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** 'The Fellowship of the Ring' ch. 9-0, 'At the Sign of the Prancing Pony': Origins and Development
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sador
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Feb 8 2015, 1:04pm

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** 'The Fellowship of the Ring' ch. 9-0, 'At the Sign of the Prancing Pony': Origins and Development Can't Post

To the fellowship of the Room, hail and well-met! (or less formally, “Hiya, fellas”!)
As I have not enlisted to lead a chapter when CuriousG made the list, I offered taking over this chapter from Brethil. She graciously assented; so here we are – worse luck for the horses and bannisters.
Leading this chapter feels odd, since as far as I remember, entmaiden’s discussion of it eight years ago was the first discussion I’ve properly followed on TORn (even if my participation wasn’t consistent); it is fair to say that I was hooked. I participated much more fully in Curious’ magnificent discussion in 2010. See also squire’s brilliant footerama for links to previous discussions.

Introduction
The town of Bree was invented, almost as an afterthought, to solve a narrative problem.
After the adventures in Tom Bombadil’s land, Tolkien realized the hobbits still need to get to Rivendell alone, but somehow be informed of events. Accordingly, in a note to himself sketching the plot, he wrote (The Return of the Shadow, p. 126): “They sleep at the inn and hear news of Gandalf. Jolly landlord. Drinking song” – Bree was intended to be a pleasant resting-place, where they would get news from Gandalf.
In the chapter as actually written, all the three elements Tolkien put down have remained constant, including a fourth: a suspicious-looking character who asked to join them, and turned out to be a most valuable guide. In this thread I will delineate in brief the developing of those four elements, according to the drafts and notes Christopher Tolkien had published in HoME vol. VI-VII, The Return of the Shadow and The Treason of Isengard. Each of these topics will be a different subthread, to help focusing the discussion (and artificially raise my post-count…). I will post them all together, so if anyone wants to read the whole subject in one go – it will be simpler to read them in Flat Mode. The next three threads will deal respectively with the plot, the characters and the broader significance of some elements in this chapter.

Outline
As is well-known, The Lord of the Rings had a long and tortuous beginning, with JRRT writing and re-writing the first chapters again and again. In volumes VI-IX of The History of Middle-earth, Christopher Tolkien retraces his father's work, and publishes many of the discarded drafts, to show as faithfully as possible the development of the book. Naturally, we have to take in trust his assertion that nothing of importance was omitted; but as it is, these volumes provide us with a treasure of information, well-organised and well-presented.
Before beginning with this thread, I'll offer an overview of the drafts, and deal with one of the most confusing obstacles to achieving a clear view of the development of LotR – the constant changing of the heroes' names.
Christopher presents the drafts according to 'phases' – four altogether. In fact, there were many more phases of writing – each beginning with a new burst of creativity, and petering out after some time; what Christopher means is stages of the story's development. The first three phases are presented in HoME vol. VI, The Return of the Shadow.
* * *
First phase (beginning on Decemeber 1937) – After several attempts to get started, Tolkien finally got beyond the farewell party. At this stage, Bilbo was conceived to have disappeared from the Shire some time before the beginning of the story; the farewell party, with the disappearing stunt, was given by his nephew Bingo Bolger-Baggins, who followed it with travelling though the Shire with his cousins Frodo and Odo Took, during which he encountered the Black Rider and Gildor; at this stage, Tolkien realized the Ring is of utmost importance, and he wrote a conversation between Bingo and Gandalf about it, and about Gollum. This conversation ends with Gandalf (!) suggesting that Bingo should disappear suddenly, as he did in the party; it is unclear where Tolkien intended to add it.
The three hobbits go on to Buckland, where they meet the fourth of the party - Marmaduke Brandybuck. The episodes of Maggot's farm, the bath, the detour through the Old Forest, the Willow-man at the Withywindle, Tom Bombadil and the Barrow-wights are already present in embryonic form. at Bree, they meet with the hobbit Ranger Trotter, and accept him as a guide. The attack on the hobbits' rooms is already present, as well as the further one on Weathertop – even the idea of Trotter singing of Beren and Lúthien! Then they are met by Glorfindel, and Bingo barely makes in to the Ford of Rivendell. This phase petered out after Bingo met Glóin at the feast.
At about this time, JRRT wrote a series of notes which he called Queries and Alternations, which is reproduced and discussed in The Return of the Shadow pps. 220-229. In this document, Tolkien considered changing the name 'Bingo' to 'Frodo', but decided against it. The most important development was the clear identification of Bilbo's ring as the one missing ring, the most potent of them all – concluding that it was the Ruling Ring; and also that the Dark Lord knows of Gandalf and hates him.
* * *
In the second phase it was Bilbo who gave the farewell party, and left Bag-end and the Ring to his nephew Bingo Baggins. The second chapter is the source of our The Shadow of the Past, with its introduction of Sam Gamgee; both his conversation with Ted Sandyman and his being caught by Gandalf eavesdropping were written at this stage, in virtually their final versions. Bingo and Sam's companions are now Frodo Took, Odo Bolger and Meriadoc Brandybuck. In the middle of this phase of writing, JRRT wanted to drop Odo altogether, but wrote "Christopher wants Odo kept" (p. 299); so he was supposed to have gone ahead with Merry, and then join them when entering the Old Forest. Crickhollow is introduced, and the conspiracy unmasked in it.
In this version, when Crickhollow is attacked it is standing empty – but the Riders are confronted by Gandalf, who arrived before them. In a later change, Odo was supposed to have remained at Crickhollow, and after the attack he rides north behind Gandalf. This phase ends at the house of Tom Bombadil, before reaching the Barrow-downs or Bree.
* * *
Christopher estimates the third phase was begun on October 1938; it begins with a Foreword Concerning Hobbits. The main character is finally named Frodo Baggins, and his comrades are Folco Took, Odo Took-Bolger (later named just Odo Bolger), Meriadoc Brandybuck and Sam Gamgee. Odo decides to remain behind only when hearing that they are going to the Old Forest (his fears are the forerunners of Fredegar's in the book; but in the book, Fredegar was planned to stay behind from the outset) – and Frodo leaves a letter to Gandalf with him. In this phase, our chapter received its name.
Around December 1938 Tolkien reached the Rivendell chapter, and then stopped; in August 1939 he considered changing the whole story from the beginning again, and wrote a series of notes and drafts for the new story (discussed by Christopher in a chapter named New uncertainties and new projections) – but he rejected those ideas, and continued up to Balin's tomb – where, as he wrote in the Foreword to the Second Edition:
"I halted for a long while. It was almost a year later when I went on and so came to Lothlórien and the Great River late in 1941".
* * *
When Tolkien returned to writing, he didn't begin with The Bridge of Khazad-dûm; before that, he re-wrote those chapters to be pretty much what we know now. This process is described the first chapters of HoME vol. VII, The Treason of Isengard.
As his thoughts about the story grew darker, Tolkien probed for a satisfactory explanation why Frodo set out alone. In the first chapter of The Treason of Isengard, Gandalf's Delay (pages 5-15), Christopher Tolkien describes his father's developing ideas, and sketches of the plot before he resumed writing.
From an early stage, Tolkien decided that Gandalf was held captive somewhere. At first, he was supposed to get entangled in Fangorn and held by the evil Giant Treebeard (The Return of the Shadow p. 363). At one point, Tolkien even considered Treebeard taking Frodo as prisoner (RotS pps. 382-384).
Then Gandalf was supposed to be pursued by Black Riders and besieged in the Western Tower. This is the origin of Frodo's dream (The Treason of Isengard p. 33-36); later that dream was divided in two – in the book, Frodo dreams of the Tower at Crickhollow, and of Gandalf's captivity the following night, at the house of Tom Bombadil.
Because of his adventure, Gandalf was supposed to come late, and meet the hobbit left at Crickhollow (Pergerin Boffin; then Fredegar/Hamilcar Bolger). The other important development is that Hamilcar (shortened 'Ham' – the name JRRT decided on at this stage) was supposed to be abducted by the Black Riders, and rescued by Gandalf.
Then it turned out that he was kept by the wizard Saramond the White, who betrayed him and gave over (again) to Treebeard. At this stage, Tolkien decided to cut out the story of Ham Bolger's adventures altogether, and to finally name him 'Fredegar'; likewise, the name 'Peregrin Took' was finalized at this stage. Tolkien re-worked the name and story of the traitor wizard, and then carried the story along (the other major change decided upon at this stage was making Trotter a Man rather than a hobbit; this will be discussed in the post "The mysterious ranger").
I hope this summary made sense somehow; it isn't easy to condense so much into a couple of pages.
To those unfamiliar with HoME – was this easy to understand? To those who do know the book – which mistakes did I make? There sure were some.

However, one thing strikes me about this whole play with the hobbits' names: the haphazard way they were arrived at. I mean, 'Frodo' is a name with special meaning, recalling Fróði of Norse legend (see here, and the discussion by Tom Shippey, The Road to Middle-eath pps. 204-209 or Author of the Century pps. 182-187) – but Tolkien seems to have resisted the notion of calling his hero by that name, preferring the ridiculous 'Bingo'; and while I realize the whole landscape described in appendix F, Of Translation, was a late development – Tolkien surely realized, that while 'Fredegar' is a Germanic name, and 'Odo' can also be a short version of a similar one – 'Hamilcar' is Phoenician! So the question arises:
Why was Tolkien so careless with the nomenclature of The Lord of the Rings at this stage?


(This post was edited by sador on Feb 8 2015, 1:05pm)


sador
Half-elven


Feb 8 2015, 1:06pm

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As I noted, in the first phase of writing, the party and the disappearing act were not thrown by Bilbo, but rather by his heir, Bingo Bolger-Baggins. Gandalf was simply leaving the Shire after the party, travelling with the Brandybucks; while Bingo going secretly on foot with two cousins. In The Return of the Shadow p. 102, when Bingo meets Marmaduke Brandybuck, he asks whether Gandalf left any message – but Marmaduke relates that the wizard had decided not to wait, saying "Bingo is now old enough and foolish enough to look after himself".
When coming to Bree, Gandalf was supposed to be incautiously talking about Bingo to the dwarves and elves he was travelling with, and being overheard by the hiding Trotter; he left a message with the Butterbur, telling Bingo to push forward and that he (Gandalf) will go slow. However, Trotter accosted him, so he left a letter for Bingo with him. After Bree, Gandalf goes slow indeed, and waits at Weathertop for three days before leaving.
What do you think of this wonderfully careless version of Gandalf? And of his opinion of Bingo?
Does it fit with the Gandalf we know from The Hobbit? If you do not think so, why not? Was Tolkien making the sequel a sillier book than its predecessor? Or is the Gandalf of The Hobbit coloured in our perception by the more serious final version of The Lord of the Rings, so that we fail to remember he is described as a much less exalted person?
But even in this version, the Black Riders were hot in pursuit of Bingo and his friends, and there were Barrow-wights not far from Bree – how could Gandalf remain so blissfully unaware of the danger?

In the second phase, the story didn't reach Bree; but in third phase, Gandalf encounters the Black Riders at Crickhollow, and then rides to Bree with Odo. He reaches the inn before Frodo, as Frodo took the detour through the Old Forest (which Gandalf knows). Butterbur describes:



Quote

But he winked at me, and didn't answer my questions. 'Hot drinks and warm beds!'
he croaked, and stumbled up the stairs.


Gandalf croaking?!? Why? did he catch a cold, or something?

Gandalf leaves with Butterbur the message that he is ahead, and that he is supposed to say that Baggins rode east with Gandalf (p. 339) a hint which Frodo fails to understand. As in the previous version, he leaves a letter with Trotter.
In another version written at the same stage, Gandalf's meeting with Harry at the gate is described, during which Harry tells him of the Black Riders passing through Bree (p. 344-345). This naturally makes the conversation with Butterbur is different, but the messages Gandalf leaves are essentially the same. Of course, being perfectly aware that danger is both behind and ahead, he does not propose to wait, but rather uses Odo as a decoy, personifying 'Baggins' and hoping that the Black Riders will follow him rather than Frodo.
Would this have worked? I mean, the Riders can sense the Ring, can't they? Won't they realize they've got the wrong hobbit? And anyway, after their encounters with the hobbits in the Shire, wouldn't they expect a larger party?
This is the first time Tolkien uses the idea of a decoy. This was of course changed, but this idea was used again with Pippin and Merry (unintentionally), and then the whole western theatre of the War seems to be one large diversion.
Any other cases?
As it turns out, the ruse had failed, because of Frodo's 'prank' with the Ring. Tough luck.

In the fourth phase, the idea that Gandalf was behind Frodo all the time was achieved. At first through his saving Ham Bolger, and finally he was simply too far behind after escaping from Isengard. So the whole concept of "They sleep at the inn and hear news of Gandalf" was finally abandoned. It was replaced by the idea of the letter Gandalf left with Butterbur – which will be discussed in the next chapter.
Is the story improved by this change?


(This post was edited by sador on Feb 8 2015, 1:12pm)


sador
Half-elven


Feb 8 2015, 1:08pm

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In the first draft, after the adventure in the Barrow, Tom recommends the hobbits stick to the Road, and spend the next night at the inn in Bree. Tom knows the innkeeper, Barnabas Butterbur, (called so after the name Timothy Titus was rejected) well: "Just you mention my name and he will treat you fairly" (The Return of the Shadow, p. 129-130).
Tolkien's first concept of Bree was of a town of a mixed population, men and hobbits:
"The nearest settled habitation of that large and mysterious race to the Shire… there were hobbits about, of course – some higher up on the slopres of the Bree-hill itself, and many in the valley of Combe on the east side… but our hobbits were not familiar with Bree-folk" (p. 132).
This was the first picture of Bree – very much in accordance with the first edition of The Hobbit, in which the dwarves and Bilbo's journey commences:



Quote

Things went on like this for quite a long while. There was a good deal of wide
respectable country to pass through, inhabited by decent respectable folk, men
or hobbits or elves or what not, with good roads, an inn or two, and every now
and then a dwarf, or a tinker, or a farmer ambling by on business. But after a
time they came to places where people spoke strangely…


(cited by Douglas Anderson, The Annotated Hobbit, p. 65, note 5).

But Tolkien had second thoughts, and changed Bree to be a land inhabited only by hobbits. Accordingly, when Bingo first meets Butterbur he is said to be "the largest and fattest hobbit that he had ever set eyes on in all his days in the well-fed Shire" (p. 134). Even the Rangers are hobbits – but wild ones, and their description as "no better than tramps" survived into our book.
More on the Rangers later; but regarding Butterbur – does he retain any hobbit-like traits in our book?
A riddle: what was this description of Butterbur transformed to?

Butterbur is clearly a "jolly landlord". He describes Tom Bombadil as "Mad and merry, but merrier than mad"; and abuses Nob as "wooly-footed slow-coach". He suspects the cover names Bingo invents (Hill, Rivers, Green and Brown) – which shows him to be quite intelligent. Later we realize this is because Gandalf had passed that way a few days before, and told him about the party. From the outset he is continually chattering, but complains of having no time to chat; even the self-depreciating "'Tis hard work for two legs, but I don’t get any thinner" is present from the first draft (p. 135).
The description of the meal is as in the present version, as well as Butterbur's invitation to join the company, by whom he is called 'Barney'. After Bingo's disappearing trick, Barnabas puts two and two together, and gives Bingo the message, with the information that Black Riders have come twice – one and then four.
Is Butterbur an endearing person? Or just a comical one?
I suppose many of the callers at an inn along the road would be considerably larger than the landlord, and consequently will resort to often bullying him. I would suppose Tolkien had an internal image of an overburdened, harried, ever-apologetic landlord.
Does the (man) Butterbur in the book project this image? Or was the character changed? If so, how?
Or is this simply reflective of the regular way patrons abused (or still do?) the owners of inns and taverns in Tolkien's time? In which case – how does this reflect in the changing of Butterbur, from man to hobbit and back?

In the Third phase, Bree is a town of Men, although there probably are hobbits around; I would suppose that even Nob was a man in this stage, but Christopher mentions nothing about this. In this stage of writing Harry the gatekeeper was introduced, as was Ganfdalf's riding up with Odo.
When Butterbur gives Frodo the news, he says that the day after Gandalf left, Black Riders came asking for news of four hobbits riding east. However, Barney stood up to them, and lied when cross-examined. Naturally enough, he is curious, so Frodo allows him to explain later on how he did meet them, supposing that the Riders have missed him. Later Butterbur says that he knows of Bilbo, and remembers the story of his vanishing (p. 346).
In this version, the riders ask for news of four hobbits. But how would they know there were four? In note 7, Christopher relates that later his father was probably aware of this difficulty, and emended it to 'three or more'; but this raises a question regarding a previous chapter of our book:
How did Tom Bombadil know there will be four hobbits coming his way? Gildor only knew of three – but there were four mattresses and pairs of slippers waiting for the hobbits! (as noted by Darkstone, in his reply to question H)
In this draft, Butterbur is said to have managed to stand up to the Riders, and lie to them without being detected. Could this episode be carried on to the book, or is it too fantastic? Maggot did say he will lie to the Riders if they come again, but would he be able to? Could anyone resist a cross-examination? According to the later description in The Hunt for the Ring (UT), either the southerner or Wormtongue couldn't, but Saruman could.
In this draft, Butterbur knows Bilbo – and in the book, he seems to at have know of his disappearance. But this implies that Bilbo hadn't passed through Bree on his way East after leaving Hobbiton. Why?

In The Treason of Isengard, p. 10, Tolkien is described as deciding against the name Barnabas, and against his acquaintance with Tom Bombadil. The acquaintance was indeed omitted from the draft of the fourth phase, but the name persisted until being finally corrected to Barliman on the final typescript (HoME vol. IX, Sauron Defeated, p. 78). It appears that this was not the only time in which Tolkien felt a name was wrong, but vacillated, and changed it only after a long agonizing (as in the Bingo -> Frodo change related above). But going through a final typescript and changing a name is a radical change indeed (especially in the old days, before digitized typesetting made things easier)!
Why did Tolkien feel this change with such an urgency? Mere pedantry? Was it in order to add the joke of having the patrons call him 'Barley' rather than 'Barney'? Or did he feel a name with a Biblical connotation was out of place in The Lord of the Rings?


(This post was edited by sador on Feb 8 2015, 1:13pm)


sador
Half-elven


Feb 8 2015, 1:09pm

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The essentials of story of the hobbits' adventure in the Common Room were not changed much with the successive re-writings (except for the character of Trotter).
Already in the first draft, Merry decides not to join the company, and even advises asks them to mind ther Ps and Qs (do you know that saying? what does it mean?); but they all respond by telling him to mind together (not just Pippin, as in the book).
Bingo gives out that he wants to write a book, and is interested in history and geography – and the company's reaction is quite the same; soon Bingo finds himself the cause of only peripherial interest, and joins Trotter in a corner.
Odo recounts the Farewell Party – which was much worse than in our book, since in the first draft's timeline, and it was Bingo himself who disappeared – only recently. Truly an ass! This is comparable to Pippin's telling who Frodo was in Jackson's film (a bit of stupidity I always cringe at), but at least Pippin was never explicitly told that it is a secret, while Odo is supposed to know that Bingo gave false names for them.
Bingo begins with a speech, and then he feels the chain and Ring in his pocket, and jingles it against a few copper coins; but this doesn't help him, and after a few suitable words he stops and coughs; and then the company ask him for a song.
First Odo tells the scandalous news, and then Bingo starts playing with the Ring – a bit of stupidity I would think beyond any author, save Beard and Kenny (of Bored of the Rings fame)! What's going on with the hobbits – or more precisely, with Tolkien?

At first, Tolkien planned the song to be The Root of the Boot – the original version of Sam's old troll song, which I hope we will discuss in Flight to the Ford; instead of jumping in the air like the cow, Bingo was supposed to mimic Tom's kicking the troll, and the turn upside down. But already in the first draft he changed it to The Cat and the Fiddle.
What do you thing prompted this change? The setting at an inn? Or was this changed because the readers (or the audience) might think of Tom Bombadil, with his great boots?
Isn't the original description a bit more likely than Frodo's jumping up in the air, as in the book?
Both The Root of the Boot and The Cat and the Fiddle are very early Tolkinean compositions; Cat was published in 1923 in Yorkshire Poetry with the subtitle A Nursery Rhyme Undone and its Scandalous Secret Unlocked. In this draft, it is said to be a favourite of Bilbo's who probably wrote it.
Already in the first draft, "There was one swarthy-faced fellow who stood looking at them with a knowing sort of look that made him feel uncomfortable. Very soon he slipped out of the door followed by one of his friends: not a well-favoured pair" (p. 139). Of course, these are the originals of Bill Ferny and the southerner; but as this is a town of hobbits, it is 'the company' who leaves with a huff, with no distinction made between the different races.
Might this have been a reason to change the residents of Bree from hobbits to men? Could Tolkien have felt that no ordinary hobbit would sell another for money, or mischief?
Based on The Scouring of the Shire, do you think this feeling still likely? Compare this to Frodo's assertion that no hobbit had ever killed another on purpose in the Shire.

In the third stage the song is exactly in the present form, but it has Ferny and Harry slipping out the door with one of the southerners. But an ominous suggestion appears:



Quote



For a moment he (Frodo) wondered if the Ring itself had not played him a
trick – or perhaps obeyed orders other than his own. He did not like the looks
of the three men that had gone out, especially not the squint-eyed southerner


(p. 316).
This seems to imply that perhaps the southerner had commanded the Ring. Is this feasible? Would the Ring be commanded, or try to reveal itself, to any of the Enemy's servants? Or is this just a slip, which was corrected in the later texts?
At this point, there is no indication who the southerner is – Saruman has not yet been thought of. But does the "squint-eyed" hint at his being a goblin-man? Or is this just a case of latent racism in Tolkien? I note that as early as the first draft, Ferney (a hobbit!) is described as "swarthy".

In the fourth phase, the story is pretty much as at present; however, there is one important detail: Trotter refers to the song as a proof of Frodo being the real Frodo, since the song was made by Bilbo (this time, this is asserted as a fact) and there is no way the Enemy would have known it (The Treason of Isengard, p. 64).
Why do you think Tolkien might have omitted this? Once the story of the letter Gandalf left with Trotter was dropped, this whole part of the conversation went with it – but shouldn't this detail have been retained?


(This post was edited by sador on Feb 8 2015, 1:14pm)


sador
Half-elven


Feb 8 2015, 1:10pm

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When working on the first draft in 1938, Tolkien got stuck once Bingo met Marmaduke, and for six months he stalled before resuming writing. Then he decided on the detour in the Old Forest, and to place in (or near) it Tom Bombadil, the willow-man and the barrow-wight from a previously published poem of his (a re-worked version of which is the first poem in The Adventures of Tom Bombadil) – and that gave him a few further adventures. But what then? If anything, this meant that Bingo had taken a short cut and avoided the road for much of the "wide respectable country… inhabited by decent respectable folk" – but there was still a long way to Rivendell ahead, with Black Riders in pursuit and no guide!
In the sketch on The Return of the Shadow, page 126, which Christopher Tolkien surmises was composed while his father was working on the very first draft of the Barrow-wight chapter, the further is suggested:

Quote
Pass rapidly over rest of journey to Rivendell. Any riders on the Road? Make
them foolishly turn aside to visit the Troll Stones. This delays
them…




Presumably because of this delay, the Riders catch them by the Ford. But this surely doesn't work! How would the Riders dawdle behind them for so long? So the inevitable conclusion was that Bingo and his friends do need some kind of guide.



Quote

Suddenly Bingo noticed a queer-looking, brown-faced hobbit… He was dressed in
dark rough brown cloth, and had a hood on, in spite of the warmth, - and he had
wooden shoes!


(The Return of the Shadow, p. 137)

Not only Trotter is a hobbit, but all of the Rangers are. I suspect this was the reason for changing the Bree-folk into hobbits – Tolkien wanted a hobbit guide (being overly enamoured of the hobbits fatuous prattle, as he ruefully admitted in Letters no. 31); so he had to come up with a hobbit-Ranger, which only made sense if Bree was still in hobbit-land.
Comments regarding this suggestion? Or am I being too speculative, with too little to go upon?

Barnabas doesn't know why Trotter wears the wooden shoes, but says he can be heard by their clittering when he walks on a path, which isn't often.
This is a nice way of keeping hobbit stealth (at least, if Bingo and his friends will manage to keep their traps shut – which in this draft seems unlikely), but hard roads can't always be avoided. What kind of guide will Trotter make? And won't wooden shoes make some noise even out of the road? And be very noticeable in general?
In short – this seems to be a nice way to build up the mystery surrounding Trotter, and perhaps build up sympathy towards him; but shouldn't it be categorized as one of Tolkien's less successful ideas?

As early as the first draft, Trotter shows the sly humour of "there are queer folk about – though I say it as shouldn't".
Which works well in context. Does it work as well in the book, when said by Aragorn?
In The Return of the Shadow, page 160, Christopher brings another draft, in which Trotter tells a tale of being accosted by Black Riders, as an alternative to their calling at the inn. He defies them, but is alarmed. This first phase ends without the mystery of Trotter being explained, but after reaching Rivendell, JRRT wrote a note to himself asking who is Trotter (p. 210)? This was followed up in Queries and Alternations:



Quote

6. Rangers are best not as hobbits, perhaps. But either Trotter must be not a
hobbit, or someone very well known, e.g. Bilbo... Fosco Took?


(p. 223)

But the question was left hanging. And using Bilbo would contradict the optimistic end of The Hobbit, which Tolkien probably considered a binding constraint (Humphrey Carpenter, Biography p. 185; on which Christopher comments: "This explanation is plausible" in The Return of the Shadow, page 28).

In the third phase, both Bree-landers and Rangers are Men – but Trotter, while still a hobbit is reckoned a ranger. He recalls eavesdropping on Gandalf and Odo (who in this version accompanied him), overhearing their worry about Frodo and wanting to warn him. After that, he reveals himself and takes Gandalf's letter.
He also points out that despite giving the name of Mr. Hill, the other hobbits call him 'Frodo', a name which should also be left behind (ps. 337-8); later Tolkien expunged this detail, although Jackson had something similar in his film.
Sometimes I get the impression that Jackson and his crew of scriptwriters did research HoME quite thoroughly; as a source it was naturally off-limits, but a suspicious amount of the minor changes they made to the story have a precedent in Tolkien's own writings.
What do you think? Did any member of the team ever comment about using HoME? Or was this just intuition – one that comes from familiarity with the book? Or perhaps on the contrary, they were stumbling into pitfalls which JRRT had fell into before them, but learned to avoid?

In this version, Trotter also recalls an encounter with a Black Rider, and describes Bill Ferney (that was the spelling of his name at the time) pretty much as Aragorn does in Strider, mentioning his connection with the southerner and being a chum of Harry Goatleaf; he also reates overhearing Ferney speaking softly with someone who was hissing. He also brags, as Strider does when offering his reward – but "his speech had changed as he talked, from to unfamiliar tones of the Outsider to something more familiar, something that seemed to remind Frodo of somebody".
This is rather more powerful than Frodo's telling Strider "You began to talk to me like the Bree-folk, but now your voice has changed" (in the next chapter), isn’t it? If so, should Tolkien have omitted this sentence altogether? By the change in phrasing, it appears that he kept in on purpose; what is its new effect?
Well, perhaps that's a question for the next chapter; and I shouldn't be stepping on Arithmancer's toes.

In New uncertainties and new projections (written in August 1939, p. 371), Tolkien finally sketched Trotter's story. According to this storyline, Bilbo had two favourite nephews: the elder was Peregrin Boffin, a grandson of Donnamira Took and Frodo (or Folco) Baggins; Peregrin has disappeared sometime ago – another of the "so many quite lads and lasses going off into the Blue for mad adventures" (as Bilbo put it in An Unexpected Party). Another suggested storyline was that he left quietly with Bilbo, and that the Farewell Party was thrown by Frodo, without Gandalf's presence.
The last storyline was rejected, but it seems that Tolkien had accepted the general identity of Trotter; in the chapter At Rivendell (p. 393), Bilbo calls Trotter "Perry".
Once Trotter was discarded and Aragorn introduced, the whole story was dropped, of course. But wouldn't you have loved to read a story by story about one of those lads, or lasses?

At the outset of the fourth stage (The Treason of Isengard, p.6), Trotter was finally supposed to be a Man, whose true name was Aragorn – or else Peregrin Boffin. It appears that Tolkien vacillated between the two options for some time.
Even after 'Trotter' became a man, Tolkien loved the name and didn't want to discard it (isn't this typical of him?). At one point he suggested that Peregrin Boffin was one of Frodo's two boon companions (with Meriadoc Brandybuck), and that they were known as Merry and Perry. But that would leave the story without any prominent member of the Took family!
So at last Peregrin Took emerged (but was nicked 'Pippin' – possibly to avoid slips when reworking the old drafts), with the only Boffin among Frodo's friends became the unremarkable Folco (a name which was given to two other characters before). However, the Boffins as a family had become important, and remained so – Folco is still a great-grandson of Donnamira Took, and the family are named second to the Bagginses in Bilbo's farewell speech.
So, after a long struggle, Tolkien has finally given up on a fascinating character, in which he invested much thought and writing (there was also Odo - Ham Bolger, but his character was only reduced to Fatty's, and most of its original dialogue was retained). What does this say of him as a writer?

Trotter remained a Man, and became a descendant of Elendil, a member of Elrond's household, and a friend of both Gandalf and Bilbo. At some point Gandalf's letter at Bree included a recommendation to meet Trotter, and Trotter himself was to show a letter of introduction by Gandalf. As a matter of fact, Frodo's not asking for it was the reason for Aragorn's wariness of the hobbits, which he refers to in the next chapter (The Treason of Isengard, ps. 77-78).
Would you prefer that this detail was retained? Or does the story work better without it?

But one last point – which again shows Tolkien love of his names, even those he realized were unsuccessful ones. While 'Trotter' was eminently appropriate for a Ranger-hobbit, it seems quite underwhelming for a heir of Elendil. But it was kept – at least until the first version of the unpublished Epilogue (Sauron Defeated, p. 121). I'm not sure when the nickname was finally changed to 'Strider' (before the second typescript, at the latest) – but it was 'Strider' by the time Tolkien wrote his second version of the Epilogue (p. 129; see note 14 in The War of the Ring p. 395).
So 'Trotter' was finally laid to rest. But it seems at least two 'fossils' (as noWizardme called them) of it survive, in which Aragorn admits that his nickname is inappropriate; and I think 'Strider' would be less offensive.
Final riddle: which are those 'fossils'? And do you agree with my feeling, that 'Strider' would cause no need for consternation?


(This post was edited by sador on Feb 8 2015, 1:16pm)


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Feb 8 2015, 3:32pm

Post #6 of 54 (4126 views)
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Names [In reply to] Can't Post

My own opinion on your final question comes from my personal experience of planning to write (and not finishing Wink ) a fantasy novel of my own, back in my college and grad school days. it involved a sizable cast of characters to name, and names matter. I would have been so bogged down getting them right, I doubt I should have gotten as far as I did, had I worried about it too much. So I picked names I could live with while writing them for the more important ones, and any random names that occurred to me for less important ones (at one point resorting to Lord X for one, as nothing I could live with came to mind). I also experienced name changes as the characters developed and I realized a name I may have felt was OK when the character first appeared, was not so good once that character had displayed to me a side to me I had not anticipated.

I imagine this could have been even more difficult for Tolkien, because unlike him, I don't have any particular knowledge of the etymology of names in various languages. This meant I only needed to worry about how they sounded to me, whereas for him they would be freighted with all this additional meaning, both linguistically, and from his knowledge of historc or mythic characters sharing a name.

For Frodo in particular, the name means "wise" according to the link you provided. It seems reasonable to me that as the story progressed, it seemed more and more appropriate to Tolkien to name this character so, but he resisted such a strongly "speaking" name (if only to one who knows Norse names...) until it was entirely apparent the name fit.



noWizardme
Half-elven


Feb 8 2015, 4:08pm

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P's and Q's [In reply to] Can't Post

"Mind your P's and Q's" is an expression meaning "be on your best behaviour".
The origin is not clear:
http://en.wikipedia.org/.../Mind_your_Ps_and_Qs

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


noWizardme
Half-elven


Feb 8 2015, 5:27pm

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Butterbur - one of Tolkien's "not obviously wise" characters [In reply to] Can't Post

The impression Butterbur gives is of a superficial person - chattering away, much of the time in a string of platitudes, whilst always trying to do too much at once. It takes a while to realise that (as you say) he is intelligent.

Farmer Maggot is like that too, and Ioreth, who we encounter later. Saruman would no doubt despise them as fools, and thereby miss a trick. (He makes a similar mistake with Treebeard, of course.) They are not at all like the very overtly (even aggressively) intelligent people Tolkien must have seen a lot of at the University. It's nice that he can do more types of person than that.

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Feb 8 2015, 7:44pm

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Barliman Butterbur [In reply to] Can't Post

More on the Rangers later; but regarding Butterbur – does he retain any hobbit-like traits in our book?

He's still round, and a homebody suspicious of outsiders. So yes, I think he retains hobbitlike traits (though, as hobbits are not so different from us Big People in many ways, this does not strike me as unusual).

Is Butterbur an endearing person? Or just a comical one?

Both, to me!

Does the (man) Butterbur in the book project this image? Or was the character changed? If so, how?

I think he does, yes. But while he is harried, etc. I would not not describe him as a hapless victim of the bullying of his guests. To me his interactions with the locals seemed mutually friendly - I imagine if some warlike outsider really did try to take advantage of his inability to defend himself he would have to deal with some angry Breelanders...

Also, Butterbur seems to manage to get his way - for example, the Hobbits DO go to the Common Room to socialize with the regulars and other guests. I don't think his size (Hobbit vs. Man) matters all that much in the end, in the way Bree is portrayed. It is a community of Men and Hobbits, where they seem to get along well enough and would support one another against Outsiders.

In summary, just as he is not as stupid as he might initially appear, I think he has more backbone than first impressions might suggest.

How did Tom Bombadil know there will be four hobbits coming his way?

I never considered this - but I took it as implied that some Bucklanders, including specifically Farmer Maggot, venture into the Old Forest and may know Tom. So I think he might know the news of the area.

In this draft, Butterbur is said to have managed to stand up to the Riders, and lie to them without being detected. Could this episode be carried on to the book, or is it too fantastic?

I think it is all in the execution. *Some* episode of Butterbur lying to the Black Riders would certainly be credible to me. The very idea that no fat, chatty innkeeper would dare, in my opinion increases the likelihood of his success. He just has to look (and I don't think this would require great acting prowess!) scared out of his wits. A lengthy scene in which it is implied a Nazgul uses dark sorcery and Butterbur still resists him, yeah, that would be harder to swallow!


In this draft, Butterbur knows Bilbo – and in the book, he seems to at have know of his disappearance. But this implies that Bilbo hadn't passed through Bree on his way East after leaving Hobbiton. Why?

I do not follow your reasoning. Or else, your explanation of the history of this story - how many years, in the draft you reference here, pass between Bilbo's disappearance and Frodo's (or Bingo's) arrival at the Inn?

Why did Tolkien feel this change with such an urgency?

Personally, I think it could have been because the name "Barliman Butterbur" approaches perfection. It has the (apparently) desired alliteration. It references barley, of which beer and ale are brewed. It is a plant name (like Butterbur, and many of the Breelanders' names). But I think also that Barnabas might have been a name Tolkien had kept all this time not our of great fondness for it, but because he had not come up with a better alternative.

I do agree it does not suit the world all that well, being as you say a Biblical name.



(This post was edited by arithmancer on Feb 8 2015, 7:46pm)


sador
Half-elven


Feb 9 2015, 12:40pm

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And Sam, of course. [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien makes a point that his name is not Samuel, but Samwise, with an etymology of sam-wis, which means roughly "has some wisdon", i.e. not quite wise.


sador
Half-elven


Feb 9 2015, 1:08pm

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How late is too late? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Also, Butterbur seems to manage to get his way - for example, the Hobbits DO go to the Common Room to socialize with the regulars and other guests.

That's a good point. I hope to discuss Butterbur more fully in a later thread, and will take note of your observation. Thank you!



In Reply To

I do not follow your reasoning. Or else, your explanation of the history of this story - how many years, in the draft you reference here, pass between Bilbo's disappearance and Frodo's (or Bingo's) arrival at the Inn?

That's wasn't what I've meant. Butterbur says that the rumour of Bilbo's disappearance reached Bree, which I took to mean that Bilbo did not pass through Bree in person.

But now when I think of it, Bilbo might have passed through Bree discreetly (and Gandalf too), long before any scandalous news began making the rounds. So perhaps I jumped too fast to a conclusion.



In Reply To
Personally, I think it could have been because the name "Barliman Butterbur" approaches perfection...


I agree with all the reasons you've given. But still, Tolkien thought the name 'Barnabas' was unsuitable pretty early, but retained it until the third typescript... pretty much like 'Trotter', as I've posted below.
It's possible he didn't come up with the simple, and brilliant, solution of 'Barliman' until the very last moment.
But one has to admire Tolkien's insistence on changing a frequently-occuring name in the very last stage - after the last typescript! After that, he would only have the galley proofs to check. Today's writers would be horrified at such an undertaking - and they do have the benefit of an electronic search.


(This post was edited by sador on Feb 9 2015, 1:09pm)


sador
Half-elven


Feb 9 2015, 1:18pm

Post #12 of 54 (4087 views)
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I've seen that article [In reply to] Can't Post

But is this phrase still used?


sador
Half-elven


Feb 9 2015, 1:46pm

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The rub is [In reply to] Can't Post

That 'Frodo' was at first the name of one of Bingo's companions.
It would seem that at first, Tolkien did not put too much thought into the nomeclature, until the story (and the character of Frodo) 'grew on' him.
As Tom Shippry points out, the connection with Frothi, or Froda, is not immediately clear. It's only when you take into account the hint in appendix F, that many hobbit-names had no special meaning, and actually ended with an 'a' (i.e. Bilba, Oda, Folca), that you make the connection. Especially when one notices that Frodo's name, which does fit in the pattern, is not mentioned there.
Only when HoME vol. XII, The Peoples of Middle-earth, was published, we learn that in the drafts to appendix F, JRRT actually intended to make the connection explicit - stating that Frodo's real name was 'Maura', which had a similar meaning as 'Froda' in Norse languages. I personally think he did well to leave this out, and not confuse readers even beyond what appendix F does.

But I still can't understand the name 'Hamilcar Bolger'.



noWizardme
Half-elven


Feb 9 2015, 3:46pm

Post #14 of 54 (4086 views)
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Finding names for your work of fiction -a time-honoured problem [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
"All novelists have had occasion at some time or other to wish with Falstaff, that they knew where a commodity of good names was to be had."

Sir Walter Scott, Introduction to Ivanhoe


~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


Darkstone
Immortal


Feb 9 2015, 5:12pm

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The Return of the Talking Purse [In reply to] Can't Post

If you here require a practical rule of me, I will present you with this: ‘Whenever you feel an impulse to perpetrate a piece of exceptionally fine writing, obey it—whole-heartedly—and delete it before sending your manuscript to press. Murder your darlings.’
- Arthur Quiller-Couch, On the Art of Writing, “On Style” (1914)


To those unfamiliar with HoME – was this easy to understand?

Sure.


To those who do know the book – which mistakes did I make? There sure were some.

Let’s leave any nits to the Tolkien scholars.


However, one thing strikes me about this whole play with the hobbits' names: the haphazard way they were arrived at. I mean, 'Frodo' is a name with special meaning, recalling Fróði of Norse legend (see here, and the discussion by Tom Shippey, The Road to Middle-eath pps. 204-209 or Author of the Century pps. 182-187) – but Tolkien seems to have resisted the notion of calling his hero by that name, preferring the ridiculous 'Bingo';

Sometimes writers get invested in a name, phrase, passage, etc. and they just can’t let go despite all the little nigglings in the back of their minds that say “This just don’t fit”.


…and while I realize the whole landscape described in appendix F, Of Translation, was a late development – Tolkien surely realized, that while 'Fredegar' is a Germanic name, and 'Odo' can also be a short version of a similar one – 'Hamilcar' is Phoenician!

Note a couple of modern forms of the name “Hamilcar” are “Amilcar” and “Amilcare”.

Interestingly, Amilcar Hasenfratz was the nom de peinture of famed sculptor Frédéric Auguste Bartholdi. Bartholdi was the sculptor of various colassi like the United States’ Statue of Liberty and France’s Lion of Belfort but not the Argonath. The Statue of Liberty had its origins as a proposed lighthouse to the entrance of the Suez Canal. While in Egypt Bartholdi did some paintings on Egyptian subjects (mainly women) for which he used the pseudonym “Amilcar Hasenfratz” in order to avoid confusing people with his work as a sculptor and vice versa.

Of course “Frederick” (peace-rule) isn’t quite the same as “Fredegar” (peace-spear), but “Hasenfratz” means “fretful rabbit”, a nice enough description of Fredegar's personality. And Bartholdi means “bright-ruler” which takes us to Argonath (ruler stones) and then right back to Frederick.

BTW, “Amilcare” was one of Mussolini’s middle names, which meant “brother of the city ruler” which he wasn't but which Fredegar was, at least after his brother-in-law Merry became Master of Buckland.

As for “Bolger”, it seems to come from the French "boulge", meaning a leather bag or wallet, in which case Fredegar is a talking purse which takes us back to the Trollshaws in The Hobbit.


So the question arises:
Why was Tolkien so careless with the nomenclature of The Lord of the Rings at this stage?



Probably having too much fun.

******************************************
I met a Balrog on the stair,
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today,
I wish he would just fly away.


Darkstone
Immortal


Feb 9 2015, 7:08pm

Post #16 of 54 (4105 views)
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Do Balrogs have vocal chords? [In reply to] Can't Post

What do you think of this wonderfully careless version of Gandalf?

Very curious, especially considering this passage from The Hobbit:

The elves had brought bright lanterns to the shore, and they sang a merry song as the party went across.
“Don’t dip your beard in the foam, father!” they cried to Thorin, who was bent almost on to his hands and knees. “It is long enough without watering it.”
“Mind Bilbo doesn’t eat all the cakes!” they called. “He is too fat to get through key-holes yet!”
“Hush, hush! Good People! and good night!” said Gandalf, who came last.
“Valleys have ears, and some elves have over merry tongues. Good night!”

-A Short Rest

Then again Gandalf is pretty good at knowing who’s doing any dropping of eaves in the area so maybe he intended Trotter to overhear. Often people take as gospel things they overhear that they’d doubt if told directly.


And of his opinion of Bingo?

Again, curious in consideration of this description from Fog on the Barrow-Downs:

There is a seed of courage hidden (often deeply, it is true) in the heart of the fattest and most timid hobbit, wailing for some final and desperate danger to make it grow. Frodo was neither very fat nor very timid; indeed, though he did not know it, Bilbo (and Gandalf) had thought him the best hobbit in the Shire.

Of course what Gandalf says to Marmaduke may not be what he really thinks. Wizards are worse than Elves. They not only say both yes and no, but often the total opposite.


Does it fit with the Gandalf we know from The Hobbit?

Sure, with the whole “To think that I should have lived to be good-morninged by Belladonna Took’s son, as if I was selling buttons at the door!” and ’… I will go so far as to send you on this adventure. Very amusing for me, very good for you and profitable too, very likely, if you ever get over it.” from An Unexpected Party.


If you do not think so, why not?

I’ll also mention FOTR’s ”If you don't let me in, Frodo, I shall blow your door right down your hole and out through the hill,” he said. from A Long Expected Party.


Was Tolkien making the sequel a sillier book than its predecessor?

When you think on it The Hobbit is pretty silly.


Or is the Gandalf of The Hobbit coloured in our perception by the more serious final version of The Lord of the Rings, so that we fail to remember he is described as a much less exalted person?

With the affection built up over many readings we often forget how crusty Gandalf really is, It’s like how people complain that movie-Gandalf shouldn’t be so fearful or doubtful, or how he should be able to easily wipe the floor with Wi-Ki.


But even in this version, the Black Riders were hot in pursuit of Bingo and his friends, and there were Barrow-wights not far from Bree – how could Gandalf remain so blissfully unaware of the danger?

How could Gandalf fall so blissfully into Saruman’s trap?


In the second phase, the story didn't reach Bree; but in third phase, Gandalf encounters the Black Riders at Crickhollow, and then rides to Bree with Odo. He reaches the inn before Frodo, as Frodo took the detour through the Old Forest (which Gandalf knows). Butterbur describes:



________________________________________ Quote ________________________________________

But he winked at me, and didn't answer my questions. 'Hot drinks and warm beds!'
he croaked, and stumbled up the stairs.
________________________________________

Gandalf croaking?!? Why? did he catch a cold, or something?


Gandalf, please, should not 'splutter'. Though he may seem testy at times, has a sense of humour, and adopts a somewhat avuncular attitude to hobbits, he is a person of high and noble authority, and great dignity.
-Letter #210

Of course in the same letter Tolkien also says The Balrog never speaks or makes any vocal sound at all.

But:

With a terrible cry the Balrog fell forward…
-The Bridge of Khazad-dûm

Oops…


In another version written at the same stage, Gandalf's meeting with Harry at the gate is described, during which Harry tells him of the Black Riders passing through Bree (p. 344-345). This naturally makes the conversation with Butterbur is different, but the messages Gandalf leaves are essentially the same. Of course, being perfectly aware that danger is both behind and ahead, he does not propose to wait, but rather uses Odo as a decoy, personifying 'Baggins' and hoping that the Black Riders will follow him rather than Frodo.
Would this have worked?


It did with Fredegar at Crickhollow.

When he reached the nearest house, more than a mile away, he collapsed on the doorstep. 'No, no, no!' he was crying. 'No, not me! I haven't got it!'
-A Knife in the Dark


I mean, the Riders can sense the Ring, can't they?

Yes, no, maybe, lolwut? Depends on the Tolkien scholar.


Won't they realize they've got the wrong hobbit?

They don’t tend to realize much at all during daylight hours. And why did they split up between the Shire and Bree?


And anyway, after their encounters with the hobbits in the Shire, wouldn't they expect a larger party?

Unexpected or long expected?

In any case, even a group of fore-warned hobbit guards seem merely a speed-bump to them:

They rode down the guards at the gate and vanished from the Shire.
-ibid


This is the first time Tolkien uses the idea of a decoy. This was of course changed, but this idea was used again with Pippin and Merry (unintentionally), and then the whole western theatre of the War seems to be one large diversion.

The birth of Captain Obvious.


Any other cases?

M&P used the ruse on Grishnákh at Fangorn, Tolkien used the ruse on the reader with Sam at theTower of Cirith Ungol, and MOS used the ruse on the Captains at the Morannon though he didn’t exactly realize it.


Is the story improved by this change?

Certainly, though I suspect we’d think the opposite if the change had been reversed.

******************************************
I met a Balrog on the stair,
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today,
I wish he would just fly away.


Darkstone
Immortal


Feb 9 2015, 8:12pm

Post #17 of 54 (4100 views)
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He knows where you sleep at night... [In reply to] Can't Post

More on the Rangers later; but regarding Butterbur – does he retain any hobbit-like traits in our book?

Very provincial.


A riddle: what was this description of Butterbur transformed to?

Pippin roused a good deal of laughter with an account of the collapse of the roof of the Town Hole in Michel Delving: Will Whitfoot, the Mayor, and the fattest hobbit in the Westfarthing, had been buried in chalk, and came out like a floured dumpling.
-At the Sign of The Prancing Pony


Butterbur is clearly a "jolly landlord". He describes Tom Bombadil as "Mad and merry, but merrier than mad"; and abuses Nob as "wooly-footed slow-coach". He suspects the cover names Bingo invents (Hill, Rivers, Green and Brown) – which shows him to be quite intelligent.

Or he’s just a very experienced innkeeper used to people trying to sneak names by him like “John Doe”, “Mr. and Mrs. Smith”, “G. U. Stink”, and “Prince Ar-Pharazôn-In-A-Can”.


Is Butterbur an endearing person?

I’m sure his dog likes him.


Or just a comical one?

Hobbits at least have hobbityness to leaven their comedy.


I suppose many of the callers at an inn along the road would be considerably larger than the landlord, and consequently will resort to often bullying him. I would suppose Tolkien had an internal image of an overburdened, harried, ever-apologetic landlord.

The customer is always right, especially if you want their return business. Unfortunately most people, businesses, and politicians never learn that a simple “I’m sorry” covers most sins.


Does the (man) Butterbur in the book project this image? Or was the character changed? If so, how?]

Man or hobbit? Does it really make much difference in Bree?

(Though I reserve my conspiracy theory that hobbits are the slave underclass in Bree and The Prancing Pony cellars hold many a waylaid travelling Elf and Dwarf being held for ransom from their families.)


Or is this simply reflective of the regular way patrons abused (or still do?) the owners of inns and taverns in Tolkien's time?

Caution: They know where you sleep at night.

There’s Lavinia Fisher and the Bloody Benders in America, and check out James Moore’s Murder at the Inn: A Criminal History of Britain's Pubs and Hotels.


In which case – how does this reflect in the changing of Butterbur, from man to hobbit and back?

Kinda like how innkeeper Norman Bates switched between two very different identities?


How did Tom Bombadil know there will be four hobbits coming his way?

Goldberry regularly goes to the tops of hills and stares intently.


Gildor only knew of three – but there were four mattresses and pairs of slippers waiting for the hobbits!

Maybe they were still there from Gildor and his companions?

Or maybe he expected five hobbits, including a married couple he knew would share one mattress, and two peg-legged hobbits who could split one pair of slippers between them?


(as noted by Darkstone, in his reply to question H)

If Darkstone’s so smart then why ain’t he rich?


In this draft, Butterbur is said to have managed to stand up to the Riders, and lie to them without being detected. Could this episode be carried on to the book, or is it too fantastic?

The Gaffer did.


Maggot did say he will lie to the Riders if they come again, but would he be able to?

The Gaffer did.


Could anyone resist a cross-examination?

In the comfy chair with a side table of fried mushrooms? Probably not.


According to the later description in The Hunt for the Ring (UT), either the southerner or Wormtongue couldn't, but Saruman could.

No one would believe Saurman anyway, so why ask him?


In this draft, Butterbur knows Bilbo – and in the book, he seems to at have know of his disappearance. But this implies that Bilbo hadn't passed through Bree on his way East after leaving Hobbiton. Why?

Probably wearing one of those all-concealing cloaks of the Black Riders. Little wonder they couldn’t find the Ring: No peripheral vision.


Why did Tolkien feel this change with such an urgency?

The etymology of “Barnabas” is contradictory to say the least.


Mere pedantry?

I’m thinking mere philology, but Tolkien wouldn’t think so. At least not with the word “mere”.


Was it in order to add the joke of having the patrons call him 'Barley' rather than 'Barney'?

The sixth Istari: “Barney the Purple”.


Or did he feel a name with a Biblical connotation was out of place in The Lord of the Rings?

Having someone named “'the son of the prophet, consolation, and/or encouragement” would probably have been too much a philological enigma even for Tolkien.

******************************************
I met a Balrog on the stair,
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today,
I wish he would just fly away.


Riven Delve
Tol Eressea


Feb 9 2015, 8:36pm

Post #18 of 54 (4082 views)
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It think it's clear... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Of course in the same letter Tolkien also says The Balrog never speaks or makes any vocal sound at all.

But:

With a terrible cry the Balrog fell forward…
-The Bridge of Khazad-dûm

Oops…



The terrible cry is metaphorical. Like the wings. Evil Wink




“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”



(This post was edited by Riven Delve on Feb 9 2015, 8:48pm)


Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Feb 9 2015, 8:40pm

Post #19 of 54 (4082 views)
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I have always loved [In reply to] Can't Post

how Aragorn is a completely different character from Trotter, and yet some of the original dialog still works. And maybe that makes Aragorn more appealing than he might otherwise be, as a practically perfect hero in every respect. That charmingly self-deprecating sense of humor comes from what was once a hobbit (and possibly Bilbo himself). If he had been a human hero from the beginning, he might have been more insufferable like Boromir.

I never thought about it before, but I agree that "Strider" doesn't sound particularly insulting. The first time I read the book, it had the unfortunate connection in my mind with the word "spider", just because they sound so similar, but I don't think that was intended. The "Longshanks" that Ferny calls him sounds more insulting.

I'm not sure what fossils you are referring to, but as I mentioned in that other thread, the wooden shoes are tied to Aragorn's reluctance to enter Moria later on.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Feb 9 2015, 8:45pm

Post #20 of 54 (4055 views)
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I don't know about used, but it's certainly understood. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Darkstone
Immortal


Feb 9 2015, 9:14pm

Post #21 of 54 (4086 views)
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Mrs. MacFadden, I love you! [In reply to] Can't Post

Already in the first draft, Merry decides not to join the company, and even advises asks them to mind ther Ps and Qs (do you know that saying?

Yep.


what does it mean?);

In a pub context it could mean “pints” and “quarts”. That is, a warning against drinking too much.

But in second grade Mrs. MacFadden said it meant for us to mind the difference between lower-case p and q and she was a saint who never lied to us even when she did.


First Odo tells the scandalous news, and then Bingo starts playing with the Ring – a bit of stupidity I would think beyond any author, save Beard and Kenny (of Bored of the Rings fame)! What's going on with the hobbits – or more precisely, with Tolkien?

I’m thinking the Aldwych farces, which played on the London stage in the 1920s, and on British film in the 1930s. Low comedy combined with clever word-play. How could young Tolkien resist?


What do you thing prompted this change? The setting at an inn? Or was this changed because the readers (or the audience) might think of Tom Bombadil, with his great boots?

I think in the end he couldn’t resist going all philological with an asterisk poem.


Isn't the original description a bit more likely than Frodo's jumping up in the air, as in the book?

But Frodo will later take a metaphorical jump, a leap of faith, with Strider.


Might this have been a reason to change the residents of Bree from hobbits to men?

Probably.


Could Tolkien have felt that no ordinary hobbit would sell another for money, or mischief?

At least not until the rule of Sharkey.


Based on The Scouring of the Shire, do you think this feeling still likely?

Nope. That’s the entire point of the chapter.


Compare this to Frodo's assertion that no hobbit had ever killed another on purpose in the Shire.

Up to then.


This seems to imply that perhaps the southerner had commanded the Ring.

Or vice-versa.


Is this feasible?

The ring answers to Sauron alone. Also when he’s in groups.


Would the Ring be commanded….

That’s exactly what it wants you to think.


…or try to reveal itself, to any of the Enemy's servants?

Like, say convince someone to put it on in the near presence of a Nazgul, or slip on a finger when everyone’s looking?

Nah!


Or is this just a slip, which was corrected in the later texts?

I’m thinking “flattening” myself.


At this point, there is no indication who the southerner is – Saruman has not yet been thought of. But does the "squint-eyed" hint at his being a goblin-man?

Goblin-Man: He’s faster than a speeding express train and able to leap over large hobbit holes in a single bound!


Or is this just a case of latent racism in Tolkien?

For the vision of the menace from the East was always more racial rather than national. It derived not from concern with any one country or people in particular, but from a vague and ominous sense of the vast, faceless, nameless yellow horde: the rising tide, indeed, of color.
The Yellow Peril was naturally the stuff of fantasy and cheap thrills, a fit subject for pulp literature, comics, B-movies, and sensational journalism.

-John W. Dower, War Without Mercy: Race & Power in the Pacific War

(That oughta get some blood boiling.)


Why do you think Tolkien might have omitted this?

Establishing Trotter/Strider’s bonafides was more essential.


Once the story of the letter Gandalf left with Trotter was dropped, this whole part of the conversation went with it – but shouldn't this detail have been retained?

And portray Isildur’s Heir as someone unable to judge character?

No.

******************************************
I met a Balrog on the stair,
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today,
I wish he would just fly away.


Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea

Feb 10 2015, 1:29am

Post #22 of 54 (4071 views)
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This is one of my favorite chaptors [In reply to] Can't Post

And it gets better with age. It is almost as if the Hobbits have landed straight into my local. Of course, this is a very idealizied version of a local. Nowadays, the Prancing Pony would probably have been taking over by a pub-chain. And the landlord would certainly not invite everyone to chat with new arrivals in the way they do here! Possibly because newcomers are not that unusual in any pub. And it wouldn't even be a smoky atmosphere with the ban on smoking in pubs, though possibly in some areas we have moved on. But it is a nice mix of the homely with danger.

Strider. One thing I did notice with reading the previous threads is that Strider is as a complete contrast to Tom Bombadil as can be imagined. Not very jolly, I don't think anyone ever accused Strider of been jolly, quite the opposite, grim but practical to the extreme. He wouldn't be wearing yellow socks either, I suppose.

Another thing I notice is that this Inn is very busy. Nowadays most pubs do have their quiet times. Still, it depends, I wonder what day of the week this was? If it was a Monday or a Tuesday, it was extraodinarily busy!


(This post was edited by Hamfast Gamgee on Feb 10 2015, 1:30am)


sador
Half-elven


Feb 10 2015, 10:06am

Post #23 of 54 (4065 views)
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"Very amusing to me, very good for you" [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, that's the right pitch. The point is, that people have an image of Gandalf built on many readings of The Lord of the Rings - and project it back on The Hobbit.
Even JRRT himself, as you note.


In Reply To
It did with Fredegar at Crickhollow.


Well, the Riders did after raiding the house come to the conclusion that the Ring and its bearer were gone. They didn't hang around Buckland, trying to hunt for Fredegar.



In Reply To

Certainly, though I suspect we’d think the opposite if the change had been reversed.

I'm not sure, but it's likely that quite a few readers would.


And thanks about the explanation regarding the name 'Amilcare' in your other response!





Arannir
Valinor


Feb 10 2015, 10:27am

Post #24 of 54 (4052 views)
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Thanks for doing this. [In reply to] Can't Post

It is wonderful to read and I will try to join in more often.


I paritcularly liked this one about Gandalf. He really seems a bit careless here.

What I like about it all is that it seems pretty chaotic. In the version that got published one sometimes has the feeling that some characters are almost always on top of things, even if for a short period of time they might be late, imprisoned, or whatnot (Gandalf and Aragorn at least).

Sure, Gandalf's path from Crickhollow to Rivendell in the book is also very dangerous and unplanned. But since it is all told in hindsight it doesn't quite have the quirky feeling it has here.

However, the final version simply fits much better into the overall tale and I therefore like that Tolkien came to that version eventually.



"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



sador
Half-elven


Feb 10 2015, 10:29am

Post #25 of 54 (4054 views)
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Old Flourdumpling! [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, that's the right answer.

In Reply To


I reserve my conspiracy theory...


Just keep it until the next thread is posted!

In Reply To


If Darkstone’s so smart then why ain’t he rich?


Because he shares as much as he gathers.
Now had he taken a leaf out of Lotho's book... I guess that would make all of us poorer.


In Reply To
The Gaffer did.


No, the Gaffer didn't lie to the Rider - he told what he thought was the truth.


In Reply To

No one would believe Saurman anyway, so why ask him?

It was a part of the protocol they had to fill.


In Reply To
I’m thinking mere philology, but Tolkien wouldn’t think so. At least not with the word “mere”.


Yeah, he would think it an undercover attempt to legitimise Protestantism, like Lewis did.


In Reply To

The sixth Istari: “Barney the Purple”.

Barney wears brown! Dino is purple.

Having someone named “'the son of the prophet, consolation, and/or encouragement” would probably have been too much a philological enigma even for Tolkien.
Nah.
He would get around it, by inventing a different, non-Biblical etymology, like he did for Samwise.
After all, Sam is modelled on the prodigal son of the estimable 'ol' corpilence', Mr. Tony Weller:

Quote

'I'm a-goin' to leave you, Samivel, my boy, and there's no telling ven I shall see you again. Your mother-in-law may ha' been too much for me, or a thousand things may have happened by the time you next hears any news o' the celebrated Mr. Veller o' the Bell Savage. The family name depends wery much upon you, Samivel, and I hope you'll do wot's right by it. Upon all little pints o' breedin', I know I may trust you as vell as if it was my own self. So I've only this here one little bit of adwice to give you. If ever you gets to up'ards o' fifty, and feels disposed to go a-marryin' anybody--no matter who--jist you shut yourself up in your own room, if you've got one, and pison yourself off hand. Hangin's wulgar, so don't you have nothin' to say to that. Pison yourself, Samivel, my boy, pison yourself, and you'll be glad on it arterwards.' With these affecting words, Mr. Weller looked steadfastly on his son, and turning slowly upon his heel, disappeared from his sight.


- Pickwick Papers, ch. 23.

"You're naught but a ninnyhammer" is shorter, but you see my point.

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