business it is to answer the door?" she began angrily.
"Which door?" said the Frog.
Alice almost stamped with irritation at the slow drawl in which he spoke. "This door, of course!"
The Frog looked at the door with his large dull eyes for a minute: then he went nearer and rubbed it with his thumb, as if he were trying whether the paint would come off: then he looked at Alice.
"To answer the door?" he said "What's it been asking of?" He was so hoarse that Alice could scarcely hear him.
"I don't know what you mean…"

- Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass, Chapter 9: Queen Alice

'Well?' said Strider, when he reappeared. 'Why did you do that? Worse than anything your friends could have said! You have put your foot in it! Or should I say your finger?'
'I don't know what you mean...'

-At the Sign of The Prancing Pony


'Oh yes, you do,' answered Strider; 'but we had better wait until the uproar has died down. Then, if you please, Mr Baggins, I should like to have a quiet word with you'.
Is it clear that Strider knows Frodo has the Ring?


Double entendres can be accidental, but not in this case.


Is Frodo sincere in his denial?

He’s “annoyed and alarmed”, like someone who’s fallen down the hobbit-hole, or stepped into Galadriel’s looking glass.


On the other hand – might he have suspected that the suggestion to put on the Ring, which he felt came from "someone or something in the room", actually came from Strider?

Strider looks foul but feels fair so Frodo might want to give one of his other three senses a shot to break the tie.


This is followed by the mention of Frodo's true name. Did Strider know his unwilling interlocutor is actually Frodo Baggins, or did he make the connection just now?

As head of the Secret Guardians of the Shire (SGOTS) I’m sure Strider is quite familiar with a stout little fellow with red cheeks, taller than some and fairer than most, with a cleft in his chin, a perky chap with a bright eye, nephew/cousin of Elf Friend Bilbo Baggins, who for the past seventeen years has been wandering all over the Shire mooning about having to leave it. That’s not to mention Strider having to deal with constant complaints by passing Elves and Dwarves about being always accosted by the guy for news and stories of the outside world.

Yeah, there’s a big Ranger file on Frodo.


The last question will be answered on the next chapter, and Frodo ignores it. But what do you think he makes of it now?

A hat, a broach, or a pterodactyl.


'Well, I saw what I saw, and I saw what I didn't,' said Mugwort obstinately.

I love this line.


Do you love Butterbur's comment "or into thick air, as is more likely in this room"?

Once again a James Fenimore Cooper reference by Tolkien!

From his autobiographical Afloat and Ashore (1844):

As before, my station was on the forecastle. I had been directed to keep a bright look-out, as the enemy would doubtless be first seen from forward. The order was unnecessary, however, for never did human beings gaze into a fog more anxiously, than did all on board our ship on this occasion. Calculating by the distance, and the courses steered, we supposed ten or fifteen minutes would bring us square alongside of Mr. Marble's ship; though some among us doubted his having seen any vessel at all. There was about a five-knot breeze, and we had all our square sails set, knowing it was necessary to go a little faster than our adversary, to catch up with him. The intense expectation, not to say anxiety, of such a scene, is not easily described. The surrounding fog, at times, seemed filled with ships; but all vanished into thick air, one after another, leaving nothing but vapour.


It seems a piece of innocent comedy, in line with "He's welcome to go where he will, so long as he pays in the morning" – quite a shopkeeper's sentiment!

No doubt he would defend Mugwort, Bill Ferny, the squint-eyed southerner, and even the Black Riders the same way.


Or is it an underhand suggestion that Mugwort is drunk himself, and his account is suspicious?

The difference between heavenly thin air and disordered thick air was expounded upon by Isidore of Seville (Think he was a barber?):

Air (aer) is so called from the Greek “to raise”, because it supports the earth or, it may be, is supported by it . This belongs partly to the substance of heaven, partly to that of the earth. For yonder thin air where windy and gusty blasts cannot come into existence, belongs to the heavenly part; but this more disordered air which takes a corporeal character because of dank exhalations, is assigned to earth, and it has many subdivisions: for being set in motion it makes winds; and being vigorously agitated, lightnings and thunderings; being contracted, clouds; being thickened, rain; when the clouds freeze, snow; when thick clouds freeze in a more disordered way, hail; being spread abroad, it causes fine weather; for it is known that thick air is a cloud and that a cloud that thins and melts away, is air.
-Origines, Book XIII, Chapter 7: On the Universe and Its Parts (c.600 AD)

“disordered air which takes a corporeal character because of dank exhalations” is pretty much an apt description of the air in any old pub.


Does Mugwort take it as such?

He probably takes another ale.


Tolkien gives as a reason for Butterbur's indifference his anticipation of future business;
But shouldn't he be concerned by the possibility that he is harbouring a dangerous sorcerer?


Like he’s going to do anything to a dangerous sorcerer, much less a dangerous sorcerer who’s a paying customer.


Or at least by the danger to his crockery?

As long as he pays for it in the morning, with a small surcharge of course, he can break anything he wants. Even Nob’s leg.


And then, Frodo's given excuse.
Does it make any sense?


I know not what you mean by that, but I am sure Caesar fell down.
-Julius Caesar, Act 1, scene 2


Falling down, and then crawling to have a chat with a Ranger nobody knows properly, and probably has no previous knowledge of the hobbits?

A good excuse. For both parties.


And shouldn't he have gotten up and apologized for the alarm and the broken plates, had this really been a mere accident?

Sometimes you realize no apology will do. Just pay the man.


Or, if we assume that he was simply tipsy – is this a natural attempt to escape the embarrassment?

Hobbits are child-like, and children often believe if they act like something didn’t happen, then people will think it didn’t.

Doesn’t work, but that doesn’t stop childish adults from forever giving it a try.


In the next chapter, we will learn that Strider had asked Butterbur to allow an interview with the hobbits as soon as they came in.
What do you think Butterbur is thinking now of the two 'friends'?


“How can I get away wIth charging a fee to both parties for arranging a meeting?”


Butterbur does ask Frodo to be more careful in the future, and also asks for a word with him later. Frodo assents, but clearly does not look forward to his private talks with Strider and Butterbur.
How do you feel at the end of this chapter?


Time for Hobbit #4 to die to show how serious the situation is.


The relieving of tension, or anticipation of the next one?

I’m wondering who exactly is Hobbit #4.


Do you feel suspense?

Sure.


Should this be consider a cliffhanger?

Conventional “wisdom” is that thrillers are supposed to end on a climax to keep the reader turning pages. In general a chapter should end right at a crucial moment. It is good to have each chapter finish with a question that will not be answered until a following chapter. (Not necessarily the immediately following chapter.)

******************************************
I met a Balrog on the stair,
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today,
I wish he would just fly away.


sador
Half-elven


Feb 18 2015, 9:29pm

Post #39 of 40 (1171 views)
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If only he obliged, perhaps Frodo wouldn't make such fool of himself! [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Ilsa: Play it once, Sam, for old times' sake.Sam: I don't know what you mean, Miss Ilsa


As a matter of fact, I prefer your quotes.
But I'll avoid discussing the Bread-and-Butterfly, and comparing it to our very own Bread-and-Butterbur.



In Reply To

Sometimes you realize no apology will do. Just pay the man.


I'll try to remember that.



In Reply To
Hobbits are child-like, and children often believe if they act like something didn’t happen, then people will think it didn’t.
Doesn’t work, but that doesn’t stop childish adults from forever giving it a try.


I've decided long ago not to get involved in any political discussions on TORn, but you're goading me.




Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Feb 22 2015, 2:47am

Post #40 of 40 (1150 views)
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Thank-you. [In reply to] Can't Post

I am glad my many mis-spellings (Noticed in hindsight) did not give as much trouble as I imagined.

I am afraid I cannot comment much further, but I wanted to say 'Thank-you', properly.

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?

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