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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Feb 1 2015, 5:56pm
Post #26 of 63
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I think we would be on tenuous ground to suggest features not mentioned in TH or indeed any book published by the author were overly vital to the dwarves depiction in this story.
I will go and have a rootle though as I always find such things interesting - thanks for the steer.
(This post was edited by Spriggan on Feb 1 2015, 5:57pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Feb 1 2015, 6:07pm
Post #27 of 63
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Well, you yourself cited Tolkien on Dwarven stockiness. In The Silmarillion, when we read about the origin of the Dwarves we learn that their features were rude approximations of Aule's poorly-remembered visions of the Children of Iluvatar. And Dwarves took great pride in their beards, while Kili's (in the fiilms) is little more than stubble.
Of course, I am just making some observations. It was an earlier poster who was being critical.
"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.
"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet." - Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)
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PredatoR
Bree
Feb 1 2015, 6:14pm
Post #28 of 63
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I myself do not like Kili at all. He doesn't look like a dwarf at all.
And Dain showed and proved us that old Dwarf can be very charismatic as well so Thorin should have looked much older IMO.
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smtfhw
Lorien
Feb 1 2015, 6:27pm
Post #29 of 63
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...not as damaging as having a beard and getting it caught in your bowstring when shooting your bow. That would really hurt!
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Feb 1 2015, 6:46pm
Post #30 of 63
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Is what is mentioned - and there doesn't seem to be any great contradiction in the films.
Are you thinking of this quote from the Sil: "And Aulë made the Dwarves even as they still are, because the forms of the Children who were to come were unclear to his mind, and because the power of Melkor was yet over the Earth; and he wished therefore that they should be strong and unyielding."
If so, I think taking it as a description of their facial features is a considerable stretch - but maybe this is the wrong quote?
I couldn't see anything else in the Sil, whilst HOME only seems to offer "squat in stature".
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Feb 1 2015, 8:26pm
Post #31 of 63
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Tolkien did not go to any great length to describe dwarves beyond individual differences in appearance and dress (although Elves do find them unlovely to loook upon). He seems to have felt it unnecessary as the dwarves of folklore are already imprinted on our collective subconscious. We have a strong impression of what dwarves are supposed to look like and we don't need them described in detail. Even the illustrations of Thorin and Company done for the Japanese edition of The Hobbit portray dwarves that are easily recognizable to Western eyes.
"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.
"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet." - Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Feb 1 2015, 8:27pm)
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marillaraina
Rohan
Feb 1 2015, 9:28pm
Post #32 of 63
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...not as damaging as having a beard and getting it caught in your bowstring when shooting your bow. That would really hurt!
Very true indeed. Even Tauriel's hair came "thisclose" to getting stuck in her bow in one scene in DOS, if Kili had a long beard was trying to get off a bunch of shots quickly, ouch.
And I'm sure there are dwarves with hair growth disorders. (I still wish I could find that funny thing from tumblr where the dwarves and elves in Mirkwood are arguing about how to tell males and females from their respective races apart, so funny, that's touched upon)
(This post was edited by marillaraina on Feb 1 2015, 9:29pm)
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Elarie
Grey Havens
Feb 1 2015, 10:13pm
Post #33 of 63
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Who are all these people who think they "know" what dwarves look like?
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These dwarf vs. non-dwarf arguments have been going on for ages now, but I've never seen a single quote from Tolkien to back up anyone's theory about what dwarves "should" look like.
Short, strong, and bearded are the only Tolkien descriptions that I can recall. If he ever gave a more exact description of their faces, could somebody please quote it?
__________________
Gold is the strife of kinsmen,
and fire of the flood-tide,
and the path of the serpent.
(Old Icelandic Fe rune poem)
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Feb 1 2015, 10:14pm
Post #34 of 63
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I am like DM on this type of thing. If I do not "Notice" anything its right. I have no idea whether Dain is CGI or not what he did worked for me.Voice is really important to me and casting the Dwarves voices as tough Midland, Northern English or Scottish accents fitted well.
I have nothing but admiration for the 13 men who inhabited their Dwarven prosthetics.
I also do not notice the script or the behaviour until it feels wrong. "I can not guarantee his safety" was superb but there were far more sophisticated ways of showing these grim sombre "men", who occasionally let their hair down, at odds with Rivendell than appeared in the film. That I did notice.
After watching all three films I also apply Phillippa Boyens view of story telling to the 13 Dwarves. If you remove something from the book source does it affect the development of the story telling.
What I would like to have seen happen is the Dwarves actually talk to each other a great deal more. If you look at fantastic ensemble movies like Kelly's Hero's or The Dambusters, which PJ is going to remake, its the interplay across the group that works so well and informs you about the characters. I remember one scene where Dori chided his younger brother that told you a good deal about both of them and their relationship in a split second.
We know what Balin's reaction was to walking through the hidden door but I cannot remember anything about Gloin The Treasurer inside Erebor.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
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marillaraina
Rohan
Feb 2 2015, 12:24am
Post #35 of 63
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I have no issues with the dwarves looks any of them
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Is what is mentioned - and there doesn't seem to be any great contradiction in the films.
Are you thinking of this quote from the Sil: "And Aulë made the Dwarves even as they still are, because the forms of the Children who were to come were unclear to his mind, and because the power of Melkor was yet over the Earth; and he wished therefore that they should be strong and unyielding."
If so, I think taking it as a description of their facial features is a considerable stretch - but maybe this is the wrong quote?
I couldn't see anything else in the Sil, whilst HOME only seems to offer "squat in stature".
I've always said there is no reason dwarves can't be as diverse in looks, within certain limits of proportion and height, as humans.
That said with regards to the dwarves being referred to, specifically the direct ruling Line of Durin - admittedly in a sort of humorous manner, I've liked to think, IF dwarves truly do consider the stockiest stature, stoutist features and biggest beards most attractive, maybe in the dwarven culture they are like the Hapsburgs, at least in looks. :D
Maybe it all came home to roost in the last couple generations, with Thorin and Kili being the most "unnattractive" of this relatively unnattractive line(the last real looker in the family being Thror). :D Sure Thorin has a long nose but he is relatively fine featured overall and quite tall. Fili is very plain but at least is shorter and Dwalin is rather tall and slightly less stocky as well perhaps he also has some of the family curse. We have no idea what Frerin looked like or Dis so who knows how ugly they were. This is one of the reasons(only one of them:) Thorin has a soft spot for Kili, he knows growing up he was somewhat protected by his status and the retinue of royal retainers from the more hurtful implications of his homeliness but Kili, being esp. ugly, would not have that protection and he would try to provide just a little bit of a shield for his youngest nephew's upbeat, generous nature from some of the world's shallow cruelty.
And Bofur is a common person example of how sometimes there are just some very ugly dwarves. He's learned to accept it with good humor though, looking out for his seriously injured but used to be quite the looker cousin Bifur and just enjoying the good fortune of his hotty cousin Bombur.
(This post was edited by marillaraina on Feb 2 2015, 12:27am)
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Feb 2 2015, 2:00am
Post #36 of 63
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Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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Pandallo
Rivendell
Feb 2 2015, 2:08am
Post #37 of 63
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That's an interesting way to think about it I guess we don't see what other Dwarves thought of some of the Company so there may be something to what you're saying.
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Feb 2 2015, 3:36am
Post #38 of 63
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if you look at any real world race
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or group of genetically or culturally connected people, there will be some things that all hold in common, more or less, but many many individual choices in fashion and hairstyle...
artistically, the stereotypical "dwarf" is a kind of degenerate myth, a fairy tale told so many times it's drilled into us to expect something from Duck Dynasty... bleah... not creative or interesting.
Creating interesting designs with a sense of individuality and a glimpse at Dwarf ideas of culture, fashion etc makes for a more interesting film.
As for "hot dwarves"... not only do we have to appeal to modern audiences here, but...
i have one word.
Paedomorphosis.
Juvenile characteristics. think of your puppy with its big eyes and short muzzle and floppy ears. Think of how most primate babies resemble each other (baby gorillas look frighteningly like baby humans) Think of a toddler with its big eyes and small jaw. Think of how most teenagers look very different from when they are forty.
Now, consider Kili as a young Dwarf who still has juvenile characteristics. He'd have grown into a Balin eventually.
Na 'Aear, na 'Aear! Mýl 'lain nallol, I sûl ribiel a i falf 'loss reviol...
To the sea, to the sea, the white gulls are crying, the wind is blowing and the white foam is flying...
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Feb 2 2015, 3:40am
Post #39 of 63
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not any I know..........
and consider this list...
Benedict Cumberbatch, Matin Freeman, Ken Stott, Chris Evans, Idris Elba, Will Ferrell, Woody Allen, Will Smith, Peter Jackson, JRR Tolkien (young or old) Sir Ian McKellen, Sir Patrick Stewart, Leonard Nimoy, Jackie Chan...
sorry, I can tell them apart...
Na 'Aear, na 'Aear! Mýl 'lain nallol, I sûl ribiel a i falf 'loss reviol...
To the sea, to the sea, the white gulls are crying, the wind is blowing and the white foam is flying...
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smtfhw
Lorien
Feb 2 2015, 8:08am
Post #40 of 63
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It works for me...
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CathrineB
Rohan
Feb 2 2015, 9:06am
Post #41 of 63
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I still don't get why people made/make such a big deal about some lesser "dwarf" looking dwarves. Like others say here, humans comes in so many different looks and sizes too. Doesn't make a short round person less human than a tall supermodel. Just different looking.
And these are fictional dwarves in a fictional world. WHY can't they look like that? Like yeah, Kili in particular looks not much like a dwarf, but I think - so what? I'm just happy they all don't look identical.
Thorin could have had more of a beard yes and I think it would have been good to have the reasoning for the short beard mentioned in the movies too if anything.
But seeing how Bofur, Thorin, Kili and Rob-Fili looked pre-movie I am so relieved that they did back down on the prostetics/replaced them. Bofur lost all his charm under that forehead, Thorin looked downright creepy, Rob looked like a cosplayer and Kili looked like a mix of a Star Trek character and a dude from the stone age.
I for one thinks the likes of Ori tends to look so bland in the face at times because Adam's face hid behind a wall of prostetics. Getting to see more human expressions on the tree Durins in particular I think was necessary. I understand the wish to make Thorin younger than the book though he does look like a small human at times (in those dwarven Kingly robes I think he looks every bit of a dwarf though), I buy that Kili is young and Fili I think look very dwarven despite the short beard. Helps that he's a little stockier and short of course, but he's still young and by human standards not terrible looking. I think they got a nice balance on him. Bofur... Don't get me started. I adore how he looks because it helps seperating the dwarves.
Damn okay I'm done 
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Anubis
Rivendell
Feb 2 2015, 10:07am
Post #42 of 63
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Visually, I liked most of the 13 dwarves very much, but it would have been a nice touch to add more diversity among the dwarf armies´ ranks. I mean, as far as I recall, the dwarf soldiers were all Gimli clones with distinct noses (though I do remember seeing a black-bearded dwarf amidst the chaos in Azanulbizar, DOS EE), while the dwarves that accompany Thorin have visually nothing to do with each other.
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Macfeast
Rohan
Feb 2 2015, 10:55am
Post #43 of 63
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Yeah. A great opportunity to inject a little more diversity into the dwarven race, unutilized.
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I mean, I can barely tell the Iron Hills army, and the Erebor army (before Smaug, and at Moria) apart. All the difference I can think of is the differing shapes of their shields; The Erebor dwarves have octagonal shields, while the dwarves of the Iron Hills carry kite shields. The color-schemes don't help, either; Whatever differences there might be, is blurred out by the very prominent grey in both armies. Their faces, meanwhile - when we get to see them - are all of the traditionally longbearded variety. A rank and file dwarven soldier is basically a blob of metal in the shape of a dwarf, with a beard sticking out from under his helmet.
Compare that, to the armies of Rohan and Gondor. Two different groups of people, and it really shows. The Dale- and Lake-town guard likewise have a very distinct visual identity, when compared to Rohan and Gondor.
Dwarven diversity largely seems to exist only within Thorin and Company, the rest of the dwarven race being hewn from the generic fantasy dwarf-template, the one that PJ and team supposedly were breaking away from. I am left to wonder; Were they going for diversity among the dwarven race, or were they going for genericness with but a few cinematically convenient exceptions?
(This post was edited by Macfeast on Feb 2 2015, 10:58am)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Feb 2 2015, 11:14am
Post #44 of 63
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Undoubtedly the latter, I would think.
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But there isn't anything especially unusual in core characters receiving more design attention that the third dwarf in row 35 of the background army.
There is also the element of uniform about it. Though I think the above is the real explanation, once we have our dwarves in standard uniforms, armour and weaponary then there wouldn't be that much difference showing in any case.
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
Feb 2 2015, 11:39am
Post #45 of 63
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The variety and dereness of PJ and co in the design part has given hobbit dwarves a great depth in culture, not such in elves, who, espite great designs too, are more alike between each other
The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true
Survivor to the battle for the fifth trailer
Hobbit Cinema Marathon Hero
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dormouse
Half-elven
Feb 2 2015, 11:43am
Post #46 of 63
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But the armies of Rohan and Gondor, and Dale and Laketown people...
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.. are human so come naturally in different shapes, sizes and colouring without requiring much more help than the odd wig or facial hair and a costume. Individual dwarves, on the other hand, needed hours of work every day on prosthetics, make-up, padding, hands, boots, wigs.... And after all that, how much did we see of any of them beyond a fleeting glimpse? You have to ask how practical it would have been when all that work has to be paid for....
Where they could they did show a lot more differences than you allow: in Dale before the dragon came, for example, and among the dead dwarves in Erebor.
So I'd rather look at it in less negative way - they used the 13 main characters to highlight the diversity that exists among the dwarves...
(And I can't help but smile that the filmmakers are simultaneously criticised for making some dwarves look different and for making all the rest look alike...! )
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Macfeast
Rohan
Feb 2 2015, 11:59am
Post #48 of 63
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Obviously there is going to be an element of cinematic sensibility to it, whether it is Thorin or Théoden, and their respective background armies, that is designed; This is a movie, after all.
The thing is though, the third dwarf in row 35 doesn't strictly need to look distinct, any more than the unnamed background dwarves #26, #104, and #268 that I mentioned earlier do... but it wouldn't hurt if they did, either. If the aformentioned dwarves look a little less like the traditional fantasy dwarf, and a little more like Kíli, then so what? It doesn't hurt the story; If anything, it validates Kíli's design, makes it a better fit with the world that is presented to us, and less of a look-at-me-I'm-important cinematic feature. It may very well be intended to be the latter - again, this is a movie, after all - but I prefer it when the seams of storytelling are better hidden than that. It is easy to make a character look distinct, just give him a feature like a bright pink tophat; The question is, does it fit within the context of the world, does it make sense that this character, and only this character, displays this feature?
As for uniformity... within each separate army, sure, but surely there was room for a little more difference between the Iron Hills army, and the Erebor army? If not for narrative purposes, then at least for the richness of worldbuilding? So many other design elements are there for the richness it brings to the world, so why not with the two dwarven armies? They don't strictly need to look different, to fulfill their narrative purposes... but it wouldn't hurt if they did, either. Look at the Riders of Rohan, and the Guard of Minas Tirith; Two distinct armies, with two distinct looks. Even within their ranks, there is a little bit of diversity... and it makes the world feel all the more rich.
It's not about narrative need, it's about worldbuilding... something which I generally find that PJ and team excel at.
(This post was edited by Macfeast on Feb 2 2015, 12:05pm)
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Macfeast
Rohan
Feb 2 2015, 12:01pm
Post #49 of 63
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The dwarven diversity I ask for...
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... would require less work, not more (way back, I actually suggested that PJ might do his dwarven cameo with his natural beard). Less beards, for example, to show that Kíli isn't alone in displaying that trait. I don't find it believable that he would be the only beardless male dwarf in Middle-earth we get a glimpse of. Surely there was opportunity to show a few of them in Erebor, before the dragon came? Or how about having a few dwarven soldiers that don't have a beard sticking out from under their helmets? Less work there as well, just stick a helmet on top of one of the actors, no prosthetic work needed.
The question of "how much do we see beyond a fleeting glimpse" applies to many of the small details that I appreciate, as well. PJ and team are really good at the small details, so at times like this, when the small details don't fit, it doesn't feel right.
(This post was edited by Macfeast on Feb 2 2015, 12:14pm)
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CathrineB
Rohan
Feb 2 2015, 1:11pm
Post #50 of 63
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I like that idea. Even if there had been just a background dwarf here and there maybe in Erebor when Smaug came that had less beard or so.
I do understand why the armies as a whole end up looking like an identical blob of dwarves because designing something unique for 300 dwarves can be a bit much.
Maybe they took the whole "there's so few dwarven children in Middle Earth so Kili's the only one with the lack of beard" a bit too literal?  All while slamming three of them into the Company alone though - not quite seeing a point making Ori that young, but yeah well. That's a whole 'nother discussion.
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