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boldog
Rohan
Feb 8 2015, 9:26am
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Why didn't Sauron just go to Gundabad instead of Dol Guldur?
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So the way I see Saurons intentions played out in the films are like this.
He stays in Dol Guldur in secrecy to build himself an army. His intentions are to take over the eastern frontiers so he can establish himself in Angmar.
But why would he establish himself in Dol Guldur in the first place? Especially with little power? Dol Guldur is not in a very convenient spot for him. He has Lorien just to the west, and the woodland realm a little further north. And in terms of allies, Gundabad and Moria are the closest, but they have to go out of their way to get to Dol Guldur, which is in the middle of a dense forest.
So this got me thinking. Wouldn't it have been 10000 times better for Sauron if he just went to Gundabad instead of Dol Guldur? He has a well established orc stronghold in his grips, as well as easy access to Angmar. Not to mention that he will have easy connection to all the orcs of the misty, and Grey mountains, and be far away from potential threats to his rising power.
It just seems to be a little bit silly on his behalf. Not just the movies, but even the books. Why did he have to go to Dol Guldur? He would have been much better off in Gundabad.
Thoughts?
Azog and Bolg. That is all I can say.............
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dormouse
Half-elven
Feb 8 2015, 9:58am
Post #2 of 24
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I've never thought about it before, but I'd say it's a matter of timing.
According to the Tale of Years, Sauron established himself in secret at Dol Guldur around 1050 in the Third Age, when the 'shadow fell on the Greenwood'. It's in the centuries after that that orcs begin to multiply in the mountains and elsewhere, the Nazgul re-emerge and their cheif goes north to Angmar, and later still they begin preparing Mordor. Dol Guldur's strategic - it gave Sauron the secrecy he needed in a site between Mordor in the south, his previous and eventual stronghold, Angmar in the north, which he hopes to re-establish, and the various orc strongholds. It's also closest to the place where the Ring was lost.
Others may have a better idea, that's mine!
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DanielLB
Immortal
Feb 8 2015, 10:13am
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Mount Gundbad is already occupied by Bolg's army. Yes, it has the vast numbers of Orcs, but what would Sauron achieve by taking occupancy there?
Sauron wanted to corner all the Free Peoples of Middle-earth: Mount Gundabad was a threat to the North and Minas Morgul was a threat to the South. Sauron returned to Dol Guldur so that he was a deliberate threat to Lorien, Erebor and Thranduil's Realm.
Surely it makes more sense to make your weaker points stronger, than putting all your eggs in one basket?
(This post was edited by DanielLB on Feb 8 2015, 10:14am)
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moreorless
Gondor
Feb 8 2015, 11:18am
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You could I spose also consider it easier to hide...
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Mount Gundbad is already occupied by Bolg's army. Yes, it has the vast numbers of Orcs, but what would Sauron achieve by taking occupancy there?
Sauron wanted to corner all the Free Peoples of Middle-earth: Mount Gundabad was a threat to the North and Minas Morgul was a threat to the South. Sauron returned to Dol Guldur so that he was a deliberate threat to Lorien, Erebor and Thranduil's Realm.
Surely it makes more sense to make your weaker points stronger, than putting all your eggs in one basket?
It would seem likely that any attempt to reoccupy Angmar would be less likely to go unnoticed where as Dol Guldor doesn't really seem to be somewhere that "the wise" are keeping that close a watch on.
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Feb 8 2015, 12:59pm
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He didn't by choice in the Movies did he?
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As far as I understand it, though I might have missed the point here, wasn't Dol Guldor were the Men of the North buried the Witch-King and the Nazgul? In fact, I think this is one area were the movies actually improved on the books. I always thought the Necromancer plotline a bit wooly. Why didn't Sauron just go to Mordor from the beginning and in a few centuries he would have made the place truly impregnable!
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Feb 8 2015, 2:05pm
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No the Nazgul were buried elsewhere, in the High Fells.
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For me, the most logical answer in both media is that Sauron wanted to establish a front, rather than isolated bases.
If Sauron had managed to create that front, stretching from Mordor to Angmar he could have moved troops and supplies with relative ease behind it and so made defence very difficult for the "goodies". In that sense DG is not badly located at all.
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MedwedtoBeorn
Rivendell
Feb 8 2015, 3:34pm
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He returned to Dol Guldor because of its proximity to the Ring or where it was lost. He knew it to be lost in the Anduin in that area and was searching for it.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Feb 8 2015, 4:28pm
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As Spriggan wrote, the tombs of the Nazgul were in the High Fells in the Misty Mountains on the east border of Rhudaur. The High Fells are not shown on any map, but were probably about half-way between Goblin-town and Mount Gundabad (adjacent to the Coldfells?).
Dol Guldur provided more secrecy than Gundabad, which would have been vulnerable to spying by the Great Eagles. It was also a cetral location from which Sauron could strike at Lothlorien, the Woodland Realm or Rohan; and it was not far from the Great East Road which granted access to Eriador through the High Pass.
"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.
"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet." - Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Feb 8 2015, 5:37pm
Post #9 of 24
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As others have noted, Dol Guldur occupies a very strategic location.
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Besides being able to potentially cut off several allies from reaching Gondor....his main target....he was also still looking for The One Ring and being close to the river Anduin and the Gladden Fields was vital.
Strategically, he could control the crossings of the river and could operate against Lorien, Rohan, Rivendell etc. piecemeal. Saruman's defection and forces allowed him to concentrate in the East.
Angmar was really "the witch king"s" reward to control and operte and he lost it. It is too far removed from the main theaters.
http://i.imgur.com/DFRgj.jpg
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Feb 8 2015, 5:39pm)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Feb 8 2015, 6:41pm
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Who knew what about the Ring when is one of areas that isn't very clear in the text.
We can probably say that this wasn't the reason Sauron set up there in the first place around TA 1,000. The two things we know (at least if Gandalf is right) are that Sauron had believed the Ring had been destroyed (slightly oddly) and by 2850 he knew the Ring had survived and was seeking it again. It is implied that Sauron did not make the Gladden Fields connection until shortly before the events of TH.
So, when and how Sauron moved from believing the Ring to have been destroyed to realising it had not been is, as far as I'm aware, an unknown.
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Feb 8 2015, 6:57pm
Post #11 of 24
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Do you mean "lost forever" or destroyed? I think Sauron would know if it was destroyed.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Feb 8 2015, 7:54pm
Post #12 of 24
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Seemingly not - hence I say is rather strange.
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From FOTR:
"And this is the dreadful chance, Frodo. He believed that the One had perished; that the Elves had destroyed it, as should have been done. But he knows now that it has not perished, that it has been found. So he is seeking it, seeking it, and all his thought is bent on it. It is his great hope and our great fear.'"
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Feb 8 2015, 7:58pm
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That would imply Sauron may not have understood that its destruction would leave him
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a mere whisper on the wind. OR, Gandalf is simply surmising (he would not know what Sauron thought) and he did not realize the magnitude of its impact if lost.
It seems to me that Sauron would know if the greater part of him had been destroyed. A sense of it still out there vs vanished.
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Feb 8 2015, 8:05pm)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Feb 8 2015, 8:22pm
Post #14 of 24
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It's rather tricky either way - the knowledge of the Ring is not the most tightly plotted element of the books.
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It's difficult either way.
If we accept that Gandalf is wrong, firstly this is unusual in the sense that the reader is expected to accept everything else he says on the matter and secondly, as there is no reveal. We simply have this throwaway mention and it's not touched upon again. Also by the time of the Council of Elrond there seem to be several folks, Gandalf included, who believe the effects of destroying the Ring would be impossible for Sauron to ignore - why would Gandalf find this credible only a few months before, with no new knowledge specified?
Alternatively, we are left with the idea that Gandalf has ended up knowing more about the Ring than Sauron himself (despite only a few years earlier being unable to pick the One out of a list of 19 options!)
It's a lot of road for the reader to cover to square the circle, whichever way we set out.
(This post was edited by Spriggan on Feb 8 2015, 8:31pm)
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Feb 8 2015, 8:39pm
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Others have discussed this knot before on other sites and the mystery remains
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http://scifi.stackexchange.com/...-know-about-the-ring
I think Gandalf is surmising as he does not have inside knowledge but the reader is left to try and figure it out. It may be the White Council just thought Sauron could never take physical form without the ring and did not understand the real impact of its destruction.
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Feb 8 2015, 8:39pm)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Feb 8 2015, 9:20pm
Post #16 of 24
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It's not really left for the reader to work out, it seems to me, but is presented as fact by a usually very reliable speaker.
We also have the puzzle of credibility. Even if Gandalf was wrong, he must have believed it a credible idea when he was talking to Frodo in Bag End. Yet, soon afterwards, he is part of the debate which lists several effects of destroying the Ring which would mean it would be incredible for Gandalf to believe what he suggested.
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Feb 8 2015, 10:58pm
Post #17 of 24
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Note how Gandalf said it - "And this is the dreadful chance, Frodo."
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A chance is his surmise...at least that is how I read it.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Feb 8 2015, 11:17pm
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The "dreadful chance" is the Ring emerging and being at risk of being reclaimed - Gandalf refers to it a couple of paragraphs earlier.
I'm not sure how it could connect to him guessing about Sauron's historical thoughts?!
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Feb 9 2015, 1:14am
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What I mean is that Gandalf cannot know the mind of Sauron, so when he says
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(Yes, immediately before, he is telling Frodo of the rings and that Sauron needs the One to regain his former power and command the other rings etc.)
"And this is the dreadful chance, Frodo. He believed the One had perished..."
Gandalf can only surmise what Sauron believed and none seem to understand the full ramifications of its destruction. Gandalf does not know if Sauron actually believed it lost or perished.
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Feb 9 2015, 1:15am)
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squiggle
Rivendell
Feb 9 2015, 5:53am
Post #20 of 24
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Could the deciding factor have been that Sauron just liked the place?
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He had history there, it was a good place for evil energy, it allowed him to keep pretty upto date with what was going on in Middle Earth, also it was in a part of Middle Earth that was relatively less corrupted than Mordor, so perhaps it had more life to be sucked dry in someway for his resurgence. Along with any 'hear say' about the one ring being more likely to be picked up as he was basically in the right part of Middle Earth to that.
There were any number of places obviously where he could of set up.
Would anyone have liked to have seen some kind of issue with Radagast and the nine of Sauron venting against him, the Witch King?
They would have known of Radagast and it IS ultimately mad Raddy, who despite his pre-occupations with Rabbits and Hedgehogs etc, half dreamily got things mobilised against Dol Guldur and consequently forced Sauron's hand before it became undefeatable from within even with all the luck of circumstance, Dragon death & Wizard meddlings in Dwarve quests.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Feb 9 2015, 8:34am
Post #21 of 24
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I'm still not sure how the "dreadful chance" line
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Relates to the surmise point?
But yes that was one of our original options. It seems a little implausible that the reader is intended to accept all the rest of Gandalf's pronouncements on the mind of Sauron as gospel but to reject this particular sentence as mistaken.
And then we still have the credibility shift to ponder.
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Feb 9 2015, 3:09pm
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It all hinges on what Gandalf could possibly know for certain about the
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thoughts of Sauron. Without the use of a palantir it is left for him to make best guesses / interpretations....hence surmises etc. based on what is known.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Feb 9 2015, 3:40pm
Post #23 of 24
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Sure - with you, to that extent.
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But it is an odd position to ask the reader, with no clues, to understand that Gandalf is totally wrong in his expressed view in this sentence but correct in everything else he says about Sauron's views.
We must also wonder how Gandalf, even if incorrect, could find this position plausible when shortly afterwards he discusses the effects of the destruction of the Ring in a way which makes it implausible.
It's rather like Gandalf saying, "Sauron believes I have claimed the Ring" and then saying "If I claimed the Ring the mountains of Mordor would crumble to dust". It's hard to see how Gandalf can hold both views!
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Feb 9 2015, 4:05pm
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Too much Old Toby Saruman would say!
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