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Bombadil
Half-elven
Feb 9 2015, 10:57am
Post #26 of 52
(542 views)
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Interestin' VERY Interesting...Humm
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SSOoo this where the All-Wise & Most Powerful
OPINIONATORS hang out...
Above the Clouds
& Dust Storms kicked up by the "Less Than Immortals"
Can bomby Buy? an "E" Ticket for this Most Famous THrill RIDE..?
In Film Study... there is a term called a "JUMP CUT"
which is?... when someone shown is moved between shots
that don't seem logical..there is Gap between the two.
A missing Shot...or two , maybe THREE?
OKAY here is Bomby's View...The Censors took their Sissors
& FORCED PJ to hack away the mostly Ghastly Shots.
ie. "The Lack of Beorn" on the Ground. Massacre-ing many ORCS
with jus a simple Sweep of his PAW.
Quite similiar to Sauron {In Armor} in the Battle of the Last Alliance,
in the FOTR prologue,
first seen over a dozen years ago
DEEMED "TOO Violent for teenagers"...?.
SSOoo..Bomby went 11 times to try to find them...& YES! they ARE THERE.
Continuity was lost.., & NEVER DID recover in THIS VERSION
SSOoo, if you please,
ExSQUEEZE me...but ANY Final Judgement needs to be put .."ON HOLD"
until will get the DIRECTOR'S CUT, much later this year.
THEN many may EAT their VERY own OPINIONs.
{with a bit of Humble Pie on the side}
THOSE Missing SHOTS might make many to Switch Sides..
OVER here on?..on? the Cheerleaders side.
GO! PJ..GO! Bomby is Purely Pleased & Happy to be SSOoo..
BLOWN Away by SIR Jackson & will continue to care...
Despite the ARMY of Ne-gators...Alligators snapping @ PJ's Ankles.
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Arannir
Valinor
Feb 9 2015, 1:28pm
Post #27 of 52
(521 views)
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I never thought any judgment should be waited with until the EE comes out. This is what is seen by the large majority of people and what they pay for when they buy their tickets.
So as much as I personally hope the EE will make this last film more enjoyable and less frustrating for me, I will always remain baffled by how the TE of BotFA looked and felt like (to me).
And honestly, I do not care that much what decisions happened because of PJ and which because of the studio (or anyone else). What matters is what is running on screen now, imho (of course, as someone interestes in filmmaking I would like to know what happened because of whom - but right now there is no reason to believe PJ didn't deliver by and alrge the movie HE wanted).
So I am sorry - I will not eat any opinion. The EE does not change the TE in any way.
Other than that I totally agree with CatherineB. I do not hate BotFA or nit-pick it to death, even if some people seem to only be able to handle criticism by labelling my posts as such. I am frustrated by it (at least by some key aspects of it) yet still have a lot of love and warmth for this version of Middle-earth. And that is something different altogether than hate. In a lot of ways hating might actually be easier - but I care too much both about Tolkien's and PJ's vision to let it go so quickly.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
(This post was edited by Arannir on Feb 9 2015, 1:38pm)
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CathrineB
Rohan
Feb 9 2015, 2:48pm
Post #28 of 52
(478 views)
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I never thought any judgment should be waited with until the EE comes out. This is what is seen by the large majority of people and what they pay for when they buy their tickets.
So as much as I personally hope the EE will make this last film more enjoyable and less frustrating for me, I will always remain baffled by how the TE of BotFA looked and felt like (to me).
I agree. I don't get why people keep saying "Wait for the EE to cast judgement." Why?! It's the TE that we see in theaters. That the movie is judged by in the first place. Why shouldn't the fans? I do too hope that the EE fixes up the mess the left us with especially the last 30-40 minutes of it and hopefully I can love that version, BUT it doesn't change the version that has been released for all to see. Other than that I totally agree with CatherineB. I do not hate BotFA or nit-pick it to death, even if some people seem to only be able to handle criticism by labelling my posts as such. I am frustrated by it (at least by some key aspects of it) yet still have a lot of love and warmth for this version of Middle-earth. And that is something different altogether than hate. In a lot of ways hating might actually be easier - but I care too much both about Tolkien's and PJ's vision to let it go so quickly.
It's annoying when people label us "negative fans" as haters. We're not. I'm not even a purist and have that way enjoyed all of LotR and the previous Hobbit movies. That is why my disappointment with BotfA hit me so hard that it's so extremely frustrating. I had reached a point where I thought they couldn't fail because of five successful movies (to me) and yet here something happened. BotfA just feels like a result of someone having given up and forgotten about the soul of the movies. Shoving in romance, awkward comedy characters that has no reason to be there over the characters that should be and cringeworthy lines. It just completely lost it's ways. We're not haters for reacting like that.
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Elessar
Valinor
Feb 9 2015, 3:07pm
Post #29 of 52
(479 views)
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Be it the real world or not. I personally found the movie pretty darn good (8.5/10) but I know of a friend or two that didn't care for it nearly as much. It is what it is. Some people that love it don't want to hear anything bad and some that didn't want to nitpick it to death. There is a happy medium and sometimes especially via the internet that is hard to find.
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Feb 9 2015, 3:26pm
Post #31 of 52
(467 views)
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Sorry adout my Sorta Snarky Post
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'cause Bom feels we all were a bit Confused
when things aren't Logical because of JUMP CUTS.
When we do get the EE, bom plans to listen?.. VERY Carefully
to PJ & PB. They do explain the reasons for their Story-Telling decisions,
that really does help us to understand.
EXAMPLE: The Windlance?
Bom counted TEN passes over Laketown by Smaug.
The First pass he did not blow Flames...SSOoo it seems
he needed to Explore the Town...Rightly THEN..,did Smash
the Windlance
FIRST....
THAT is ONE Mystery Solved, since we all were expecting Something, BUT got Nothing?
Smaug even mentions the Windlance before Leaving for Laketown
SSOoo...where was it? Other gaps in Logic & Logistics of the
Battle had many Jump CUTS...later, too.
This is something that goes into your head often on a Subconscious Level
...and if there are enough of these Missing Shots,
eventually you FEEL Uncomfortable, subconsciously, therefore a bit Perlexed as to to ..WHY?
Bom sincerely apologizes for the first post, since it was somewhat
TOO opinionated..
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Feb 9 2015, 3:56pm
Post #32 of 52
(458 views)
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I'm starting to feel a bit confused.
I took the liberty of searching the forum posts since the release for the word "hater" and am perplexed to find a large number of posts expressing concern at being labelled a "hater" and a number of posts saying "I am not a hater" but no actual examples where a poster is labelled a "hater" by another poster.
Am I missing something or have such posts been made and since deleted?
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Elessar
Valinor
Feb 9 2015, 3:57pm
Post #33 of 52
(452 views)
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via a few posts where maybe the term wasn't used an a PM or two.
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Arannir
Valinor
Feb 9 2015, 4:09pm
Post #34 of 52
(472 views)
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I am sorry if you feel that way.
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But no, I found this post an appropriate place to put that comment. I wanted to make a point - the same as CatherineB - that it is not so much about hating for me but about frustration with something. And sorry but it is a fact that my views have been called "hating" (or similar labels) here several times over the last weeks (actually not just myself but others who imho made valueable contributions). This is why I found it appropriate to put it here, to make clear that there is hate-trolling towards these movies but that one has to be careful not to discredit constructive criticism too by being too quick labelling something or someone.
I didn't think this was a snarky comment on my part, it certainly wasn't meant that way.
I am also not sure which sort of comments you mean that added to the hater/fanboy issue and didn't add anything to a discussion - the comment you posted above is, after all, just part of a much longer post and point - in relation to the topic discussed here. And I seem to remember that most of my posts have been like this and not out of context.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
(This post was edited by Arannir on Feb 9 2015, 4:20pm)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Feb 9 2015, 5:30pm
Post #36 of 52
(439 views)
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Could you point to a couple of examples?
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I can't find any posts from the last couple of months which use the word "hater" aimed at any other poster. Now we are saying "hating" or "similar labels".
It does make a fair difference what is actually being said.
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Arannir
Valinor
Feb 9 2015, 6:17pm
Post #37 of 52
(418 views)
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... in context each time I felt it was needed.
It would be pretty pointless and difficult to now single them out. The people involved know what I was talking about and when.
Again, my comment in this thread was said in the thread's context that IMHO focused a bit too much on the extremes out there and not enough on the valid criticism.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Feb 9 2015, 7:14pm
Post #38 of 52
(393 views)
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I saw the same kind of thing back in the 80s at sci-fi conventions. I dubbed it fannish elitism. If something became popular it was Now A Part of Mainstream Culture and Therefore Awful.
Basically, it's easy to criticize, hard to critique.
As useful discussion of what worked and what didn't is harder to put forth, because it needs some science backing it up, some real world observation, actual facts, some intelligent thinking.
It's easy to rant about something that just hit you the wrong way. especially in an arena (the web) where you can be anonymous and flail about and no one will actually stick a fork in your head.
Interesting question about the psychology of trolls...
Psychology Today points to a Canadian study here: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/your-online-secrets/201409/internet-trolls-are-narcissists-psychopaths-and-sadists...
That pretty much sums it up.
The lovely thing about torn is when we've had actual trolls (or even people with very entrenched opinions) the reaction has been to attack with humor, and positive energy.
Na 'Aear, na 'Aear! Mýl 'lain nallol, I sûl ribiel a i falf 'loss reviol...
To the sea, to the sea, the white gulls are crying, the wind is blowing and the white foam is flying...
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Feb 9 2015, 7:32pm
Post #39 of 52
(398 views)
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It just all seems a bit mysterious.
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Replies in context are fine but there are also a substantial number of comments (seemingly daily) seemingly out of context, where posters comment that they are being labelled haters.
Yet I can't find those posts where people are, in fact, being labelled haters.
Perhaps, they are being deleted or all this is happening by PM? Perhaps, as you say, some inner circle do know what you are referring to but to ordinary readers it is most mysterious, yet is constantly being mentioned.
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Arannir
Valinor
Feb 9 2015, 8:09pm
Post #40 of 52
(381 views)
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Imho it is - in this thread - an unneeded and again semantic discussion that has been led elsewhere and last but not least in the feedback forum. No inner circles, no mystery.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Feb 9 2015, 8:16pm
Post #41 of 52
(379 views)
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Well, obviously I can't force you to explain.
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But I'm sure if you choose to keep posting about it, you will keep getting replies from other posters!
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Arannir
Valinor
Feb 9 2015, 8:22pm
Post #42 of 52
(380 views)
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That is why I didn't want to start the whole thing again.
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The whole discussion surrounding people who didn't feel welcomed here anymore isn't new. Several people, as a matter of fact, announced they would leave the board because of it - people with different views of the movies. I belonged to those who felt they were attacked patronized in some instances for posting critical comments. You may chose to limit this to the word hater and fanboy but the incidents were often more complex than that and spread over several threads. I don't know what you are trying to imply here now - in a thread that dealt with another issue in another circumstance. It also isn't limited to a feeling that just I mentioned and posted.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
(This post was edited by Arannir on Feb 9 2015, 8:24pm)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Feb 9 2015, 8:28pm
Post #43 of 52
(375 views)
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But if the goal is to avoid "starting the whole thing again" then possibly it might be more effective not to keep posting about it.
If you post about it, it is sure to generate responses.
But that is just my logic, not an imposition.
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Arannir
Valinor
Feb 9 2015, 8:31pm
Post #44 of 52
(367 views)
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I posted it for a reason and in the context of this thread.
And I will really stop now, as this is probably already under surveillance by the mods and a bit bizarre.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Feb 9 2015, 8:38pm
Post #45 of 52
(371 views)
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If you want to keep bringing it up, that's fine.
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I just don't think you can raise the topic and then expect people not to reply.
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Arannir
Valinor
Feb 9 2015, 8:40pm
Post #46 of 52
(370 views)
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I just don't think you can raise the topic and then expect people not to reply. If there are any questions unanswered between us, we should probably take it to PMs and out of this thread.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
(This post was edited by Arannir on Feb 9 2015, 8:45pm)
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Feb 9 2015, 9:55pm
Post #47 of 52
(352 views)
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It is time to take this to PM. I'm only replying to your post because it's the last one in this back-and-forth. You seemed to want to let the topic go, so I'm not chastising you.
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Feb 9 2015, 9:56pm
Post #48 of 52
(356 views)
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several times. Let's move on.
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Feb 9 2015, 11:59pm
Post #49 of 52
(330 views)
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As someone whom is passionate about Tolkien it is refreshing to hear your unambiguous clearly defined concerns and positives about the film.
I understand and recognise your concerns and yet on my final cinema viewing I throughly enjoyed the film. I think for many Tolkien fans they just oscillate around what works and does not work and then find peace with it.
Where I find some interest in debating is when people try and explain why some thing works for them which does not for me. Some is about taste and some about what is important but some is just a desire to rationalise away definable rational failings and there is little or no point in trying to deal with that and that is true all over the net of fandom.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
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moreorless
Gondor
Feb 10 2015, 7:40am
Post #50 of 52
(313 views)
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Bland seems a little odd to me...
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Could you elaborate on that? I don't love the movie, but neither do I hate it. There are scenes of pure gold (literally) in the movie; some of the best of the entire hexology. But by and large, the movie is messy. Of all 6 movies, it is the only one that I cringed through (and yet I love the Goblin-king), the only one I am embarrassed to watch, and the only one where I have come out thinking that they didn't do the book justice. As a movie, it is just bland. I wouldn't recommend it to a friend or colleague. I "tolerate" it because it exists. I will watch it in the future because it is part of PJ's Middle-earth (which I love), but I certainly can't indulge in it. At the same time, you won't find me ranting everywhere about it (at least, I hope not!) 
I can understand a dislike for certain elements of it and indeed that it was where the changes in Jacksons adaptation really came home to roost but I would struggle to see it as "bland". To me it was actually the least bland of all of the Hobbit films in that it focused mostly on individuals/groups who were considered "good" having a long and rather bitter disagreement over wealth, that's pretty far from your typical blockbuster model.
I would point out as well that the OP did not address his point at these forums but rather the net as a whole. Doubtless there are other forums were decent analysis takes place but I don't think theres any doubt that large parts of the net are prone to a sheeplike method of criticism lacking in this and seeking only easy agreement with there views.
(This post was edited by moreorless on Feb 10 2015, 7:41am)
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