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Baby supersticious: Dwarven beliefs contradiction?

Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea


Feb 2 2015, 11:31am

Post #1 of 14 (869 views)
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Baby supersticious: Dwarven beliefs contradiction? Can't Post

Hi all

In AUJ we learned that dwarves are very supersticious (wich I loved): the ravens prophecy, the map prophecy itself, the moon runes sort of prophecy fullfilled (Thorin being there in that exactly moment) and the good omen.

And in DoS: the possibility that cursed stones (like Kili´s one, ok it is not but he says so to Tauriel so those kind of things may be well exsist in dwarven culture)

However, in DoS EE during withe stagg scene Thorin says: We create or own luck!

Is that a bit of a misstep in character developement? I mean having Thorin all supersticious and suddenly having him saying that...mmmmm

The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true

Survivor to the battle for the fifth trailer

Hobbit Cinema Marathon Hero



QuackingTroll
Valinor


Feb 2 2015, 11:48am

Post #2 of 14 (567 views)
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Also 13 being an unlucky number... [In reply to] Can't Post

I think this line was intended to be a bit out-of character, it shows that the forest is getting to him and infecting his mind.


Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea


Feb 2 2015, 11:55am

Post #3 of 14 (538 views)
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wow I forgot the lucky number! [In reply to] Can't Post

 

The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true

Survivor to the battle for the fifth trailer

Hobbit Cinema Marathon Hero



Bombadil
Half-elven


Feb 2 2015, 12:14pm

Post #4 of 14 (537 views)
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MiddleEARTH is a SUPER-SIZED MYTH [In reply to] Can't Post

conjured UP by a PROFESSOR
who was jus' Trying to SPARK the
Imaginations of his Kids, who @ their Stage of Development
...were Still Scared of the DARK?

No one would ever doubt that "being in the DARK"?

STILL is somewhat SCARY..
EVEN for so-called...ADULTS
THAT.. we call ourselves..Today

BOO! ..Screamed @ YOU
in a Forest as Dark as Mirkwood...
would SCARE anyone.

JRRT wrote quite a Suspenseful Novel
&
If he didn't Scare you? while reading it for the FIRST Time
SOMETHING izz WRONG with you.

IT izz Still a STRANGE thing to Read
since.."ONCE Tolkien Takes Hold,
MiddleEARTH NEVER letz GOoo."

FACE it, we are
ALL Tolkien's Children a, a, a, Haunted Hundred years LATER?
Crazy

www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"


dormouse
Half-elven


Feb 2 2015, 1:17pm

Post #5 of 14 (540 views)
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Don't know - I took that to be more about Thorin's resentment of elves... [In reply to] Can't Post

...Thranduil in particular. The white stag is supposed to be connected with Thranduil, isn't it? There was something in Thorin's tone of voice when he said "We make our own luck" that reminded me of the way he reacts to anything elvish. He's already heading through Mirkwood, so knows he's likely to encounter the elves; he's been told to follow the elf path (I bet that annoyed him!).

I see his shooting at the stag as an act of defiance. "We make out own luck" meaning "bother elves and everything about them!"


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Feb 2 2015, 3:17pm

Post #6 of 14 (493 views)
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I think a bit of pride as Dormouse says. [In reply to] Can't Post

Plays into the question.

However, in addition, even superstitious people aren't superstitious in a universal way. Those who say a little rhyme when they see a magpie don't necessarily believe in ghosts. Those who believe in life after death don't necessarily worry about walking under ladders.

Futhermore, what people express isn't usually consistent. Irreligous folks may still whisper a prayer in extremis and those who believe in fate in some aspects of their lives will still express ideas of luck in others.

I don't think I've yet met someone whose expressed philosophical stance is 100% coherent!


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Feb 2 2015, 4:07pm

Post #7 of 14 (483 views)
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FYI [In reply to] Can't Post

For future reference, the word is superstitious (at least as we spell it in English).

I'm not so sure that it is a mischaracterization so much as a sign of Thorin's self-confidence and (perhaps) arrogance. In any case, the prophesies seem to be working for him, telling him that this is the time to return to Erebor.

And of course, when Thorin defies the possible omen of the stag, everything starts to go wrong!

"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.

"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet."
- Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)


Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea


Feb 2 2015, 4:15pm

Post #8 of 14 (457 views)
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yeah thats true [In reply to] Can't Post

Since the withe stagg is a reflection of Thranduil could be a symbol of a peacefull Thranduil, since he shots it an arrow (as he does in the main gate in Ereor at BOTFA) everything turnis ill

Thanks for the correction :)

The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true

Survivor to the battle for the fifth trailer

Hobbit Cinema Marathon Hero



Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea


Feb 2 2015, 4:18pm

Post #9 of 14 (463 views)
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ah that is a universal point [In reply to] Can't Post

to find someone completely coherent. :)

Well if dwarves are based on ancient jewish people as sometimes I read, this being claimed by some Tolkien scholars, well that is a way of life wich is higly superstitious.

Imagine: its bad luck to craft curve shapes in any objets, thats why dwarves make averything straight. LOL

The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true

Survivor to the battle for the fifth trailer

Hobbit Cinema Marathon Hero



Bombadil
Half-elven


Feb 2 2015, 7:15pm

Post #10 of 14 (411 views)
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JUS' About EVERYthing in the Dwarves PLAN..? [In reply to] Can't Post

Went terribly WRONG..

1. Almost EATEN by TROLLS? before they
had got very far east from Bree..

2. Almost nailed by an ORC Pack right after THAT?

3. In Rivendell? they didn't make their Elven
Hosts very
Happy by Bathing & Burning furniture..?

4. Almost CRUSHED by Stone Trolls in the Misty Mountains.

5. THEN, Captured by Goblins; soon to be Tortured, or EATEN whole?

6. Then their Captain was Almost killing right
in Front of their eyes...while they are
Helpless
high in Pine Trees.

7. Almost nailed by Beorn before Locking
him out of
his own...House?

8. They could have been LOST in Mirkwood forever, since they fell off the
ONLY...Path?

9. Giant Spiders were CLOSE to eating them, Too?

10. That TALL "PrettyBOY" Elvenking EVEN took all their Clothes & Weapons
& was ready to let them ROT in his Cells..

11. Bolg & his Boys would have killed them, too.
If it wasn't for Tauriel & Leggy coming to their Rescue..

12. BARD could easily see WHAT "WorldCLASS Losers" they were
& COULD have Refused to help without
getting a, ,a ,a ,a BIG Bribe?

There is More...BUT you get the Idea.

IT truly was a
Fool's Hope... BUT? wasn't IT? a LOT of
FUN
For any Audience sitting in a Comfortable

...Movie Theater WORLDwide?
or NOW in your Pajamas
seeing their

..Continuous
Colossal Failures
Cascading All... around them..all the WAY?

Unsure

www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"


mae govannen
Tol Eressea


Feb 3 2015, 12:19pm

Post #11 of 14 (319 views)
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That'smost certainly part of the reason...// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


mae govannen
Tol Eressea


Feb 3 2015, 12:21pm

Post #12 of 14 (318 views)
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Your general observation is quite true and valid also here...// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


Elarie
Grey Havens

Feb 3 2015, 1:24pm

Post #13 of 14 (321 views)
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It didn't seem too out of character to me [In reply to] Can't Post

(although the phrasing sounded a bit "modern") because my overall impression of Thorin is that, although he's part of that Middle-earth world where magic and prophecies are an accepted part of life, his own personality is very practical and hardheaded.

In AUJ when Oin starts talking about the omens, you can see a couple of the dwarves rolling their eyes, either in disbelief, or perhaps just tired of listening to Oin's prophecies, and Thorin himself seems more concerned about the rumors that are spreading and about someone else getting to the mountain first. Later, when Gandalf gives him Orcrist he puts aside his distaste of anything elvish and takes the sword because it's a good sword, and in Rivendell, although he has to be coaxed and he struggles with himself, in the end he lets Elrond read the map because no one else can read it.

This kind of "just get it done" attitude is pretty consistent in him throughout all three movies and fits in pretty well with the practical Thorin of the LOTR appendices, who told his father that he would go back to blacksmithing to keep his arms strong until the time came to wield a sword again.

When he shot at the white stag the look on his face was pretty unfriendly, so I think he knew darn well he was shooting at something "elvish", but if he'd hit it, I think there would have been venison for dinner. Smile

__________________

Gold is the strife of kinsmen,
and fire of the flood-tide,
and the path of the serpent.

(Old Icelandic Fe rune poem)


moreorless
Gondor

Feb 3 2015, 3:42pm

Post #14 of 14 (337 views)
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I would tend to agree [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
(although the phrasing sounded a bit "modern") because my overall impression of Thorin is that, although he's part of that Middle-earth world where magic and prophecies are an accepted part of life, his own personality is very practical and hardheaded.

In AUJ when Oin starts talking about the omens, you can see a couple of the dwarves rolling their eyes, either in disbelief, or perhaps just tired of listening to Oin's prophecies, and Thorin himself seems more concerned about the rumors that are spreading and about someone else getting to the mountain first. Later, when Gandalf gives him Orcrist he puts aside his distaste of anything elvish and takes the sword because it's a good sword, and in Rivendell, although he has to be coaxed and he struggles with himself, in the end he lets Elrond read the map because no one else can read it.

This kind of "just get it done" attitude is pretty consistent in him throughout all three movies and fits in pretty well with the practical Thorin of the LOTR appendices, who told his father that he would go back to blacksmithing to keep his arms strong until the time came to wield a sword again.

When he shot at the white stag the look on his face was pretty unfriendly, so I think he knew darn well he was shooting at something "elvish", but if he'd hit it, I think there would have been venison for dinner. Smile


You look back to that scene and Thorin's real concern is that Smaug hasn't been seen for 60 years plus I think you could well make the case that the Ravens returning is more than superstition but a potential response to Smaug being dead or as it turns out inactive.

Indeed I think you could argue that Thorin's very pratical and pragmatic nature is somewhat similar to the likes of Boromir and Saurman in LOTR and a hint at personal faults.

 
 

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