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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
In terms of different peoples' reactions to BOTFA
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Legomir
Rivendell

Feb 8 2015, 7:19pm

Post #1 of 52 (1718 views)
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In terms of different peoples' reactions to BOTFA Can't Post

This is a bit of a vent post, but does it seem to anyone else like people on the Internet (outside this forum) and people in everyday life (for lack of a better phrase) have completely contrasting views on the last film? Basically, every single person I know where I live, all my friends, all my family, and every acquaintance I've asked, has said that they absolutely loved BOTFA, thought it was the best of the three, and was an all-around good movie. Then I hop online and on most article comments and other forums people are almost unanimously saying that the film was absolutely terrible and had few if any redeeming qualities. I suppose it could be a vocal minority, but it just seems weird.


Glorfindela
Valinor


Feb 8 2015, 7:45pm

Post #2 of 52 (1139 views)
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Same [In reply to] Can't Post

Everyone around me (in the UK) also says they love the film. Basically, the venom is one of the glories of the Internet and appears to apply to all popular films (as well as other popular things). I was reading an article the other day about the extreme negativity (rather than constructive criticism, which can be interesting) and the actions of trolls on various sites, and how this has become such a huge phenomenon online. It isn't pretty, and it's why I tend to avoid even looking at different film sites and the like.

I wouldn't even bother looking at sites for subjects I dislike (or even like but am not passionate about), and I can't fathom why other people waste their time doing this, let alone why they want to troll. Perhaps they feel inadequate and frustrated in their 'real lives'? Maybe they are unable to express themselves in their places of work or at home? Perhaps they are mostly mischievous children? It is all rather odd, though.


In Reply To
This is a bit of a vent post, but does it seem to anyone else like people on the Internet (outside this forum) and people in everyday life (for lack of a better phrase) have completely contrasting views on the last film? Basically, every single person I know where I live, all my friends, all my family, and every acquaintance I've asked, has said that they absolutely loved BOTFA, thought it was the best of the three, and was an all-around good movie. Then I hop online and on most article comments and other forums people are almost unanimously saying that the film was absolutely terrible and had few if any redeeming qualities. I suppose it could be a vocal minority, but it just seems weird.



DanielLB
Immortal


Feb 8 2015, 8:06pm

Post #3 of 52 (1096 views)
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No - there's no uniform opinion on this forum, any other forum, or in real life. [In reply to] Can't Post

I tolerate the film. My brother-in-law loves it. My other brother-in-law cringed the whole way through it. Colleagues do not like it. My brothers and sister enjoy it, though think it is the weakest of all 6 movies. My Mum adores it. Other friends also vary from hate to like. My partner think it is ok.

In my opinion, negativity/positivity does not dominate the forum nor people in everyday life. There are a wide mixture of opinions, along a vast spectrum. As it should be.


(This post was edited by DanielLB on Feb 8 2015, 8:08pm)


moreorless
Gondor

Feb 8 2015, 8:35pm

Post #4 of 52 (1131 views)
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The Hobbit films are as loved as LOTR BUT... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Everyone around me (in the UK) also says they love the film. Basically, the venom is one of the glories of the Internet and appears to apply to all popular films (as well as other popular things). I was reading an article the other day about the extreme negativity (rather than constructive criticism, which can be interesting) and the actions of trolls on various sites, and how this has become such a huge phenomenon online. It isn't pretty, and it's why I tend to avoid even looking at different film sites and the like.

I wouldn't even bother looking at sites for subjects I dislike (or even like but am not passionate about), and I can't fathom why other people waste their time doing this, let alone why they want to troll. Perhaps they feel inadequate and frustrated in their 'real lives'? Maybe they are unable to express themselves in their places of work or at home? Perhaps they are mostly mischievous children? It is all rather odd, though.






I do think theres a good case to be made that the net often is not a very good reflection of wider opinion. It might sound a little harsh but honestly I think when it comes to comment on things like film a lot of whats posted on the net isn't actually driven by a love or interest in those subjects so much as it is an desire for a bit of an ego boost.

As I'v said before I think that's why the hatred of Lucas's prequals really mushroomed into something that's become almost a culture onto itself. They represented a "safe" area of criticism that would be "cinema experts" could rail against knowing them really didn't need to make that insightful a point to get agreement and support. To a lesser degree the sequals to the Matrix fall into this category as well for me.

I think there was a very strong desire for the Hobbit films to follow suit well before they were actually released. Jackson and Tolkien were no longer the "in thing" and rumours of production problems were there.

The real giveaway for me is that a lot of those being critical of Jacksons films that look to point to consensus of a negative reaction don't actually agree in there criticism at all, indeed a lot of the criticism is actually diametrically opposed. I remember with AUJ for example some of those being critical loved the first half and disliked the second and some exactly the reverse.


(This post was edited by moreorless on Feb 8 2015, 8:39pm)


DanielLB
Immortal


Feb 8 2015, 8:41pm

Post #5 of 52 (1055 views)
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At the end of the day ... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I wouldn't even bother looking at sites for subjects I dislike (or even like but am not passionate about), and I can't fathom why other people waste their time doing this, let alone why they want to troll. Perhaps they feel inadequate and frustrated in their 'real lives'? Maybe they are unable to express themselves in their places of work or at home? Perhaps they are mostly mischievous children? It is all rather odd, though.


(This excludes blatant trolls ...)

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and they are allowed to express it (reasonably) on any platform they wish. I am sure you ruffled a few feathers of Tauriel fans when you repeatedly expressed opinion on the character after DOS was released. Your opinion of Tauriel, my opinion of Alfrid and and Joe Blogg's opinion of Peter Jackson are all entitled to be here, whether we love, enjoy, dislike or hate the movie. I certainly wouldn't want to see any forum become "everyone is entitled to an opinion provided it conforms to mine". Disagreements drive discussion; they drive people to inquire further, to seek new information, and actually improve chances of finding a common ground.

Yup, I don't really like the movie. And I will "admit" that I don't stay on TORn because of the movies anymore; I stay because of the people I get to have fun with. I'm not a troll, nor am I frustrated with my real life, and neither am I a mischievous child.

One has to remember that an opinion on this forum does not have any real value. Just accept that we all lie somewhere on the spectrum between good and bad move, and no one else but ourselves occupies a single space on that spectrum. And it is ok to let everyone know where we are on that spectrum.

Everyone is right. No one is wrong.

Smile


(This post was edited by DanielLB on Feb 8 2015, 8:53pm)


Legomir
Rivendell

Feb 8 2015, 8:59pm

Post #6 of 52 (990 views)
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I'd never want to stop discussion [In reply to] Can't Post

To me, one of the best, if not the best, aspect of the Internet is talking with people around the world and seeing their opinions. I'd never want there to be an "everyone is entitled to their opinion provided it conforms to mine" attitude on forums. My big problem is that many websites (NOTE: NOT this one) have just been negativity straight across the board and phrased in such a way that discussion doesn't happen. (For example: "Tauriel sucks. Alfrid sucks. It is known. Nothing will change my opinion.") That is what a lot of it seems to be on places like IMDB.
Though it may just be trolls, the thing I was trying to note is the huge difference in reactions to BOTFA between forums like that and the people I've talked to in real life. I'm sure that there are many who aren't online who didn't like the film, but it isn't as all-across-the-board as some people online (again, not here) seem to want everyone to believe.


Legomir
Rivendell

Feb 8 2015, 9:02pm

Post #7 of 52 (992 views)
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I think you have a point [In reply to] Can't Post

There are plenty of people who seem to have been hoping the films would fail even before it came out. For AUJ, with the first trailer I saw people complaining that it didn't show enough of the action. With the second trailer I saw the same people complaining that it showed too much action. I'm not sure why people would want Jackson to fail, but it does seem to be the case. I also agree with what you said about the Star Wars prequels and the Matrix sequels.


DanielLB
Immortal


Feb 8 2015, 9:18pm

Post #8 of 52 (975 views)
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The antipode is just as bad. [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
My big problem is that many websites (NOTE: NOT this one) have just been positive straight across the board and phrased in such a way that discussion doesn't happen.(For example: "Tauriel's great. Alfrid's amazing. It is known. Nothing will change my opinion.")


Perhaps you are lucky (?) to be surrounded by people with a like-minded opinion. I enjoy being surrounded by people with different opinions. I don't think anything is universal when it comes down to Tolkien's books and PJ's movies. It's a bit like marmite.


(This post was edited by DanielLB on Feb 8 2015, 9:19pm)


Bishop
Gondor


Feb 8 2015, 9:36pm

Post #9 of 52 (930 views)
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Great post, thanks [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Bishop
Gondor


Feb 8 2015, 9:39pm

Post #10 of 52 (946 views)
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I would be careful [In reply to] Can't Post

Not to conflate anticipation of something based on disappointment from the previous 2 films, and outright hope that the 3rd movie would fail. I for one never encountered anyone who just blatantly wished that the film would fail.


Arannir
Valinor


Feb 8 2015, 9:49pm

Post #11 of 52 (941 views)
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No. [In reply to] Can't Post

Overall in my environment the reactions have been pretty mixed.

Four people I am friends with are also big Tolkien fans and have been fans of PJ's movies.

One has loathed the adaptation of TH from AUJ... another one liked all three though said they could have been better and the two others are close to my opinion: having enjoyed AUJ and DoS, hoping everything would come together in BotFA and thinking that the last one totally failed to do so and highlighted that the trilogy decision was a big mistake.


Most others pretty much watched them as "just another blockbuster". Some liked them, some not so much.

I feel there is still a huge appreciation for the way Middle-earth was brought to life by PJ and his team. And the aspect most loved by all is still the world-building and the design. I have heard a lot of severe criticism regarding the story, though, especially regarding BotFA (and its impact on the whole trilogy).



Yes, there are many boards infested with trolls.


But there are many boards were people discuss movies with a lot of passion and great insight where "The Hobbit" hasn't been met with great enthusiasm either. And not by people who decided before they wouldn't like them... no, many actually had waited for these movies for years.

There are many who enjoyed them, no question, numbers also show that there is still a huge audience for these movies, particularly outside of the US.


But the less stellar reception (by all more or less objective indicators we can use) is simply undeniable and not just due to and by "internet trolls" (which shouldn't change anyone's own perception of the movie, of course).

So I agree with Daniel's great, great post.

No one is right and no one is wrong. But reducing the "negativity" towards this trilogy to trolls or/and people who "fail to like" this movie /and the two others) is probably not telling the whole story.



"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



(This post was edited by Arannir on Feb 8 2015, 9:54pm)


Ataahua
Forum Admin / Moderator


Feb 8 2015, 9:53pm

Post #12 of 52 (925 views)
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Well, [In reply to] Can't Post

any friends and family who have spoken to me about BOTFA have outright loved it, but it's possible that some people saw the film and didn't like it but haven't said anything to me out of respect of me being a Tolkien fan. Which is thoughtful, but a bit sad as I have few chances to discuss Tolkien and Middle-earth IRL.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Glorfindela
Valinor


Feb 8 2015, 10:00pm

Post #13 of 52 (912 views)
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I agree with all this [In reply to] Can't Post

Although I was talking in general about what is going on on the Internet, and seems to be affecting any popular film. On every site I look at (about a variety of 'issues'), it seems that there is venom and rudeness in the responses. It doesn't even seem to come down to 'opinion' about a given subject, but appears to derive from a kind of 'oneupmanship', with one poster attempting to outdo another in rudeness. It is pointless to participate in such negative discussions, because the posters don't actually want to discuss anything sensibly. Constructive criticism is another thing entirely, and can bring about interesting discussions, but I'm not talking about that – it appears to be quite rare by comparison with 'troll'-type post on sites.

With regard to the Hobbit films in particular, I agree with you that there is no consensus, with some posters criticising things that others do not, and vice versa. That's just down to a matter of taste – I frequently said that I didn't like two elements of DoS because they ruined that film for me. I became bored with being negative (and as I mentioned in another post others probably got fed up with it, too). I decided to stop focusing on the things that bothered me (though still occasionally mentioned them). I actually feel happier taking that sort of stance.

The other thing I've noticed with regard to discussions about films is that they appear to come in waves. At one time the Eagles may be the flavour, at another time Smaug, at yet another, beards, or 'I could make a better film by cutting this one', too much CGI, to many prosthetic Orcs, and so on. Each of these themes dies away, then comes back again…

Oh, well – I'm in a hurry, so am probably not making much sense.


In Reply To
I do think theres a good case to be made that the net often is not a very good reflection of wider opinion. It might sound a little harsh but honestly I think when it comes to comment on things like film a lot of whats posted on the net isn't actually driven by a love or interest in those subjects so much as it is an desire for a bit of an ego boost.

As I'v said before I think that's why the hatred of Lucas's prequals really mushroomed into something that's become almost a culture onto itself. They represented a "safe" area of criticism that would be "cinema experts" could rail against knowing them really didn't need to make that insightful a point to get agreement and support. To a lesser degree the sequals to the Matrix fall into this category as well for me.

I think there was a very strong desire for the Hobbit films to follow suit well before they were actually released. Jackson and Tolkien were no longer the "in thing" and rumours of production problems were there.

The real giveaway for me is that a lot of those being critical of Jacksons films that look to point to consensus of a negative reaction don't actually agree in there criticism at all, indeed a lot of the criticism is actually diametrically opposed. I remember with AUJ for example some of those being critical loved the first half and disliked the second and some exactly the reverse.



Glorfindela
Valinor


Feb 8 2015, 10:07pm

Post #14 of 52 (896 views)
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Note that I was talking generally [In reply to] Can't Post

And specifically about the nastiness of many posts one encounters on the Internet (very many of which are not, as I said, in the least constructive). I was not referring to posts relevant only to these films.


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Feb 8 2015, 10:15pm

Post #15 of 52 (903 views)
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I don't particularly object to rudeness, myself. [In reply to] Can't Post

If I was going to take a swipe at "net culture", for me it would be aimed at what I perceive to be a frequent stance of asceticism or rarified taste, where anything which is not deemed to be the absolute pinnacle of achievement is worthy of a face-palm, cringe or leaving the cinema.

I can only imagine the lives and achievements of those who comment from such a vantage point and with their personal bars set so high.


Thrain II
Lorien


Feb 8 2015, 10:15pm

Post #16 of 52 (897 views)
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No... [In reply to] Can't Post

I know many people who think BOFA was the worst of the three. But also some think it's the best. I would rate it behind AUJ and in front of DOS. Smile

I think that most of the people who aren't book fans think of it as the worst since it lacks so many resolutions. But I may be wrong.

Personally I was hoping that BOFA would 'redeem' this trilogy with major audiences, but it is somehow widely considered the worst of the three. Unsure


AshNazg
Gondor


Feb 8 2015, 10:18pm

Post #17 of 52 (916 views)
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You 'tolerate it' ? [In reply to] Can't Post

Could you elaborate on that?

I don't like being too rude, I respect others' opinions, but I'd like to express my own - I personally dislike the film the more I see it. But, it's a similar situation to the animated Hobbit; where consciously I can see that it's a terrible adaptation, but my love of the source material, and just being able to see someone's vision of Middle-earth, allows me to still enjoy the experience of watching it, despite its overbearing (in my opinion) flaws.

So as a movie, for me it's a big fail and a disappointment. But as a fan of the world, I enjoy watching it as the final piece of the puzzle and as a representation of someone else's vision. Plus the odd things that the film gets right makes the whole thing worth it - from a fan perspective.


Glorfindela
Valinor


Feb 8 2015, 10:23pm

Post #18 of 52 (880 views)
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I don't like it much [In reply to] Can't Post

It seems that every time someone posts a reasoned article on the Internet, it appears to be followed by a barrage of generally antagonistic, rude and/or vulgar responses. That's the sort of thing I don't understand. It seems that a huge number of people engage in such behaviour, and I really don't know why. It's not pretty, as I said.

It's not that these people's bars are 'set high', by any means. It's rather that there is something lacking in their 'real lives' to make them behave in such a way.


In Reply To
If I was going to take a swipe at "net culture", for me it would be aimed at what I perceive to be a frequent stance of asceticism or rarified taste, where anything which is not deemed to be the absolute pinnacle of achievement is worthy of a face-palm, cringe or leaving the cinema.

I can only imagine the lives and achievements of those who comment from such a vantage point and with their personal bars set so high.



burrahobbit
Rohan


Feb 8 2015, 10:32pm

Post #19 of 52 (913 views)
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The reaction to the film was mixed [In reply to] Can't Post

Internet forums are a really biased selection, so I wouldn't trust anything from there.

But I think critics are a reasonably good way to gauge general reaction to a movie. Yes critics are a bit biased towards the establishment, but they are not "fans" or "haters", most critics just say what they thought.

And BotFA has quite a big spread of different views. There's no consensus, with as many people liking it as posting mixed reviews-
http://www.metacritic.com/movie/the-hobbit-the-battle-of-the-five-armies/critic-reviews

Compare that to a critical hit, like fellowship, clear consensus towards very positive reviews-
http://www.metacritic.com/movie/the-lord-of-the-rings-the-fellowship-of-the-ring/critic-reviews

So I think the "absolutely terrible" reaction is very much a minority internet thing, but the more general "it was OK" perspective is a genuine common reaction to the movie.


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Feb 9 2015, 2:46am

Post #20 of 52 (818 views)
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On the subject of (Internet) Trolls [In reply to] Can't Post

I do think there are some people out there who just literally get off on saying hateful things and always having the last word - to them, winning the argument (even if the "win" is all in their mind) is FAR more important than the subject they are arguing about. I used to frequent a certain political site, but I ended up bailing on it because most people weren't interested in any kind of discussion, and certainly weren't willing to "agree to disagree." It was a verbal slug-fest, and it got old real fast. I pretty much go to a certain weight-loss site and TORN for social media. There's almost none of that on the weight-loss site, and I honestly haven't seen a whole lot of that here either. My personal opinion is that AUJ and DOS were terrific, even if they were very different movies, both in pacing and in deviation from the storyline. BOTFA wasn't terrible IMO, and parts of it were amazing, but I have to call it the most disappointing of the three. I've still seen it 4 times, took my brother to see it today for his birthday. He's not read the book and didn't know about the deaths; they really moved him. I think that says something about the quality of BOTFA, he may have liked the movie more than I did.

The absolute worst thing I ever read on TORN was a so-called movie review of DOS, where the author trashed the movie and called everyone who didn't agree with him a "fanboy who lived in his mother's basement." His biggest complaint, believe it or not, was that there were too many dwarves, and that they either should have killed off a few in AUJ or started with fewer to begin with. I seriously think he was just trying to bait people into an argument, and yeah I fell for it. But for the most part that doesn't happen here - and if it should start I will bail on this site, too.

Why yes, I DO look like Anna Friel!


moreorless
Gondor

Feb 9 2015, 6:07am

Post #21 of 52 (777 views)
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Add in a health dose of sheeplike mentality... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
If I was going to take a swipe at "net culture", for me it would be aimed at what I perceive to be a frequent stance of asceticism or rarified taste, where anything which is not deemed to be the absolute pinnacle of achievement is worthy of a face-palm, cringe or leaving the cinema.

I can only imagine the lives and achievements of those who comment from such a vantage point and with their personal bars set so high.


To start with I'd like to point out if people didn't guess that I somehow messed up the title of the previous post that should have read that the Hobbit films "aren't" as popular as LOTR but more popular than many net responses claim.

I would tend to agree with your point but I think you also see this filtered though a "whats hot and whats not" mentality. Theres a desire to appear cultured on the net but a fear of being asked to justify your tastes, hence picking "targets" you know you won't be challenged on.


DanielLB
Immortal


Feb 9 2015, 7:11am

Post #22 of 52 (781 views)
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Sure. [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Could you elaborate on that?


I don't love the movie, but neither do I hate it. There are scenes of pure gold (literally) in the movie; some of the best of the entire hexology. But by and large, the movie is messy. Of all 6 movies, it is the only one that I cringed through (and yet I love the Goblin-king), the only one I am embarrassed to watch, and the only one where I have come out thinking that they didn't do the book justice. As a movie, it is just bland. I wouldn't recommend it to a friend or colleague.

I "tolerate" it because it exists. I will watch it in the future because it is part of PJ's Middle-earth (which I love), but I certainly can't indulge in it. At the same time, you won't find me ranting everywhere about it (at least, I hope not!)

Smile


lurtz2010
Rohan

Feb 9 2015, 7:30am

Post #23 of 52 (776 views)
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What's so wrong with it? [In reply to] Can't Post

And how is it a mess? I thought it was the least messy out of all of them and was the most solid theatrical edition so far.


DanielLB
Immortal


Feb 9 2015, 9:13am

Post #24 of 52 (760 views)
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I will be brief. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
And how is it a mess? I thought it was the least messy out of all of them and was the most solid theatrical edition so far.


Everything about Alfrid, the Master of Lake-town, Legolas and Dain; the Ogres and kamikaze trolls; the nonsensical were-worms; the pointless gallivanting journey to Gundabad; the anti-climax of Dol Guldur; the battle which the movies is named after (I still have no idea how the battle ended); and the clear lack of storyline resolutions. (Other niggles, but only minor, include Bain, Radagast, Beorn and Bolg, for various different reasons).

I'd much rather talk about what I do enjoy from it - Bilbo, Gandalf, and Balin. The last 5 minutes of the movie are some of my favourite Middle-earth minutes of all time.


CathrineB
Rohan


Feb 9 2015, 9:44am

Post #25 of 52 (769 views)
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Fans [In reply to] Can't Post

I think there's a lot to do with who are fans and who are not though. I've been a fan for like 12 years now and I was hilariously disappointed with the movie and understand a lot of the - not hatred, but dislike of the final movie because it's so unfinished and bad desicions made. I am still at a point where I don't like to read hate though. I still want to defend the Hobbit because I love the movies, but I was so hugely let down by BotfA. It's very frustrating.

Not sure what people around here thinks of it. Seems very mixed. Many seem to agree with the whole "something is missing" part and the potentional for the movie was huge and has been completely ignored. Others seemed to have either loved it or scoffed at it. Basically if they didn't like the two previous movies they weren't going to like this one anyway. It's just that they managed to get a lot of people that liked the two first movies not to enjoy this one...
Wow i'm rambling sorry.

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