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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Would Kili's Morgul wound have stayed with him as Frodo's did?
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Ruxendil_Thoorg
Tol Eressea


Feb 3 2015, 3:00am

Post #1 of 29 (4716 views)
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Would Kili's Morgul wound have stayed with him as Frodo's did? Can't Post

If Kili had survived the final battle, would his Morgul arrow wound have continued to affect him?

At Weathertop, Frodo was stabbed with a Morgul blade in the shoulder, and the aching stayed with him even after he was supposedly healed, initially by Arwen in the movies using athelas, followed by further treatment under the masterful healing hands of Elrond. The Morgul splinter was successfully removed. After that, Frodo enjoyed a time of peaceful recovery in the beautiful serenity and safe haven of Rivendell. He went on to see his quest to the end. Ultimately, the healing and recovery notwithstanding, the wound affected Frodo so much that in the end he felt there was no choice but to sail West.

In DOS, Kili is pierced by what we are told is a Morgul arrow. Tauriel manages to heal him using athelas, similar to the technique that Arwen used on Frodo. The incantation Tauriel spoke were, in Sindarin, the same words that Arwen, directly translated into Westron, spoke as she treated Frodo. Kili had no follow-up with a healing master like Elrond. There was no recovery period in a secure, peaceful, resort-like facility.

Question: had Kili survived the Battle of the Five Armies, would he have endured a similar, chronic suffering that Frodo experienced, through the rest of his days? Would he have eventually hurt so much that he would wish to end it all (even if he and Tauriel had ended up happily together somehow), assuming he had no way of earning passage to the Undying Lands as Frodo had?

***

He was born of mortal frailty mixed with Elven fallen realm,
Comin’ home to a land he’d never been before.
Arvernian behind him, sailed the seas of Middle-earth,
You might say he didn’t know what lay in store.

When his wife came out to find him she'd been turned into a bird,
Upon her breast there shone a shining star,
So he took her to his bosom, and by morn her form returned,
And he shifted West to find the high Valar.

And in Valinor he went before the high,
In doing so, resigned himself to die.
Take up arms against the Shadow, asked he of the high,
of the Valar high. (Fight, fight the Shadow)
of the Valar high. (Fight, fight the Shadow)

* * *
http://newboards.theonering.net/...forum_view_expanded;


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Feb 3 2015, 3:03am

Post #2 of 29 (4326 views)
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Not in my opinion. [In reply to] Can't Post

It was a different type of weapon. Not a sorcerous dagger of the Witch King, but just a poisoned arrow. I think the latter was within the hypothetical power of an Elf to heal completely.



balbo biggins
Rohan


Feb 3 2015, 3:24am

Post #3 of 29 (4303 views)
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its a got of an odd one [In reply to] Can't Post

in the book world im pretty sure the cursed morgul blades were very rare if not just a one off, so i dont think it makes sense to have a morgul arrow, its a bit fan fictiony, i dont really like it.

but like any wound im sure it would have stuck around after he was healed, and if in this film world it was a cursed morgul arrow, it must have had a more potent long term effect, but i dont really want to consider that, its meh


Pandallo
Rivendell

Feb 3 2015, 4:05am

Post #4 of 29 (4295 views)
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Morgul Arrow [In reply to] Can't Post

All a Morgul Arrow implies is that the Arrow came from Minas Morgul which was already known for its dark and foreboding atmosphere if not outright evil, despite the lack of the Ringwraiths. So I think it can be analogous to a mini-version, maybe with a minor curse on it, to the Morgul Blade. I doubt it would have turned Kili into a Wraith, or anything of that sort. But it likely did possess very minor dark powers.


balbo biggins
Rohan


Feb 3 2015, 4:27am

Post #5 of 29 (4266 views)
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disagree [In reply to] Can't Post

well the word morgul means dark sorcery, so that implies its simply a black magic arrow rather than an arrow from minas morgul.


marillaraina
Rohan


Feb 3 2015, 6:10am

Post #6 of 29 (4244 views)
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Hard to tell [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
If Kili had survived the final battle, would his Morgul arrow wound have continued to affect him?

At Weathertop, Frodo was stabbed with a Morgul blade in the shoulder, and the aching stayed with him even after he was supposedly healed, initially by Arwen in the movies using athelas, followed by further treatment under the masterful healing hands of Elrond. The Morgul splinter was successfully removed. After that, Frodo enjoyed a time of peaceful recovery in the beautiful serenity and safe haven of Rivendell. He went on to see his quest to the end. Ultimately, the healing and recovery notwithstanding, the wound affected Frodo so much that in the end he felt there was no choice but to sail West.

In DOS, Kili is pierced by what we are told is a Morgul arrow. Tauriel manages to heal him using athelas, similar to the technique that Arwen used on Frodo. The incantation Tauriel spoke were, in Sindarin, the same words that Arwen, directly translated into Westron, spoke as she treated Frodo. Kili had no follow-up with a healing master like Elrond. There was no recovery period in a secure, peaceful, resort-like facility.

Question: had Kili survived the Battle of the Five Armies, would he have endured a similar, chronic suffering that Frodo experienced, through the rest of his days? Would he have eventually hurt so much that he would wish to end it all (even if he and Tauriel had ended up happily together somehow), assuming he had no way of earning passage to the Undying Lands as Frodo had?


Even as it is in the films, it was not completely healed. He was still limping when they left the lake to head for Erebor, may have still had a slight one when they arrived, I can't remember now, and he was still wearing a bandage on his leg when he died.

The one thing that might be different is that dwarves do not seem to be affected by Sauron's magic the same way men and hobbits are. When they were given the rings, sure it twisted them but it didn't put them under Sauron's control for example.

So the wound might have always bothered him to but maybe not in quite the same way as Frodo. I don't believe dwarves would be become wraiths if such a wound is left untreated, for example.

It just seems to be an agonizingly painful death sentence for a dwarf if not treated with Elvish magic. So a "cured" wound might behave differently as well. I do think there would have been some lingering pain though.

And Kili managed to function for a couple of days with it without a word of complaint about how awful he felt, and he looked like he felt awful.


BlackFox
Half-elven


Feb 3 2015, 6:22pm

Post #7 of 29 (4149 views)
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On Morgul-wounds [In reply to] Can't Post

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Morgul-wound

So yes, I think it's likely that the wound could have stayed to haunt Kili's later days, perhaps shortening his life.



Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Feb 3 2015, 6:34pm

Post #8 of 29 (4121 views)
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Well... [In reply to] Can't Post

Keeping in mind these are the films, and they have appropriated and changed things-- I'd say, no. The Morgul wounds in the books were all inflicted by Nazgul. So, I think it is their signature poison. Sure, you can argue that if it had an external reason for their potency (Made from Nazgul tears, maybe?Tongue) they could confer the power to others, but I think not. If it were do easy to do, why not give the power to more people? Just my instinct...

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


BlackFox
Half-elven


Feb 3 2015, 6:39pm

Post #9 of 29 (4097 views)
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That is true [In reply to] Can't Post

I may have gotten ahead of myself there.



(This post was edited by BlackFox on Feb 3 2015, 6:40pm)


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Feb 3 2015, 7:41pm

Post #10 of 29 (4093 views)
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Do we know that? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think Boromir I is specified as receiving his morgul wound from a Nazgul or a blade is he? Or have I forgotten a quote?


BlackFox
Half-elven


Feb 3 2015, 8:39pm

Post #11 of 29 (4062 views)
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You're right, it isn't [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Boromir was a great captain, and even the Witch-king feared him. He was noble and fair of face, a man strong in body and in will, but he received a Morgul-wound in that war which shortened his days, and he became shrunken with pain and died twelve years after his father.
- The Stewards, (iv) Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion, I The Númenórean Kings, Appendix A, LOTR




(This post was edited by BlackFox on Feb 3 2015, 8:41pm)


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Feb 3 2015, 9:46pm

Post #12 of 29 (4047 views)
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Not explicitly, no... [In reply to] Can't Post

And no 'blade' is mentioned, but I have a hard time imagining that we are supposed to infer any other type of answer.

The Witch-King and Boromir I are mentioned in the same sentence in that citation, and in the next his wound is mentioned. Add the fact that Tolkien was a language professor and had definite purpose in writing as he did. Add to that the fact that only the Witch-King is ever recorded used 'Morgul' weapons. Add also the fact that it was he who stabbed Frodo on Weathertop, then by Occam's razor (Briefly stated as: The simplest explanation is most usually the correct one) I deduce that it was a power inherent to the Nazgul; more specifically the Witch-King.

I hope I don't sound rude or condescending. I just want to state the facts; then my conclusion. In this case, I have a hard time believing that we are meant to infer that Boromir I was wounded to death by person or persons unknown. Why else make the notation?

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Feb 4 2015, 12:04am

Post #13 of 29 (4028 views)
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Actually HOME points us the other way. [In reply to] Can't Post

But no need to fear you sounded negative - it's interesting!

So there are a few suggestions in HOME:

1. It helpfully defines "morgul" for us as being related to arts derived from Morgorth so, actually, non-Nazgul specific.
2. It adds to this by noting that Eol was so great a smith that he was thought to have been using "morgul" arts to produce his weapons (obviously pre-dating the Nazgul by some time)
3. Interestingly in early drafts the weapon which stabs Frodo is not referred to as a "morgul blade" but as a "fell blade - the knife of the Neceomancer"
4. It also notes that Boromir, in earlier drafts, suffered from the "poison" in his "wounds" (NB plural). Of course it is possible a Nazgul stabbed him multiple times with one or more Morgul blades, but it doesn't suggest that at first sight.

So, I think we have a reasonable steer that "morgul" was not solely associated with the Nazgul, to take your first point.

To the second, we might equally ask why Tolkien would not have noted that it was in fact a Nazgul who wounded Boromir, as one could see the foreshadowing of this in the proximate note. It's not awfully leading either way.

I think instead, as we see with much of Tolkien's magic, that it is very difficult to extrapolate consistently from isolated incidents to form general rules.


marillaraina
Rohan


Feb 4 2015, 1:55am

Post #14 of 29 (4009 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Keeping in mind these are the films, and they have appropriated and changed things-- I'd say, no. The Morgul wounds in the books were all inflicted by Nazgul. So, I think it is their signature poison. Sure, you can argue that if it had an external reason for their potency (Made from Nazgul tears, maybe?Tongue) they could confer the power to others, but I think not. If it were do easy to do, why not give the power to more people? Just my instinct...


Exactly which if anything makes it simple - the only use of morgul in the films in conjuction with any type of wound meant the type that was visited upon Frodo. Yes it was by a Nazgul -the Witch King specifically but none the less the word morgul was used to describe the type of weapon AND the damage it did.

Plenty of people were wounded by orcs in those films with all the fighting, it was not suggested that simply being wounded by an orc weapon would cause the same damage.

What's his name the captured orc made sure to specifically mention that the arrow which wounded Kili was of the morgul variety. That suggests that within this film universe it is of the same type and ability to damage as that which wounded Frodo, otherwise no need to even mention it. "It's morgul, which yeah we don't mean that type of morgul..." I don't think so.

I think the difference in reaction to the wounds(beyond that Frodo was stabbed in the upper chest) is more likely to put down the differences in how dwarves and hobbits are made(such as the way they reacted to their 7 rings of power as compared to men--they did not fall to Sauron's direct will, so it's likely they'd be more resistant to a morgul wound as well, it would kill them untreated but not enslave their souls) than it being "not that type of morgul weapon". :D

It was not necessarily easy - remember these orcs had been based out at Dol Goldur for a while, which had been Sauron's secret lair for over a thousand years by that point. I don't see why the morgul shaft couldn't have come from there. He'd certainly know how to get his hands(erm...their hands, he doesn't have any:)) on them. Or perhaps even "infected" some weapons himself. He couldn't physically make a weapon himself but he'd probably be able to curse them.


(This post was edited by marillaraina on Feb 4 2015, 2:00am)


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Feb 4 2015, 2:44am

Post #15 of 29 (3998 views)
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Though... [In reply to] Can't Post

the films in no way suggests the arrow that hit Kili is cursed. We are told that it is poisoned, by the Orc Thranduil interrogates. And that the poison in his blood will cause him to die, if it has not already killed him.

On the other hand, in the FotR EE, Aragorn reveals to the concerned Hobbits that Frodo is about to pass into the shadow world and become a wraith. Despite the word "Morgul" being in the names of both weapons, they are described as having rather different effects.



marillaraina
Rohan


Feb 4 2015, 4:59am

Post #16 of 29 (3998 views)
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Y'all are making this overly complicated :) [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
the films in no way suggests the arrow that hit Kili is cursed. We are told that it is poisoned, by the Orc Thranduil interrogates. And that the poison in his blood will cause him to die, if it has not already killed him.

On the other hand, in the FotR EE, Aragorn reveals to the concerned Hobbits that Frodo is about to pass into the shadow world and become a wraith. Despite the word "Morgul" being in the names of both weapons, they are described as having rather different effects.


Again that can be explained by the difference between Dwarf and Hobbit. As I said, a dwarf most likely wouldn't become a wraith for the same reason the Rings of Power didn't affect all the races the same way. Men, for example, were very susceptible and on the opposite end, the dwarves were very resistant to them, it did make them more prone to greed but it didn't control them to the same extent.

And it was a "poison" with Frodo too because Aragorn thought maybe he could at least stave it off with the Athelas until they could get some Elvish healing magic on him. Tauriel used the same method, only being an elf, she had some elvish healing to call on herself.

IMO they would have simply had the orc say it was a poisoned arrow if they just wanted a poisoned arrow, they used morgul to specifically connect it with the other use of it in the films, the morgul blade that Frodo was stabbed with.

There was poison in both their veins, only that poison would affect each of them differently - Frodo would suffer grievously and, the way I understood it anyway, it would make him like the Ring Wraiths(basically as described by Aragorn "the undead"--not unlike what happens with a vampire, you die but kind of not:), which almost happened. Kili would suffer grievously(more than his injury on young and healthy dwarf should have caused in such a short period of time, dwarves are very hardy folk) and then he would die, which almost happened. It basically insured an excruciating death.


(This post was edited by marillaraina on Feb 4 2015, 5:06am)


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Feb 5 2015, 10:58pm

Post #17 of 29 (3906 views)
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Ah.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank-you for bringing those point up!

Honestly, the introduction of a 'Morgul arrow' felt a bit forced to me. It could have been any other festering injury, and Tauriel could have still healed it, if they held to the fact that Elves had more power in healing than anything else.

Than-you again for bringing up those citations. Can you recall which volume they are in? I admit the matter is more intricate than I first thought, but my gut instinct tells me that it was the W-K who encompassed the doom of Boromir I. I imagine his 'fear' was not abject or cowering in variety, but a healthy sense of paranoia for one's greatest rival. If I had to give some fan-fic here, I'd say he used the Morgul weapon as an underhanded weapon in a battle with Boromir I and retreated once he had released the poison.

All in all, we're comparing apples and oranges when we speculate on the film by using book sources, but it's still fun! Thanks for discussing it!

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Feb 5 2015, 11:02pm

Post #18 of 29 (3904 views)
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Hmmm.... Maybe... [In reply to] Can't Post

All good speculation. Thanks for sharing! I have to think some more about it...

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Feb 5 2015, 11:19pm

Post #19 of 29 (3906 views)
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Not at all - the thing I enjoy most about the adaptations [In reply to] Can't Post

Is that they prompt new opportunities to think about just such issues.

I fully agree that there is no necessity to having a morgul arrow, but then I'm not sure why it's a bad thing either (I'm not sure why it is "forced" - it's just a mention).

On the rest, those are of course totally valid interpretations, but I think the idea that morgul weapons need not be exclusively in the hands of the Nazgul is valid too.

The citations are scattered through the volumes, I'm afraid, rather unhelpfully!


marillaraina
Rohan


Feb 6 2015, 1:15am

Post #20 of 29 (3894 views)
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hmmm. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Is that they prompt new opportunities to think about just such issues.

I fully agree that there is no necessity to having a morgul arrow, but then I'm not sure why it's a bad thing either (I'm not sure why it is "forced" - it's just a mention).

On the rest, those are of course totally valid interpretations, but I think the idea that morgul weapons need not be exclusively in the hands of the Nazgul is valid too.

The citations are scattered through the volumes, I'm afraid, rather unhelpfully!


Yesterday it occurred to me they probably used it to make sure that even if anyone did get away, the group would be fairly quickly slowed up by Kili's injury. If the shot had managed to kill him there on the wall, all the better but you never can be sure, this way so long as he was hit someplace, if he or any of the other dwarves escaped from the orcs, they'd be able to catch up with them fairly quickly.

Not to mention it was clear Kili was a fairly young dwarf and people tend to be protective of their younger ones so all the better to dishearten a group by killing one of it's youngest members in an excruciatingly painful way. It works a psychological device as well in that way.


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Feb 6 2015, 2:31am

Post #21 of 29 (3895 views)
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Yes! [In reply to] Can't Post

As another posted, this 'Morgul arrow' does seem to act differently than the 'Morgul blade' in FotR. I think perhaps because there were no more parallels drawn between them, I assume they act differently. (One acts like a poison, the other steals a soul) Maybe this is why I said it felt 'forced'-- they mention a 'Morgul' weapon, linking it to Frodo's would, but not drawing out any more similarities. It seemed like it was an attempt to link the trilogies, but what exactly did it link? I almost got the impression that they just recycled the name to add something from LotR and put something in that you'd need to be clever and know the books to understand.

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


marillaraina
Rohan


Feb 6 2015, 4:12am

Post #22 of 29 (3897 views)
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I think you have read a lot into it to see it that way [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
As another posted, this 'Morgul arrow' does seem to act differently than the 'Morgul blade' in FotR. I think perhaps because there were no more parallels drawn between them, I assume they act differently. (One acts like a poison, the other steals a soul) Maybe this is why I said it felt 'forced'-- they mention a 'Morgul' weapon, linking it to Frodo's would, but not drawing out any more similarities. It seemed like it was an attempt to link the trilogies, but what exactly did it link? I almost got the impression that they just recycled the name to add something from LotR and put something in that you'd need to be clever and know the books to understand.


I wouldn't assume that. To me the word is enough to tell us they are the same thing. They don't need to go over the whole explanation of it. What else would they say?

First off why would it come up in conversation? None of the dwarves knew Kili had been struck by a morgul shaft(and who knows if they would even know what one would do?) and Tauriel sure as heck didn't have time to go into it when she got there - what with orcs trying to kill everyone. The dwarves don't know, Tauriel has absolutely not a spare second to go into it, so how would they have linked it?

So the word Morgul was going to be the only way to tell us they were the same thing. Kili being a dwarf would not turn into a wraith but I do think there was a hint that it had an effect beyond simply a regular poison. Just before Tauriel started her healing, Kili looks "sightlessly" in Tauriel's direction and then pulls his head back looks up toward's the ceiling, his eyes are a glassy gray there, rather than their usual dark brown.


(I just re-watched the scene to make sure I was remembering it correctly, I had the sound off so ended up really concentrating on the facial expressions, and Turner does such a good job there especially the part right after when he's seeing Tauriel's elvish light, it goes from pain to confusion to a sort of wonder, you can see the effects reversing, really good job)


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Feb 6 2015, 8:49am

Post #23 of 29 (3898 views)
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Shadow illnesses [In reply to] Can't Post

First, about Frodo.


Quote

'Well, yes I am,' said Frodo. 'It is my shoulder. The wound aches, and the memory of darkness is heavy on me. It was a year ago today.' 'Alas! there are some wounds that cannot be wholly cured,' said Gandalf. 'I fear it may be so with mine,' said Frodo. 'There is no real going back. Though I may come to the Shire, it will not seem the same; for I shall not be the same. I am wounded with knife, sting, and tooth, and a long burden. Where shall I find rest?'


The symptoms of the Morgul Knife are described this way:


Quote
Frodo dozed, though the pain of his wound was slowly growing, and a deadly chill was spreading from his shoulder to his arm and side.

Frodo threw himself down and lay on the ground shivering. His left arm was lifeless, and his side and shoulder felt as if icy claws were laid on them.



Frodo's dreams are also described, and though they are not directly attributed to the effects of the wound, they are dark.


Quote

He lay down again and passed into an uneasy dream, in which he walked on the grass in his garden in the Shire, but it seemed faint and dim, less clear than the tall black shadows that stood looking over the hedge.

Frodo lay half in a dream, imagining that endless dark wings were sweeping by above him, and that on the wings rode pursuers that sought him in all the hollows of the hills.

Frodo sat upon the horse in a dark dream


I propose that all these are the effects of the Shadow, and that the Morgul weapons appear to bear a spiritual corruption rather than a physical poison. When Aragorn picks up the Morgul knife, the blade "seemed to melt, and vanished like a smoke in the air". And then Aragorn calls it "this accursed knife". What if he wasn't being poetical there; what if the knife itself was a curse: a literal portion of the Shadow made temporarily solid? It might explain the vanishing only when Aragorn touched it - seeing as the line of the Half-Elven seem to have some inherent strength against the Shadow.

Look also at the way that the Black Breath is described.


Quote
...they called it the Black Shadow, for it came from the Nazgul. And those that were stricken with it fell slowly into an ever deeper dream, and then passed to silence and a deadly cold, and so died.


And also Merry's encounter with a small dose of the Black Breath in Bree:


Quote
I was just going to bolt home, when something came behind me and I ... fell over." "I found him, sir," put in Nob. .... "He seemed to be asleep. "I thought I had fallen into deep water," he says to me, when I shook him. Very queer he was.... "I am afraid that's true," said Merry, "though I don't know what I said. I had an ugly dream, which I can't remember. I went to pieces."

The Morgul knife and the Black Breath seem to have some very similar effects. And it's not the only evidence we have. Frodo also suffered on another yearly anniversary:


Quote
[Sam was] often away in the Shire on his forestry work. So he was not at home in early March and did not know that Frodo had been ill. On the thirteenth of that month Farmer Cotton found Frodo lying on his bed; he was clutching a white gem that hung on a chain about his neck and he seemed half in a dream. "It is gone for ever," he said, "and now all is dark and empty."

Time went on, and 1421 came in. Frodo was ill again in March, but with a great effort he concealed it...

March 13th is the anniversary of Frodo's being captured by the Orcs of Cirith Ungol after being stung by Shelob. It's interesting that it's the waking up to find that the Ring was taken was the thing that he remembered and spoke of, so it's hard to differentiate between the effects of Shelob's sting and the mental/spiritual torture of the loss of the Ring. But one of the effects of the Black Breath (and perhaps also the Knife and Shelob's sting) is dark dreams, so it works both ways.

Here is Frodo's description of what it was like after being stung by Shelob.


Quote
"Something hit me, didn't it? And I fell into darkness and foul dreams, and woke and found that waking was worse."

Shelob is, of course, the last spawn of Ungoliant, a creature which was said to have "descended from the darkness that lies about Arda" (the Void?), and who ate and drank light and "spun it forth again in dark nets of strangling gloom". When she destroyed the Two Trees and drained the Wells of Varda, she "belched forth black vapors as she drank, and swelled to a shape so vast and hideous that Melkor was afraid."


Quote
The Light failed; but the Darkness that followed was more than loss of light. In that hour was made a Darkness that seemed not lack but a thing with being of its own: for it was indeed made by malice out of Light, and it had power to pierce the eye, and to enter heart and mind, and strangle the very will.

Perhaps Shelob's sting is not just the normal venom of a spider, but also carries some of the qualities of Ungoliant's Darkness, and that's why it causes dark dreams. And then Frodo woke to the trauma of orcs and of having lost the Ring.

The Ring, of course, literally contains a portion of Sauron's strength and essence, and eventually causes all of the previous symptoms: it not only corrupts the heart and strangles the will, it also (like the Morgul Knife splinter) pulls the bearer out of the Light into the Shadow permanently. Even if not worn often, it eventually causes the bearer to fade and to see the Darkness and Shadow even in daylight.


Quote
"No taste of food, no feel of water, no sound of wind, no memory of tree or grass or flower, no image of moon or star are left to me. I am naked in the dark, Sam, and there is no veil between me and the wheel of fire. I begin to see it even with my waking eyes, and all else fades."


So I think that the knife, sting, and most of all the long burden damaged Frodo to a point that could not be cured, except by his leaving the corrupted world altogether. I think all his wounds (except the purely physical loss of a finger) are Shadow-related wounds and have a cumulative effect.

But Kili only had an arrow wound. So let's see where this leads us in the question of Kili's wound and the movie use of a "Morgul arrow". Is there any basis for such a thing in the book? Well, there's the interesting example of Faramir. Faramir's illness was compounded of more than one thing.


Quote
Even as the Nazgul had swerved aside from the onset of the White Rider, there came flying a deadly dart, and Faramir ... had fallen to the earth.


This might be where they got the idea for the "Morgul shaft", but according to Aragorn, Faramir's illness, wasn't from the arrow, and the arrow wasn't from the Nazgul.


Quote
"He is nearly spent," said Aragorn turning to Gandalf. "But this comes not from the wound. See! that is healing. Had he been smitten by some dart of the Nazgul, as you thought, he would have died that night. This hurt was given by some Southron arrow, I would guess."

Imrahil confirms that it was a Southron arrow. Aragorn concludes that Farmir's sickness was compounded of "Weariness, grief for his father's mood, a wound, and over all the Black Breath."



All those with the Black Breath/Black Shadow after the battle of the Pelennor seem to be wholly cured by Aragorn's use of athelas. Merry apparently had a very small "dose" during his encounter in Bree, since he could be wakened by Nob and seemed to be fine afterward and never needed any treatment at all. Athelas could not cure Frodo while the portion of the blade was still inside Frodo and working toward his heart (for seventeen days in the book), but the use of it did slow the progress and lessen the symptoms until Elrond's arts could remove the splinter.

With Kili, the arrow did not remain in the wound, and was apparently a mere physical arrow, rather than being of the same stuff as the vaporizing Morgul Knife. If he had a fever, it is more likely to be due to a poison on the arrow than its Morgul-ness. Of course, it may have been both. But to my mind, even if cursed by the Nazgul or the Necromancer, the effects are more likely to be like the Black Breath than the "turns victim into a wraith" sort of thing. (After all, would they want to turn all their enemies into wraiths? I think that's probably reserved for particularly valuable or annoying foes.) Then factor in the general toughness of dwarves, and the quickness with which he seems to recover post-treatment......and all of that was just a really long way to say that I think the effects of the arrow should be reversible by the use of athelas, and had he survived the battle, I think he would have lived a normal lifespan. Cool

Silverlode



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Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Feb 6 2015, 10:49am

Post #24 of 29 (3873 views)
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So two points here, I think. [In reply to] Can't Post

The first being that the arrow is not operationally identical to the knife and secondly that the reference to the arrow connects insufficiently to the knife.

On the first, as with much of Tolkien's magic, I think it's very tricky to form consistent rules about how exactly it operates. We see the same in the text, where Boromir's wound does not obviously seem the same as Frodo's.

There are lots of unknowns in the comparison (was it a knife, was it a Nazgul, in the draft it was not one wound but several etc.) but we can also see differences. With Frodo we are told that he would have died (or faded) in a matter of weeks if he had not been cured by one of the "few" who had the skill to do so (certainly more skill than Aragorn or even Glorfindel had). Boromir, however, lived on for around 14 years after his wound(s) and we have no obvious explanation of who could have performed a similar healing to Elrond's of Frodo.

On the face of it, we have to do as much work or more to arrive at consistency than to arrive at difference - so I'm not sure the assupmtion of consistency is all that justfied (certainly, we see little of it with magic anywhere else in the tales).

On the second, it seems to me, there are more connections between the two morgul wounds than just the name, in the films. In both episodes, we see our short hero wounded, but survive. They are carried on by there companions before athelas is sought to help the wound (and in both cases the idea that this is thought simply to be a weed is mentioned). Finally in both cases elvish healing is applied and in both cases female elves have a glowy part to play in the process. I think it's hard for me not to see these as deliberately inter-referenced sequences.


(This post was edited by Spriggan on Feb 6 2015, 10:50am)


Ruxendil_Thoorg
Tol Eressea


Feb 6 2015, 2:03pm

Post #25 of 29 (3866 views)
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Thanks so much! [In reply to] Can't Post

I appreciate everyone's thoughtful posts in this thread, especially the considerable effort that went into yours, Silverlode.

I'm grateful to find in this thread thoughtful and reasoned arguments on both sides. I take away the following points:

1. Though both Frodo and Kili are said to have suffered wounds of a morgul nature, Frodo went through more morgul- or Shadow- related wounds, and spent much more time carrying those sufferings, than did Kili.

2. On the other hand, tragically for Kili, we can't know for sure how potent Kili's morgul wound was.

We can make guesses based on the circumstances we are shown in the movies, but that's pretty much the extent of it within our ken.

If I had to hazard a guess, after reading everyone's posts to date, I would lean toward the side that says Kili wouldn't have hurt as much or for as long as Frodo did. It seems unlikely that Bolg, a non-Nazgul, would happen to carry an arrow with him that happened to have morgul potency anywhere equal to what Frodo endured, i.e., the wound of the Witch-king's Weathertop knife, plus Shelob's sting (which Silverlode has convinced me is Shadow-related if not technically morgul in nature), plus having carried the Ring for as long and as far as he did, plus anything else I missed.

However, I still don't have a guess whether Kili would have continued hurting from the morgul arrow, had he survived the battle, or for how long.

I might imagine that if he had ended up with Tauriel in a long term relationship, she should have been able to treat his wounds periodically so that he would be able to enjoy his life, especially a life of love and companionship with her. So, one thing I'm sure of: whether his morgul wound would have stayed with him or not, it makes his battlefield death no less tragic.

***

He was born of mortal frailty mixed with Elven fallen realm,
Comin’ home to a land he’d never been before.
Arvernian behind him, sailed the seas of Middle-earth,
You might say he didn’t know what lay in store.

When his wife came out to find him she'd been turned into a bird,
Upon her breast there shone a shining star,
So he took her to his bosom, and by morn her form returned,
And he shifted West to find the high Valar.

And in Valinor he went before the high,
In doing so, resigned himself to die.
Take up arms against the Shadow, asked he of the high,
of the Valar high. (Fight, fight the Shadow)
of the Valar high. (Fight, fight the Shadow)

* * *
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