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Macfeast
Rohan
Feb 5 2015, 2:32pm
Post #51 of 74
(665 views)
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I'm sorry to hear that people are being snarky, and that it is driving people away.
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Though personally, I don't think there is anything wrong with the threads you refer to; To me, they are interesting storytelling exercises, invitations to discuss how alternate storytelling scenarios could have been constructed. Even the sections of a film that I like (and as far as the Hobbit-films go, there are many of them), I can imagine playing out in a multitude of different ways; There isn't only the one true way that any given sequence could play out. To me, speculating and analyzing is part of the joy of storytelling, just as much as the act of experiencing a story.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Feb 5 2015, 2:39pm
Post #52 of 74
(666 views)
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It's all a question of tone...
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Playing with alternative ideas, playing with humour around the film is all good. Adaptation is a matter of making choices and there are always other choices that could have been made - talking about those in a friendly atmosphere is fun. Sometimes it seems to me that isn't what's happening...
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Elessar
Valinor
Feb 5 2015, 3:09pm
Post #53 of 74
(652 views)
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the tone of how things are approached. If it's in good taste I don't see any issue but sometimes it comes from a place of I could do it better (see fan edits). That tends to tick me off.
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balbo biggins
Rohan
Feb 5 2015, 3:13pm
Post #54 of 74
(673 views)
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Playing with alternative ideas, playing with humour around the film is all good. Adaptation is a matter of making choices and there are always other choices that could have been made - talking about those in a friendly atmosphere is fun. Sometimes it seems to me that isn't what's happening...
you should paint your kettle black domouse, some people just enjoy having a discussion, without having to be constantly told its perfect the way it is, we get that, but theres no need to reassert it on every thread. thats why i politely asked those who thought it was perfect to refrain for once.
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Macfeast
Rohan
Feb 5 2015, 3:17pm
Post #55 of 74
(657 views)
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That comes from both sides, I think.
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It is just as much the responses to the suggestion of alternative scenarios, as it is the original suggestion, that contributes to the tone. Sometimes, the original question is posed with a negative angle; "This was bad, how would you do it better?". Sometimes, the original question is perfectly harmless, yet the responses attribute to it a negative angle; "How would you do this?", responded to with "I wouldn't change anything, what makes you think we have any right to improve upon PJ's work?". I've seen both scenarios play out in the recent days.
In any case, I try not to look at which angle the original question is posed from. I mean, sure, it is unfortunate if the person posing the question feels that a sequence was bad, and could have been done better, but ultimately, I try not to let that influence how I read the question and respond to it. "Is there potentially good discussion to be had?", I tend to ask myself, and if the answer is yes, then I think the question is worthwhile, regardless of whether the question comes from "this was bad, how could it have been done better", or "this was good, but in an hypothetical alternative scenario". Obviously this only applies as long as the question isn't posed in an unconstructive and offensive manner... but you can be unconstructive and offensive when it comes to positive feelings about a film, too; "This scene was great, take that purists", for example. The most recent of the threads referred to have struck me as fairly inoffensive (a select few snarky and unconstructive responses, from both sides, aside) and while I obviously think it is unfortunate that people find them depressing... I don't see many other ways in which these questions could have been posed, lest they not be posed altogether.
(This post was edited by Macfeast on Feb 5 2015, 3:29pm)
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Darkstone
Immortal
Feb 5 2015, 4:35pm
Post #56 of 74
(659 views)
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So I can dictate how people respond to my posts?
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Cool!
Any reply to this post must contain at least 10 smilies.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Feb 5 2015, 4:37pm)
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Feb 5 2015, 4:49pm
Post #57 of 74
(629 views)
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It is like a 'relentless tide', and I'm not sure why it is happening here. IMdB is probably the most responsive place to vent personal displeasure at specific films, rather than a site that is generally supportive of them.
It is a shame that several people have been driven away from the site due to these occurrences.
...for the people who really enjoy the films and are finding the relentless tide of 'what would you change' threads so depressing that they're posting elsewhere or walking away. I've just had someone being snarky with me for saying I thought a particular scene was outstanding - apparently that's not allowed...
(This post was edited by Glorfindela on Feb 5 2015, 4:52pm)
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Eledhwen
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Feb 5 2015, 5:29pm
Post #58 of 74
(615 views)
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That TORN encourages polite and lively debate on the films, and opinions from both sides are welcomed and encouraged. Everyone is welcome to post in all threads so long as they abide by our board rules and guidelines. So far this thread's been pretty okay - don't let it degenerate! Those who would change elements of the films and those who would not are all entitled to their thoughts.
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Macfeast
Rohan
Feb 5 2015, 6:01pm
Post #59 of 74
(606 views)
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Perhaps people don't want echo chambers?
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I for one am more interested in constructive discussion with someone who disagrees with me, and can offer alternate viewpoints, than someone who is just going to say "I agree" and offer nothing else. I loved the films... but give me a good argument for why you don't like them, and I'll happily engage you in discussion about it. I would find this place much less interesting if those who didn't like the films just migrated to somewhere else.
Obviously it is a shame that people feel driven away... but people from both sides of the spectrum must be allowed to say their piece.
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Feb 5 2015, 6:47pm
Post #60 of 74
(596 views)
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And I've already listed the things I don't like about the films several times (though I've said that for me the things I do like about BoFA and AUJ far outweigh the things I don't like). I too like constructive criticism, and would find purely gushing, complimentary opinions to be quite a bore. However, when the same old 'issues' are raised, and the same statements about not liking the film, over and over again, often from the same posters, and often given in a 'mischievous' and/or 'sneery' tone that appears to be designed to provoke others, it becomes really tiresome and makes people who love the film in question react in a negative way.
As a matter of fact I am guilty of this myself – and I didn't actually realise I was until I came across all the 'vanity project' threads about how posters could make the film better than PJ's by cutting his version, etc., some of which I found insulting to both PJ and all the people who had put so much into the films. I frequently criticised two elements of DoS that actually ruined the film for me. However, by doing this I probably irritated not only other posters, but also (certainly) myself. So I decided not to take this tack any more, except to occasionally post what I don't like about the films, usually as a by the way. Makes things so much more pleasant all around.
I for one am more interested in constructive discussion with someone who disagrees with me, and can offer alternate viewpoints, than someone who is just going to say "I agree" and offer nothing else. I loved the films... but give me a good argument for why you don't like them, and I'll happily engage you in discussion about it. I would find this place much less interesting if those who didn't like the films just migrated to somewhere else.
Obviously it is a shame that people feel driven away... but people from both sides of the spectrum must be allowed to say their piece.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Feb 5 2015, 6:55pm
Post #61 of 74
(585 views)
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'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Elessar
Valinor
Feb 5 2015, 7:27pm
Post #63 of 74
(577 views)
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problem is that doesn't happen often. I'm willing to talk about stuff in the way you are but ya know. 
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Macfeast
Rohan
Feb 5 2015, 7:37pm
Post #64 of 74
(567 views)
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I do see where you're coming from.
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I just don't think the aforementioned threads are really that offensive in this regard, and when they are referred to as such, it makes it seem as if it is criticism of any kind that is not appreciated, rather than unconstructive behavior. There is nothing harmful in my eyes about talking about how Smaug's death, Kíli's design, or the dwarves' arrival at Bag End, could have been done differently... not even if it suggested that "it could have been better" (and it should be noted that only one of the aforementioned three threads even made such a suggestion; The other two took no stance on the issue whatsoever).
As for repeated criticism... I dunno, this forum seems to go in cycles, prior points of discussion climbing back into the spotlight at regular intervals. Opportunity for newcomers, and those who missed it the last time around, to say their piece, I say, opportunity to inject something new into the picture. As long as you're being constructive and inoffensive about it, it is no problem in my eyes. I've been a part of many "dwarf beards"-threads over the years, but I often feel like I walk away with something new from them, everytime they conclude; I would have stopped participating in them years ago, were that not the case.
(This post was edited by Macfeast on Feb 5 2015, 7:46pm)
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Macfeast
Rohan
Feb 5 2015, 7:42pm
Post #65 of 74
(566 views)
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... I thought the aforementioned "how would you do"-threads were inoffensive and harmless, perfect opportunities for constructive discussion... and I would be happy to contribute more to said threads, were it not that people referred to them as depressing, harmful, and eye rolling.
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Elessar
Valinor
Feb 5 2015, 7:55pm
Post #66 of 74
(552 views)
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Though as if we're covering the same things in those threads or that every topic is being done (I'm exaggerating I know). As far as me calling them eye rolling that shouldn't stop people from participating in them. So by all means go ahead. 
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Macfeast
Rohan
Feb 5 2015, 8:06pm
Post #67 of 74
(542 views)
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Most topics have indeed been done, positive topics just as much as negative topics.
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That doesn't mean that there isn't room for any new development within them. I walk away from many repeat-threads with new insight, new ideas, and new thoughts. Just give it time.
As for the eye rolling part, I merely meant to suggest that I think that there actually are constructive discussions, of the like which you express interest in, going on... but they are dismissed as unconstructive and not worthwhile.
(This post was edited by Macfeast on Feb 5 2015, 8:12pm)
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Elessar
Valinor
Feb 5 2015, 8:10pm
Post #68 of 74
(549 views)
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I'm sure lots have been repeated.
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I don't disagree. Though that was never my point.
I'm sure there are and when I see a post I feel is that way I'll try to respond. That's all I can do.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Feb 5 2015, 8:22pm
Post #69 of 74
(541 views)
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Back when the LOTR movies were first coming out Tornsib "nefisa" did a "How To Fix..." series. Lots of fun, even if you didn't think a scene needed to be "fixed".
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Arannir
Valinor
Feb 5 2015, 8:31pm
Post #70 of 74
(529 views)
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It is just as much the responses to the suggestion of alternative scenarios, as it is the original suggestion, that contributes to the tone. Sometimes, the original question is posed with a negative angle; "This was bad, how would you do it better?". Sometimes, the original question is perfectly harmless, yet the responses attribute to it a negative angle; "How would you do this?", responded to with "I wouldn't change anything, what makes you think we have any right to improve upon PJ's work?". I've seen both scenarios play out in the recent days. ___________________________________________________________ It definately comes from both sides. When it comes to criticism and there is only one poster overdoing it, it sometimes felt like everyone stating negative points were thrown in the same basket and their arguments basically ignored - which is a shame on a discussion board. I still think that most posters here contribute to nice and interesting discussions. But I cannot help but feel irritated of how differently the tone becomes towards you once you post negative points about the movies and how quickly you are either asked to defend your opinion or being told that it is probably you who did something wrong and therefore disliked the movie or even chose to dislike it. Anyway, we are still pretty close to release and things tend to be more emotional at this point ;) I am sure things will settle soon enough. And thanks for your very balanced and well-stated post, Macfeast.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
(This post was edited by Arannir on Feb 5 2015, 8:43pm)
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Feb 5 2015, 9:20pm
Post #71 of 74
(515 views)
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Wow, nefisa ... that is going back a while.
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(Note: this post contains invisible smilies)
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Feb 5 2015, 10:57pm
Post #72 of 74
(505 views)
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I agree, though then it seems a bit odd
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To seek to veto responses, doesn't it? But, in general, I think people can post whatever they fancy (within the TOS).
It does seem an odd question to ask so frequently to me (but that's only a personal view), as it seems to me to mistake the role of the audience. I can't think that there are lots of posts in the reading room on "How would you rewrite chapter 11?". But all that's by the by - people can post it if they like.
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Feb 6 2015, 5:20am
Post #73 of 74
(489 views)
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when I rolled an Elf in a D&D game and had no idea what to do with it...
I loved the complexity of LOTR, and was mildly amused by the Hobbit... sort of. I appreciate the films for making Hobbit more interesting for me, more like LOTR.
Hobbit has been done so often, as school plays even, that trying to do another film first would have been 
Someone had to try to do LOTR justice first. And PJ got to do what I feel Tolkien would have done if he'd got around to it... made Hobbit into something that meshed more with LOTR.
Na 'Aear, na 'Aear! Mýl 'lain nallol, I sûl ribiel a i falf 'loss reviol...
To the sea, to the sea, the white gulls are crying, the wind is blowing and the white foam is flying...
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sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea
Feb 6 2015, 1:32pm
Post #74 of 74
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Eh, i think that's the least of the trilogy's problems.
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3 films instead of 2, bizarre made-up story lines, juvenile attempts at humor, the decision to shoot in 3D which denied the use of miniatures, over-reliance on cgi-- those were all of much more consequence in how the films turned out. I think The Hobbit would have worked better (in my opinion of course) if Jackson, Walsh and Boyens had tried to stay a little more true to the spirit of the book, and a little more true to the spirit with which LotR was filmed, and just kept things more simple. It was all just too overblown for what the story of The Hobbit was able to support.
The one thing we might have been spared of if The Hobbit had been shot first is the shoehorning in of Legolas.
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oops!
