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Nerven
Rivendell
Feb 8 2015, 9:52pm
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Royal titles of the elves.
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I had a discussion with someone who claimed that when Galadriel married Celeborn she no longer had the claim to call herself "Princess of the Noldor", because by that marriage from now on she would belong to Celeborns side of the family and would loose her former privileges, is that right?
Tolkien was really strage in respect to female elves, such as them never becoming high queen altough Idril and Fianrfins older sister had a claim.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Feb 9 2015, 2:01am
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They were called the Lord and Lady of Lorien.
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Although by her birth Galadriel was indisputably a "princess of the Noldor" she never used that title, as far as I know. Although Celeborn's ancestry was indisputably less illustrious than hers, there is no suggestion anywhere that she was diminished in rank or influence by her marriage.
She was certainly a member of the White Council, although there is no mention of Celeborn in that connection (he might or might not have been a member). Galadriel and Celeborn apparently ruled jointly, though when Aragorn, Éomer and others speak of Lorien, they generally speak as though she's the Lady. Celeborn doesn't figure much, except incidentally.
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Nerven
Rivendell
Feb 9 2015, 9:10am
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In ME that title is worthless, but I think in her youth in Aman, she would have used it, I also don´t think that royal elven women loose their titles through marriage, if Tolkien uses the same system as the british royals do, the daughter of queen Elizabeth is still considered a princess when she married someone lower in her rank.
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squire
Half-elven
Feb 9 2015, 3:45pm
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I don't think the titles in The Silmarillion follow any system at all
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Except a kind of generic medieval style, probably inspired by romantic Victorian neo-medievalists like Scott, Morris, and MacDonald.
The leading Elves are referred to as Kings at some points, and Lords elsewhere. Their sons are often referred to as princes in the generic sense but are never addressed as "Prince X" with the capital letters that indicate a title. Almost no daughters of Elven royalty (so-called) appear in the tales - Galadriel is one, of course - but when they do neither the term princess nor title Princess is used for them. They are simply lady or Lady, or even woman or maid.
I don't think it's advisable to speculate what Tolkien's characters "would have" done in cases like this, where Tolkien himself gives us so little information from which to extrapolate more general practices.
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HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell
Feb 11 2015, 4:14am
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She is the only other Elf lass of royal lineage. So how would she be treated? Obviously, Galadriel and Aredhel are the only "noblewoman" of the Noldor. But Aredhel dies in the FA.
Anyway, she did marry a "lesser" Elf, similar to Galadriel. So there are some circumstances that are the same.
In fact, one could argue that Aredhel was of higher lineage than Galadriel given that the title High King of Noldor passed from the house of Feanor to the house of Fingolfin.
Might makes Right!
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Feb 11 2015, 4:41am
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Aredhel and Galadriel had some things in common.
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Both had strong, independent, rebellious streaks, and both "married down," although I still think Aredhel was effectively raped. In any case, neither was the sort of "noble Elf" who would have much truck with titles and such.
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PhantomS
Rohan
Feb 13 2015, 3:07am
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Even though Aredhel was the daughter and then sister of the High King, Galadriel's reputation in Valinor would make the hunting-riding princess defer to her more illustrious cousin, whom she would have hung out with if not for Thingol's ban on Fingolfin's house. Galadriel, like uncle Feanor needed no title- her name alone is famous enough.
The title of 'High King' is not an indicator of any kind of special nobility, apart from descent from the three Elves invited to Valinor by Orome. It is not a rigid one either, as Maedhros simply passed on his claim to Fingolfin and was done with it. Gilgalad did not pass his title to Elrond or anyone else and did not bother to name a sucessor. It's virtually an appointed position in some respects as the owner of the title is already a ruler and doesn't gain anything from it, unlike the High King of Arnor and Gondor.
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HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell
Feb 13 2015, 2:19pm
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I agree that the title wasn't that much politically, but it did at least have a lot of symbolic value. Otherwise, why would Maedhros' brothers be upset that he passed the title to Fingolfin? And Tolkien does seem to make an issue of it; he makes sure to note that it passed from Fingolfin to Fingon to Turgon and then to Gil-Galad and he pointedly refers to Gil-Galad as the last High King of the Noldor.
He also refers to the Curse of Mandos and mentions how, ironically, the title passed from the House of Feanor to his brothers (Finarfin retaining the title in Tuna). Feanor thought the brothers were out to usurp him, but that wasn't the case. Nevertheless, as Mandos foretold, his House would bereft of the title due to Feanor's own actions.
So even if there is no political or military value to the title, there is a symbolic value to it that meant something to the Noldor.
Might makes Right!
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Felagund
Rohan
Feb 25 2015, 8:18pm
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more on the Lord & Lady (plus Aredhel)
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A quick skim of the sources indicates that Galadriel, more often than not, was referred to as Lady: the White Lady, the Lady of the Golden Wood, or simply Lady Galadriel. All figurative stuff, in the sense that Squire mentions elsewhere in the thread.
As for other titles, it all gets a bit confusing (above and beyond the figurative), not least due to the wonderful but hydra-like "Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn" of Unfinished Tales. There she is described as the co-ruler of Eregion, along with Celeborn (Lady Galadriel of Eregion, perhaps?), before Celebrimbor (under the influence of Annatar) usurps our favourite power couple. After the death of King Amroth of Lorien, Galadriel and Celeborn become its co-rulers "but they took neither the title of King of Queen; for they said that they were only guardians...". The Silmarillion chips in with its own contradiction: "A queen she [Galadriel] was of the woodland elves". More in tune with the "guardian" version of events, Galadriel proves her spiritual fortitude when she rejects the One Ring, when offered by Frodo, by explicitly ruling out being a queen: ""You will give me the Ring freely! In place of a Dark Lord you will set up a Queen!" (LotR / FotR).
I can't find a specific reference to her being called a princess (although that's how we naturally interpret her, given that she was the daughter and grand-daughter of kings) - but it may just be that I don't have enough source material on my shelves. It is implied, in The Silmarilion, when she is described as standing tall "among the contending princes [of the Noldor]" at Túna in the aftemath of the Rape of the Silmarils, and again when she is specifically named as one of the leaders of Fingolfin's host that set out from Valinor.
As for Celeborn, he's in much the same boat. Lord and co-ruler of Lorien, he is also described in The Silmarillion as a kinsman of Thingol and a "prince of Doriath". More light is shed on this in the aforementioned "Concerning G & C", where he is described as Thingol's great nephew - the grandson of Thingol's younger brother, Elmo.
And finally, a quick word on Aredhel, since she has been raised elsewhere. Like Galadriel, she was also described as the White Lady, with a little further embellishment: the White Lady of the Noldor, and the White Lady of Gondolin. Again, it all comes across as figurative rather than formally titular in the ruling sense. I can only find a reference to Galadriel being called the White Lady (strangely, by Eorl) in the Third Age, so there was never a need to argue over who was the true 'White Lady'!
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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