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lionoferebor
Rohan
Feb 3 2015, 8:35pm
Post #1 of 12
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The Uncle/Nephew/Niece Relationship
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Just my ramble.
If you are familiar with Tolkien you may know he had a fascination with the Anglo-Saxon culture. He especially valued the relationship between maternal uncle/aunt and nephew/niece. We see examples of this in The Hobbit with Thorin, Fili, and Kili; and again in LOTR with Théoden, Éomer, and Éowyn.
So, what was the significance of the relationship between a man/woman and his/her's sister's children? I did a little digging and came across this little tidbit:
Sexual behavior was quite loose among early medieval peoples, and because a man could never know for sure if his wife's or concubine's children were his or another's, the strongest adult-child ties tended not to be parent-child, but uncle-nephew, nephew-aunt, aunt-niece, etc. A person could always count on his or her sister's children to be blood relatives; hence the most important relationships were usually sibling, aunt/uncle/niece/nephew, and cousin relationships.
http://homepages.bw.edu/...er/oldrieveintro.htm
I found this interesting, especially in regards to the book-verse deaths of Fili and Kili, who died defending Thorin, and Éowyn's stand against the Witch King to protect Théoden. For me, it adds that much more to those moments.
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Feb 3 2015, 8:52pm
Post #2 of 12
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I was thinking also of the JRRT's loss of his parents as a young boy and essentially being raised by a local priest. I know there were issues between his mother and her family due to her conversion to RCC (I believe they were Unitarian). Not sure if any uncles in his family played a role in his life.
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lionoferebor
Rohan
Feb 3 2015, 9:01pm
Post #3 of 12
(1957 views)
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about Tolkien. Learn something new every day. 
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Feb 3 2015, 9:41pm
Post #6 of 12
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Another twist http://www.catholicauthors.com/tolkien.html
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"Her conversion incurred the immediate wrath of her family. Her father, who had been brought up Methodist but had since lapsed further from orthodoxy into Unitarianism, was outraged. Her brother-in-law withdrew the little financial help that he had provided since she had become a widow, plunging her and her children into poverty. She also met with considerable opposition from her late husband's family, many of whom were Baptists with strong anti-Catholic prejudices. The emotional strain affected her health adversely but, undaunted, she began to instruct her sons in the faith."
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Feb 4 2015, 2:39am
Post #9 of 12
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Right. But I was referring to her family who were not Anglican.
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shadowdog
Rohan
Feb 4 2015, 5:00pm
Post #10 of 12
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Perhaps somebody can help me here
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I was raised a Catholic and went to Catholic elementary school being taught from the Catechism. I was struck when I first started studying Tolkien that his story of creation was identical in many respects to what I was taught. God created the angels and they started singing in his praise. They were all singing in concert when on angel who was starting to think of himself as superior to the other angels started creating his own song. At first they was confusion then some angels broke off and started singing the song he was creating. God got angry that his power was being challenged and cast the "angel" (Lucifer) and those who followed him out of heaven and down below.
I know this is not the biblical story of creation but is part of the Catholic "tradition" I was taught. Does anybody know where this story came from and how it got to be part of Catholic tradition and teaching. It would appear that Tolkien was exposed to it during his upbringing.
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Feb 4 2015, 6:28pm
Post #11 of 12
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Yes, the Silmarillion is indeed a very similar creation story to Genesis.
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JRRT was Roman Catholic and included similar creation mytho / stories into his work as "sub-creation". It was not meant to be allegorical but similarities certainly present themselves.
Other cultural influences shaped the work as well...Nordic / Finnish elements.
There are many books available that discuss in detail the connections.
A quick online search found this discussion:
http://www.storiesofarda.com/...d=6603&cid=28581
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Feb 4 2015, 6:33pm)
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zarabia
Tol Eressea
Feb 5 2015, 6:08am
Post #12 of 12
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I don't think it informed his depiction of the relationship between Theoden and Eowyn and Eomere completely. Theoden loved Theodred and was devastated when he died. He didn't favor Eomere or Eowyn over Theodred. But it does help explain why he feels especially close to Eowyn. I love my sister's kids almost like they were my own, but it doesn't seem like it's always been the case historically that an uncle would feel so paternal towards his sister's children.
Anyway, interesting. 
You realize that life goes fast
It's hard to make the good things last
You realize the sun doesn't go down
It's just an illusion caused by the world spinning 'round
~Do You Realize?, The Flaming Lips
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