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balbo biggins
Rohan
Feb 4 2015, 8:21pm
Post #1 of 143
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what would you change about smaugs death
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for me it was al going great , good build up , bard running across the rooftops..but then he jammed his broken bow into the structure he was on and then nearly sliced off his sons head! it felt wrong, physically unbelievable and ruined a perfectly good scene. the rest was great.
what would you change? n.b no need to state that you wouldnt change anything.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Feb 4 2015, 8:27pm
Post #2 of 143
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Do you mean if I was making my own hypothetical version of the story, or if I hd had influence over the existing production what would I have suggested be changed or if I could create an alternative scene and insert it into the existing films via editing?
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Merovech
Bree
Feb 4 2015, 8:28pm
Post #3 of 143
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I don't agree with PJs apparent conviction that to be impressive, a scene needs to have a ton of false-twists (Bain nearly falling off the building, bow breaking) or have shaky implications in terms of physics, so I would have scrapped all that create-your-own-bow nonsense.
The Windlance was built up in the previous film, so I would have used it here. Have Bard escape from jail, rally a few leaderless guards to fire at the dragon, let Bain have his moment delivering the Black Arrow somehow, and then have Bard climb the tower, talking to Smaug- 'Oh I remember this foul machine... they failed your ancestor in Dale, and it will fail you now' or whatever, then have Bard reveal the Arrow and shoot Smaug.
(This post was edited by entmaiden on Feb 5 2015, 10:27pm)
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BlackFox
Half-elven
Feb 4 2015, 8:40pm
Post #4 of 143
(1247 views)
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... the Necromancer bring him back to life. 
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Feb 4 2015, 8:46pm
Post #5 of 143
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Perhaps you would like to edit that?
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balbo biggins
Rohan
Feb 4 2015, 8:47pm
Post #6 of 143
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Do you mean if I was making my own hypothetical version of the story, or if I hd had influence over the existing production what would I have suggested be changed or if I could create an alternative scene and insert it into the existing films via editing?
no, if you were writing the pre production treatment that was presented to the film studios..in an alternative universe, imagine you were PJs twin, but in a reversed world...and you only spoke japanese
get it?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Feb 4 2015, 9:13pm
Post #8 of 143
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for me it was al going great , good build up , bard running across the rooftops..but then he jammed his broken bow into the structure he was on and then nearly sliced off his sons head! it felt wrong, physically unbelievable and ruined a perfectly good scene. the rest was great.
what would you change? n.b no need to state that you wouldnt change anything.
I just don't buy that that juryrigged bow would perform as advertised. I want the MythBusters to take that on! Maybe Smaug's (alleged) attempt to destroy the windlance is only partially successful and Bard is able to repair it enough to get off his shot.
Truthfully, though, I might have scaled Smaug down a bit so that Bard could have fired a more normally-sized Black Arrow from his own long bow.
"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.
"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet." - Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Feb 4 2015, 9:17pm)
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Darkstone
Immortal
Feb 4 2015, 9:35pm
Post #9 of 143
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Smaug: "I'll see you in another life. When we are both cats." /
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******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Donry
Tol Eressea
Feb 4 2015, 9:45pm
Post #10 of 143
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How about him living, destroying Lake Town and joining forces with Sauron.....wreaking havoc all across Middle Earth! Smaug unleashed! (insert Vincent Price evil laugh here)...
What's the matter, James? No glib remark? No pithy comeback?"
Twitter - @DonryFetor
FB - https://www.facebook.com/donryfetortheouthouse
Instagram - donryfetor
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Skaan
Lorien
Feb 4 2015, 10:02pm
Post #11 of 143
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I'd change Smaug's actual death scene. I actually liked the scene where Bard was aiming the arrow on his son's shoulders, but Smaug's death felt a bit too anti-climactic to me. I liked the image of him trying to fly up into the air after he was shot, but i wanted his fall on top of Laketown to be more destructive, because it didn't really feel like his fall had that much impact.
I also wanted Smaug's fall to have music accompanying the scene, rather than the muted scene we got now.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Feb 4 2015, 10:02pm
Post #12 of 143
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They could form The Legion of Mount Doom!
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Here's The Hall of Mount Doom HQ in The Dead Marshes:
They'd fight against their archnemeses, The Fellowship Friends!
This could work!!
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Feb 4 2015, 10:04pm)
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Brethil
Half-elven
Feb 4 2015, 10:04pm
Post #13 of 143
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Ooooo! Can the Fellowship Friends ride in the Van???
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Oh please!?
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Darkstone
Immortal
Feb 4 2015, 10:12pm
Post #14 of 143
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Aragorn and Legolas went now with Éomer in the van.
-Helm’s Deep, Chapter 7, Book III, The Two Towers
(pic courtesy of Brethil)
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Feb 4 2015, 10:15pm)
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Bishop
Gondor
Feb 4 2015, 10:20pm
Post #15 of 143
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I can only say what I was hoping for
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It's hard to offer opinions sometimes without sounding like one knows better than the director, but sometimes you go into a scene with certain expectations. The death of Smaug is one of those scenes that is so front loaded with expectation it's not difficult to understand why many people will have very different opinions on it.
IMO the good:
The scene is certainly exciting. And I almost enjoyed the build up to the attack more than the attack itself. Smaug's shadowy flyby's before there's any actual fire are absolutely horrifying. Once the attack happens and Bard frees himself the action is pretty spectacular. I love the conceit of the bell tower, and Bain's involvement in the scene. Also I found Bard's physicality in shooting the arrows to be really intriguing; there's a desperation and supreme confidence simultaneously in his action that is amazing. The moment of arrow impact and Smaug's death looks great.
IMO the bad:
The scene is way WAY too short, which frustrates me to no end given the iconic nature of this sequence and the three movie bloat. How Jackson didn't find time to let this sequence breathe is ponderous. The buildup to the wind lance is abandoned completely, which I guess is logical given the circumstances; Bard doesn't have the black arrow, so he wouldn't go to it anyways. But then why even make a big deal out of the wind lance in the first place? But then the black arrow creates all kinds of problems. It is silly that Bard considered firing the black arrow from the bow given its size, which he does before he realizes the bow is broken. But then the idea that he could macgyver a wind lance with a broken bow and string and fire that thing borders on preposterous. He is a bowman. I wish they had found a way in the narrative to let him be one. And finally I just kept hoping for some play on the words "Fly, black arrow", but that's a really personal expectation of mine. The words "a little to the left, that's it" just don't have the same gravitas. 
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Donry
Tol Eressea
Feb 4 2015, 10:30pm
Post #16 of 143
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back this beauty of a sound effect all over the place...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Nb_mH4Q4mw&index=23&list=PL3Lq21lXygJi0k1Nug1kykO8DrKRpTykh
What's the matter, James? No glib remark? No pithy comeback?"
Twitter - @DonryFetor
FB - https://www.facebook.com/donryfetortheouthouse
Instagram - donryfetor
Blog - donryfetorsouthouse.wordpress.com
(This post was edited by Donry on Feb 4 2015, 10:35pm)
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balbo biggins
Rohan
Feb 4 2015, 10:47pm
Post #17 of 143
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i agree with the points you bring up, especially the lemgth of the sequence, compared to the DOS finale which wasnt even in the book, the lake town destruction should have been equally as long if not longer, and smaugs death played out for as long as possible, its the best part of the story! and it was a 'prologue' to the film hmmm
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burrahobbit
Rohan
Feb 4 2015, 10:51pm
Post #18 of 143
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Legolas should have killed him!!
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Just kidding 
Smaug's attack was probably the best part of BotFA in terms of visuals. But since you ask, I would have changed a few things.
I thought Lake town should have had some soldiers who Bard could have rallied, as in the book. This would have given Smaug some more enemies to tackle, and made him more fearsome. Smaug did a lot of house burning, but given the change to a LotR style Hobbit, I think having a bit more full on soldier roasting, even eating, would have worked. Spying the master's gold and eating him might have been fun!
Then I wasn't too keen on the black arrow changes. The hastily put together bow was completely unrealistic, the inclusion of his son a bit corny. And then the dialogue- "You are forsaken", "A little to the left". Definitely not Tolkien standard.
The inclusion of the thrush was unlikely to happen in this adaptation, but by excluding this element, it means that Bilbo's identification of the weak spot was completely pointless.
(This post was edited by burrahobbit on Feb 4 2015, 10:55pm)
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Bishop
Gondor
Feb 4 2015, 11:05pm
Post #19 of 143
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When it comes to this scene there are cues from the book that are surprisingly absent given Jackson's preternatural flare for complex action sequences. The idea of Smaug making sport of people escaping on boats for example. To Smaug this is all good malicious fun.
The entirety of Laketown is basically on fire instantly, leaving no room for any kind of dramatic structure to the actual attack, which lasts for about 8 minutes.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Feb 4 2015, 11:15pm
Post #20 of 143
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Just to see what effect that would have on a dragon.
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Ruxendil_Thoorg
Tol Eressea
Feb 4 2015, 11:35pm
Post #21 of 143
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I loved the sequence, and I tend to forgive the implausibility of loosing the black arrow from Bain's shoulder without decapitating.
If anything I might try to make it clear how Bain didn't get his neck cut. Some kind of makeshift device to serve as a launching shelf for safety, perhaps. Bard seems like a handy fellow who could somehow use pieces of the belvedere to juryrig one along with his improvised ballista.
I might also add a little snippet showing the windlance getting wrecked, which Bard sees just as he is making his way toward it. Or, as Bard desperately heads to where the windlance should be, a recognizable broken piece of it lands in his path, prompting him to despair momentarily, then change course for the belfry where he ends up.
***
He was born of mortal frailty mixed with Elven fallen realm,
Comin’ home to a land he’d never been before.
Arvernian behind him, sailed the seas of Middle-earth,
You might say he didn’t know what lay in store.
When his wife came out to find him she'd been turned into a bird,
Upon her breast there shone a shining star,
So he took her to his bosom, and by morn her form returned,
And he shifted West to find the high Valar.
And in Valinor he went before the high,
In doing so, resigned himself to die.
Take up arms against the Shadow, asked he of the high,
of the Valar high. (Fight, fight the Shadow)
of the Valar high. (Fight, fight the Shadow)
* * *
http://newboards.theonering.net/...forum_view_expanded;
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Feb 5 2015, 12:01am
Post #22 of 143
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I wouldn't change anything from this sequence – it is extraordinary.
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balbo biggins
Rohan
Feb 5 2015, 12:13am
Post #23 of 143
(1071 views)
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I wouldn't change anything from this sequence – it is extraordinary.
you just couldnt help it!
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moreorless
Gondor
Feb 5 2015, 12:22am
Post #24 of 143
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I suspect we'll get this in the EE..
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I loved the sequence, and I tend to forgive the implausibility of loosing the black arrow from Bain's shoulder without decapitating.
If anything I might try to make it clear how Bain didn't get his neck cut. Some kind of makeshift device to serve as a launching shelf for safety, perhaps. Bard seems like a handy fellow who could somehow use pieces of the belvedere to juryrig one along with his improvised ballista.
I might also add a little snippet showing the windlance getting wrecked, which Bard sees just as he is making his way toward it. Or, as Bard desperately heads to where the windlance should be, a recognizable broken piece of it lands in his path, prompting him to despair momentarily, then change course for the belfry where he ends up.
Luke Evans did mention that a more extended scene on the rooftops with Bard was cut back on with the TE. I would be surprised if it isn't included in the EE and features the wind lance being destroyed.
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Kirly
Lorien
Feb 5 2015, 12:29am
Post #25 of 143
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That is my answer to almost all questions regarding changing the movies.
I just wanted to say that.
My avatar photo is Lake Tekapo in New Zealand's South Island. Taken by me in 2004 on a Red Carpet Tours LOTR Movie Location Tour. 'Twas the Vacation of a Lifetime!
pictures taken while on the tour are here:
https://picasaweb.google.com/Kirly7/LOTRNewZealandTour#
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